OT: Current Affairs and Politics

[Bandwagon]

I believe there was a fair bit of controversy around the morning after pill when it was first introduced here. Then health minister Uncle Tones ( aka the Mad Monk ) banned it, a ban very much on religious / moral anti abortion position.

It's just a battle they lost.

 

[Gronk]

I believe there was a fair bit of controversy around the morning after pill when it was first introduced here. Then health minister Uncle Tones ( aka the Mad Monk ) banned it, a ban very much on religious / moral anti abortion position.

It's just a battle they lost.

Indeed, I was moreso making an observation that the MA pill is no longer considered to be infanicide by the pro-lifers. It may be a battle that they lost, but why abandon the core value ? Fluidity I guess.

 

[Twizzle]

I thought Berocca was the morning after pill

 

[hindy111]

I have lost count of the amount of people I have inseminated.

s**t

 

[hindy111]

I feel like abortion should be an option but in most situations responsibility should be the one chosen.
I wonder if abortion rates are up due to Tinder?

 

[Bandwagon]

Indeed, I was moreso making an observation that the MA pill is no longer considered to be infanicide by the pro-lifers. It may be a battle that they lost, but why abandon the core value ? Fluidity I guess.

I think there's an argument there that separates the religious aspect from the moral aspect, as without the religious aspect of the zygote having a soul, it is unquestionably just a bunch of cells, and completely devoid of any form of consciousness. I also think there is room in a reasonable debate for the religious to find points where they may concede that pressing their values upon others is a step to far, despite even deeply held beliefs to the contrary.

The reality is the whole debate around abortion gets more controversial the further along a pregnancy becomes, because as the fetus develops, it becomes less of a fetus, and more of human being, so I think that people can be entirely consistent in having an anti abortion stance, yet accept a termination of pregnancy at such an early stage of development.

Just as you can find pro choice advocates getting less confident or even abandoning support in the last trimester for example. I mean technically the difference between abortion and infanticide can be defined by whether or not a baby has been delivered, and I doubt very much you would describe a pro choice individual being against the idea of termination of a pregnancy a mere day before the birth is due, as having "abandoned a core value".

This is often the problem when we hear cries of hypocrisy based upon black and white determinations of an ethical or moral stance, there simply is no allowance for nuance, which is rather unfortunate.

 

[Gronk]

I think there's an argument there that separates the religious aspect from the moral aspect, as without the religious aspect of the zygote having a soul, it is unquestionably just a bunch of cells, and completely devoid of any form of consciousness. I also think there is room in a reasonable debate for the religious to find points where they may concede that pressing their values upon others is a step to far, despite even deeply held beliefs to the contrary.

The reality is the whole debate around abortion gets more controversial the further along a pregnancy becomes, because as the fetus develops, it becomes less of a fetus, and more of human being, so I think that people can be entirely consistent in having an anti abortion stance, yet accept a termination of pregnancy at such an early stage of development.

Just as you can find pro choice advocates getting less confident or even abandoning support in the last trimester for example. I mean technically the difference between abortion and infanticide can be defined by whether or not a baby has been delivered, and I doubt very much you would describe a pro choice individual being against the idea of termination of a pregnancy a mere day before the birth is due, as having "abandoned a core value".

This is often the problem when we hear cries of hypocrisy based upon black and white determinations of an ethical or moral stance, there simply is no allowance for nuance, which is rather unfortunate.

Beyond the *Plan B* pill which I was referring to as an over the counter medical termination, you know that women can access RU-486 which is available for up to 9 weeks of gestation (the longer you leave it the more likely you are of needing a medical evacuation).

So the conundrum continues. It's not just a bunch of cells.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Evildoers ? Like a 19 yo who is doing his compulsory national service for his country ? He pays the price ? Kinda like the foetus in an aborted pregnancy I guess. Collateral damage.

outa mind outa sight on that pregnancy. If a woman was pregnant with the zygote in utero, then a consciousness objector to abortion should *never* dable with the MA pill through fear that it might be killing a human.

I dare say anti-choicers tend to be against the morning after pill as well. But no point fighting a battle that's been lost.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Indeed, I was moreso making an observation that the MA pill is no longer considered to be infanicide by the pro-lifers. It may be a battle that they lost, but why abandon the core value ? Fluidity I guess.

Have they abandoned the value? Do you expect them to start bombing pharmacies? Just because it's legal doesn't mean everyone uses it.

 

[Bandwagon]

Beyond the *Plan B* pill which I was referring to as an over the counter medical termination, you know that women can access RU-486 which is available for up to 9 weeks of gestation (the longer you leave it the more likely you are of needing a medical evacuation).

So the conundrum continues. It's not just a bunch of cells.

Yeah, that's nice. But really it doesn't address anything much of what I said in the post you quoted. Least not the crux of it, which was summed up rather neatly I thought in the final sentence.

Some may find nine weeks as acceptable, some may not, the fetus is about 2 1/2 CM long at that point, but has taken on a kinda mongoloid human shape, so again it's not a black and white argument.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Beyond the *Plan B* pill which I was referring to as an over the counter medical termination, you know that women can access RU-486 which is available for up to 9 weeks of gestation (the longer you leave it the more likely you are of needing a medical evacuation).

So the conundrum continues. It's not just a bunch of cells.

In the absence of a soul we're all technically just a bunch of cells.

 

[Gronk]

I dare say anti-choicers tend to be against the morning after pill as well. But no point fighting a battle that's been lost.

Have they abandoned the value? Do you expect them to start bombing pharmacies? Just because it's legal doesn't mean everyone uses it.

Well you have declared your hand as being a pro-lifer. You think people shouldn't stick their nose in when they see someone harming someone else?

 

[Gronk]

In the absence of a soul we're all technically just a bunch of cells.

Ok so what's the problem with terminating a pregnancy at 4/5/6/7/8/9 weeks ?

 

[hindy111]

If a child is raised in a family who don't want him how do you think his life is?
We are all born md living and we are all dying. At some point none of us will exist.
The best you can hope for is to die in your sleep.

 

[Bandwagon]

In the absence of a soul we're all technically just a bunch of cells.

I would say consciousness rather than soul, as for me that defines the difference between human, and human being ( "being" being the operative word there ). But then I'm not the least bit religious.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Well you have declared your hand as being a pro-lifer. You think people shouldn't stick their nose in when they see someone harming someone else?

I already told you I'm pro-choice. But if I was pro-life I would try to make sure abortion stayed illegal. If it was legalised I'd get on with my life knowing I'd done my bit. Maybe support future attempts to re-criminalise it. Beyond that what can you do? Few people think terrorism is an acceptable way to change policy.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Ok so what's the problem with terminating a pregnancy at 4/5/6/7/8/9 weeks ?

Agreed

 

[Poupou Escobar]

I would say consciousness rather than soul, as for me that defines the difference between human, and human being ( "being" being the operative word there ). But then I'm not the least bit religious.

Animals are conscious and I've got no problem eating them.

 

[Gronk]

Animals are conscious and I've got no problem eating them.

Vegetables squeal when you pick them.

 

[Bazal]

Vegetables squeal when you pick them.

Only while you're peeling them away from the chair...