Signings for 2020 and future looking team

[muzby]

Simple clause in a simple contract
If you are unable to fulfil your contractual arrangements due to non work related issues or incidents the company reserves the right to terminate your employment.

But he can and wants to fulfil his commitments and the club want him to fulfil his commitments too..

It’s the NRL who have enforced the stand down.. Which means it’s work related..

 

[Old Timer]

Actually, based on those links I posted, it appears as though AFB was also unable to fulfill his contractual obligations as he was deregistered from the NRL for 18 months. In my opinion, the decision to terminate his contract looks more like a commercial decision than a pure contractual breach. They've used that as a tool to execute the termination. I'd suggest the 3 month gap between being found guilty and sacking was the club waiting for the NRL to decide what action they were going to take before making a decision.

Your summation could well be 100% correct.
It could also be that the club did the perfunctory things and ultimately finding the offence once proven to be repugnant and then terminated him.
Official reason v actual reason who knows?

 

[Old Timer]

But he can and wants to fulfil his commitments and the club want him to fulfil his commitments too..

It’s the NRL who have enforced the stand down.. Which means it’s work related..

Not a case of wants to simple case of can he.
If we terminated him and he then had a crack at the club they could say
Are you able to play as per your contract.
Jack says no I can’t.
We say why not
Jack says the NRL won’t let me
We say ok we will give you there number and wish you well in your case against them

 

[True_Believer]

Simple clause in a simple contract
If you are unable to fulfil your contractual arrangements due to non work related issues or incidents the company reserves the right to terminate your employment.
Re retrenchment I am purely pointing out the societal v commercial realities ie don’t like it, don’t condone it but understand it.

I'm not sure you could include that in a contract. So if I was in a car accident on the weekend and was unable to attend work for a couple of months due to being bed ridden or in a coma for a couple of months, my work could turn around and sack me? Seems a bit harsh. I wouldn't be signing that as it pretty much opens the door for the employer to abuse that.

And the fact JDB can't currently fulfil his contract is only due to the fact that a couple of factors are out of his control. Firstly due to the NRL policy, and secondly due to the delay in the court case. I really can't see how you could legally sack him.

 

[Old Timer]

I'm not sure you could include that in a contract. So if I was in a car accident on the weekend and was unable to attend work for a couple of months due to being bed ridden or in a coma for a couple of months, my work could turn around and sack me? Seems a bit harsh. I wouldn't be signing that as it pretty much opens the door for the employer to abuse that.

And the fact JDB can't currently fulfil his contract is only due to the fact that a couple of factors are out of his control. Firstly due to the NRL policy, and secondly due to the delay in the court case. I really can't see how you could legally sack him.

I would suspect if not already in place many clubs will now be using contracts with almost that exact clause.
No professional club is going to leave themselves open to what we are currently enduring with JDB.
If Lewis Hamilton lost his licence and was unable to drive and his future was uncertain how long do you think before Mercedes would replace him?
Companies cannot be expected to keep employment open forever pending non work related outcomes that affect your capacity to work.
Yes there should be an element of empathy but how long is a piece of string?
In many ways what we are discussing here is hard nosed professionalism V it will all be OK and it doesn't matter if it isn't and if it isn't we will work out what to do then.

 

[True_Believer]

If Lewis Hamilton lost his licence and was unable to drive and his future was uncertain how long do you think before Mercedes would replace him?

Very different scenario. Him losing his license directly impacts his ability to work (given he is a driver) - as a result of his actions outside of work. JDBs actions outside of work don't impact his ability to do his job - EXCEPT that the NRL have forced him to stand down. If he wasn't stood down, he could still perform it. In the example you gave, Lewis wouldn't be able to do it because he has lost his license whether team Merc decide to stand him down or not.

Here is a pretty good link referencing JDB's case:

https://www.people2people.com.au/blog/2019/05/can-an-employee-facing-criminal-charges-be-terminated

It talks about including a clause to terminate if he is charged - not because he can't fulfil his duties. Having said that though, the example they provided shows that JDB would have a case against the club should they chose to terminate him - even if there is a clause. Of particular interest is the comment:

“what an employee does on his or her own time is a matter for him or her. There is no presumption that a criminal conviction alone is a valid reason for termination of employment, particularly where the criminal offence was committed outside of work. Even conduct outside of work involving criminal offences does not, alone, warrant dismissal”.

And again, it draws similar parallels to the AFB case where, if there is such a clause in the contracts, it would likely have been included in both contracts. And the club has taken the stance in both cases not to execute termination on that clause until they are certain of the outcomes.

And I'd be surprised if clubs were legally allowed to include clauses to terminate players due to not fulfilling their duties. It would be a legal minefield and difficult to enforce.

Sorry OT, but I tend to agree with muzby's view on this. It appears to me like you are taking 2 different views on different players who have very similar cases.

 

[Old Timer]

Very different scenario. Him losing his license directly impacts his ability to work (given he is a driver) - as a result of his actions outside of work. JDBs actions outside of work don't impact his ability to do his job - EXCEPT that the NRL have forced him to stand down. If he wasn't stood down, he could still perform it. In the example you gave, Lewis wouldn't be able to do it because he has lost his license whether team Merc decide to stand him down or not.

