Smells like 2000

[England87]

Does anyone else have grave concerns England 2021 will have the same fate as the disaster that was the 2000 tournament.

With the format of the pools and the extra teams that will be filled with athletes that are light years behind the pacific island nations, let alone Australia & New Zealand. The international game (Tonga & Fiji excluding) in general has gone backwards and without Super Pools the product will be average at best but this time in front of empty 40k football stadiums.

I have always thought a 12 team 3 pool tournament similar to the Copa America would best suit our games showpiece tournament. Less games but a much better product. Condensing the pools to just three with the Tier 1 nations as seeds England 2021 could look like this. I have used the top 12 teams in the world rankings for this example.

For an example of the bracket wiki 2019 Copa America Knock Out Stage.


A
ENGLAND
TONGA
Lebanon
Papua New Guinea

B
NEW ZEALAND
FIJI
WALES
Scotland

C
AUSTRALIA
SAMOA
FRANCE
Ireland

QF
ENGLAND vs France
TONGA vs Fiji
New Zealand vs SBW's SAMOA
AUSTRALIA vs Wales

SF
ENGLAND vs Tonga
Samoa vs AUSTRALIA

F
England vs AUSTRALIA

 

[Burns]

Welcome to LU Forums. You've made a brave start by posting in the nerdiest part, the RLWC Sub Forum. Come throw some ideas in the International section.

As for your post - I disagree, it smells nothing like 2000.

We are two years out. The organisation and commitment from the current organisers is lightyears improved from 2017, and is reminiscent of 2013.

The RFL have had money committed from the UK government. This World Cup is already a 'Festival' with the Womens and Wheelchair tournaments to run at the same time. There is even an e-sports commitment!
Looking back on 2000 - we don't have teams like the Aotearoa Maori for starters. And with 2000, (noting I was a child then!) there was torrential rain in England, and railway strikes. Everything that could go against it did.

You say the international game has gone backwards. How?

Look at the number of Tests that have been played this year. Proper qualification has taken place for sports in the World Cup. We have a nation like Jamaica and Greece making their debuts - significant for the cultural variety they'll bring to our game.

In the Soccer and Rugby Union World Cup's - there is always a flogging and mismatches. Why does rugby league need to wring our wrists and portray this concern that we aren't legitimate? That because Australia may beat Greece 60-0, we shouldn't bother.

You need to play and commit to spreading the game. Who could have ever predicted Japan would make the QF in the Union, let alone beat nations like South Africa and Ireland. They kept at it, the results showed themselves over the years.

You mention 40,000 seat stadiums. The matches that may attract smaller crowds will more likely than not be played in the north of England in Leigh, Doncaster and Warrington.

Back the product and have confidence in our game. It may be all grim looking at the moment for our friends in the Northern Hemisphere - but down South here, the International game is developing year on year.

 

[adamkungl]

Does anyone else have grave concerns England 2021 will have the same fate as the disaster that was the 2000 tournament.

With the format of the pools and the extra teams that will be filled with athletes that are light years behind the pacific island nations, let alone Australia & New Zealand. The international game (Tonga & Fiji excluding) in general has gone backwards and without Super Pools the product will be average at best but this time in front of empty 40k football stadiums.

I have always thought a 12 team 3 pool tournament similar to the Copa America would best suit our games showpiece tournament. Less games but a much better product. Condensing the pools to just three with the Tier 1 nations as seeds England 2021 could look like this. I have used the top 12 teams in the world rankings for this example.

For an example of the bracket wiki 2019 Copa America Knock Out Stage.


A
ENGLAND
TONGA
Lebanon
Papua New Guinea

B
NEW ZEALAND
FIJI
WALES
Scotland

C
AUSTRALIA
SAMOA
FRANCE
Ireland

QF
ENGLAND vs France
TONGA vs Fiji
New Zealand vs SBW's SAMOA
AUSTRALIA vs Wales

SF
ENGLAND vs Tonga
Samoa vs AUSTRALIA

F
England vs AUSTRALIA

No

 

[langpark]

I too, disagree. I think it's by far the best organised and most well-funded WC yet. Also, I love the 4 groups of 4 format, it perfectly goes into the knockout stage, with no messing around needed. Also the super-group format was so unfair on the 'lamb to the slaughter team', like PNG in 2008, stuck in a group with the big 3.

 

[Coastbloke]

It'll be 10 times the tournament 2017 was...

 

[adamkungl]

Does anyone else have grave concerns England 2021 will have the same fate as the disaster that was the 2000 tournament.

With the format of the pools and the extra teams that will be filled with athletes that are light years behind the pacific island nations, let alone Australia & New Zealand. The international game (Tonga & Fiji excluding) in general has gone backwards and without Super Pools the product will be average at best but this time in front of empty 40k football stadiums.

The circumstances couldn't be more different.
The 1st place in each pool is likely a sure thing but don't write off the likes of Fiji, Samoa, PNG, Ireland for an upset.
The 2nd place contest will be tight, with 13 or 14 of the 16 capable of making quarters if they are able to field a strong team.
If Tonga continue their current form through the next 2 years they will be a serious chance of making the final.

Every team in this World Cup has a stronger foundation than those in the 2000 edition, through both local and heritage.
The 2000 edition invited teams with little to no foundation that were almost no chance of winning a game even against their next worst rival (South Africa, Russia, Lebanon) and still had to invite NZ Maori to fill a spot.

I have always thought a 12 team 3 pool tournament similar to the Copa America would best suit our games showpiece tournament. Less games but a much better product. Condensing the pools to just three with the Tier 