Here is a pretty good link referencing JDB's case:

https://www.people2people.com.au/blog/2019/05/can-an-employee-facing-criminal-charges-be-terminated

It talks about including a clause to terminate if he is charged - not because he can't fulfil his duties. Having said that though, the example they provided shows that JDB would have a case against the club should they chose to terminate him - even if there is a clause. Of particular interest is the comment:

“what an employee does on his or her own time is a matter for him or her. There is no presumption that a criminal conviction alone is a valid reason for termination of employment, particularly where the criminal offence was committed outside of work. Even conduct outside of work involving criminal offences does not, alone, warrant dismissal”.

And again, it draws similar parallels to the AFB case where, if there is such a clause in the contracts, it would likely have been included in both contracts. And the club has taken the stance in both cases not to execute termination on that clause until they are certain of the outcomes.

And I'd be surprised if clubs were legally allowed to include clauses to terminate players due to not fulfilling their duties. It would be a legal minefield and difficult to enforce.

Sorry OT, but I tend to agree with muzby's view on this. It appears to me like you are taking 2 different views on different players who have very similar cases.

I am fine with you not agreeing so need to be sorry.
My example with Hamilton is to show the professionalism of 1 organisation v our club and I maintain that that scenario is similar. De Belin has in fact lost his NRL liscence which is required for him play regardless of whether we stand him down or not. If he left and went to another club at this point in time (doubtful anyone would take him) he is still unable to play due to a governing body's overarching laws and decisions then it beggars belief that he should be an albatross and hung around our necks until sometime of someone else's choosing. In fact it would be interesting to know if JDB did tare up his contract with us and another club was willing to take sign him whether the NRL would allow that contract to be registered. Again I don't believe we have pushed the NRL hard enough to clarify these issues.
It is all very difficult and terribly unfortunate but I cannot accept the fact that an employer has no redress for someone on their payroll who cannot do his job when it is not a workers comp or similar situation.
If ultimately the fight for JDB as well as our club is with the NRL then by all means have that fight and get some proper clarity around the situation.

 

[True_Believer]

I am fine with you not agreeing so need to be sorry.
My example with Hamilton is to show the professionalism of 1 organisation v our club and I maintain that that scenario is similar. De Belin has in fact lost his NRL liscence which is required for him play regardless of whether we stand him down or not. If he left and went to another club at this point in time (doubtful anyone would take him) he is still unable to play due to a governing body's overarching laws and decisions then it beggars belief that he should be an albatross and hung around our necks until sometime of someone else's choosing. In fact it would be interesting to know if JDB did tare up his contract with us and another club was willing to take sign him whether the NRL would allow that contract to be registered. Again I don't believe we have pushed the NRL hard enough to clarify these issues.
It is all very difficult and terribly unfortunate but I cannot accept the fact that an employer has no redress for someone on their payroll who cannot do his job when it is not a workers comp or similar situation.
If ultimately the fight for JDB as well as our club is with the NRL then by all means have that fight and get some proper clarity around the situation.

Fair enough. Maybe they can sack him, but is that not the exact same scenario we had with AFB? He was deregistered for 18 months and the club did terminate his contract? Like I said, I can't see how that is different. AFB lost his license to play as well - going by you comments here, we should be OK to sack him given he couldn't fulfill his duties - which we did. I struggle to see how you can differentiate.

 

[Old Timer]

Fair enough. Maybe they can sack him, but is that not the exact same scenario we had with AFB? He was deregistered for 18 months and the club did terminate his contract? Like I said, I can't see how that is different. AFB lost his license to play as well - going by you comments here, we should be OK to sack him given he couldn't fulfill his duties - which we did. I struggle to see how you can differentiate.

It is a subtle point of difference maybe I just don't make it well enough.
AFB IMO was a young man who made a huge mistake and his subsequent actions were deserving of rehabilitation and therefore IMO he should have been retained. Compassionate social decision where club, persons concerned and greater public all benefit.
JDB can't be rehabilitated as he is not guilty of anything other than the fact that he can't play football. So a purely commercial decision is perfectly viable in this situation.
Anyway which ever way you look at it, it has been a very sad time for everyone involved and the club hasn't helped anything by its actions.

 

[Old Timer]

The Latimore clone "all round good guy, team man, been here before, yada yada" replacement frontrunner has emerged form the pack.
I now know why we have kept the spot open and let Robson go and did the smoke screen with Isaac Luke.
Cameron King is available.

 

[getsmarty]

Standards set high under new training regime
St George Illawarra Dragons players Josh Kerr, Jordan Pereira and Tariq Sims discuss the high standards implemented by the new trainers this pre-season.

https://www.dragons.com.au/news/2019/11/14/standards-set-high-under-new-training-regime/

 

[getsmarty]

DRAGONS


'More like a drill camp': New training staff turn up heat on Dragons
Author
Brad Walter NRL.com Senior Reporter
Timestamp
Wed 13 Nov 2019, 06:44 PM

St George Illawarra players were exhausted after completing a beep test and 1.2km run in scorching temperatures on their second day of pre-season training but new trainer Adrian Jimenez ensured there was no respite.

"We get penalised for someone putting their hands on their hips," prop Josh Kerr said. "This is my fourth pre-season and it is very different from the last three, it’s a lot harder."

The Dragons announced eight changes to their coaching and performance staff after an end-of-season review, including the appointment of Jimenez as strength and conditioning coach.

He was at Parramatta last season and previously spent 11 seasons at Melbourne Storm, while he has also worked with Penrith and the Kiwis.

Although he is renowned for his brutal training sessions, players don’t complain because Jimenez’s track record suggests he gets results.

The Dragons have been pushed hard since their return. dragons.com.au
"It is a whole different look and whole different discipline," Kerr said. "It’s tough and you hate it but in the long run you know it is going to be the best thing for you.

"He is tough but he has been in very successful systems and they [Dragons management] have obviously seen that and wanted to bring him, and you can tell why."

Kerr was too fatigued to know the identity of the teammate who was guilty of putting his hands on his hips but he said it was a test of each player's mental strength not to repeat the offence.



Five key match-ups of the Dragons' 2020 draw

"I was looking at the ground and I was legit dizzy so I was just in the robot zone so as soon you hear penalty I was just like ‘let’s get it done’," he said.

"We had to do a commando roll, where you get three people, one stays in the middle and you have to roll. I wouldn’t say it was military-like but it feels that way. They’re going to make it more like a drill camp, which is good because we are setting very high standards for ourselves."

Kerr is already fitter than in previous pre-seasons and recorded a personal best in the beep test but by the end of the session he was looking for an ice bath.

Back-rower Jackson Ford was among those to impress in the 1.2km run but some players were clearly struggling.

Dragons forward Josh Kerr. dragons.com.au
"It is a shock to the system, you train for the off-season because you want to make sure you are in good nick when you come back but pre-season is designed to break you down physically and mentally," Kerr said.

After earning selection for the Indigenous All Stars and making his NRL debut last season, Kerr is aiming to become a regular member of St George Illawarra’s first-grade squad in 2020 and took encouragement from his performance review with coach Paul McGregor.



Sims: The only way is up

"He even said ‘I would love for you to be a starting front-rower, if you keep progressing the way that you are and improving and doing all of the little things right you will get there," Kerr said.

"A lot of times I sat in front of the TV as a kid watching NRL and to be on TV and playing was a dream come true. A big thing for me and my family was to hear Ray Warren say my name, that was crazy.

"I was very grateful I was playing. I’d love to play every single game during the season."


https://www.dragons.com.au/news/201...p-new-training-staff-turn-up-heat-on-dragons/

 

[Crush]

Cam Mcinnes to play in the backrow to accommodate Issac Luke?
Bizarre.

 

[muzby]

That feeling you get when you come back from holidays and suddenly remember that McGregor is your coach:

 

[BLM01]

Cam Mcinnes to play in the backrow to accommodate Issac Luke?
Bizarre.

He will be our Cameron Murray, Angus Crichton or Victor Radley...I suppose
Cmon Bully..show the Dragons you still have what it takes at your twilight.

 

[BLM01]

Standards set high under new training regime
St George Illawarra Dragons players Josh Kerr, Jordan Pereira and Tariq Sims discuss the high standards implemented by the new trainers this pre-season.

https://www.dragons.com.au/news/2019/11/14/standards-set-high-under-new-training-regime/

What were the standards in previous years. Not so high?

 

[Frank Facer]

Cam Mcinnes to play in the backrow to accommodate Issac Luke?
Bizarre.

I would have rather we kept Robson than signed Luke. I would have even let McInnes leave, to keep Robson. We still would have had Hunt as a back up hooker or starting hooker. Sailor would be another 5/8 option. With either a hooker, half, 5/8 combo of

9 Robson/Hunt
7 Norman
6 Hunt/Sailor

would have provided us with more flare.

I am not knocking McInnes. I think he is one of the better hookers in the game.

 

[Frank Facer]

He will be our Cameron Murray, Angus Crichton or Victor Radley...I suppose
Cmon Bully..show the Dragons you still have what it takes at your twilight.

I see McInnes as an out and out hooker.

 

[Dragonslayer]

I wonder if we will et any "official" signing news today. Pre-season already under way for a week now, any further delays we put those players back even further.

 

[SAP58]

I would have rather we kept Robson than signed Luke. I would have even let McInnes leave, to keep Robson. We still would have had Hunt as a back up hooker or starting hooker. Sailor would be another 5/8 option. With either a hooker, half, 5/8 combo of

9 Robson/Hunt
7 Norman
6 Hunt/Sailor

would have provided us with more flare.

I am not knocking McInnes. I think he is one of the better hookers in the game.

Watching Robson over the last couple of years I see him as another Cameron King, great pedigree but the jury is out as to whether he can take the next step up in his career, makes a lot of errors at critical times. IMO McInnes has stepped up despite playing under Fester. Just my opinion and he may prove me wrong up in NQ. Having said that I would not sign Issac Luke.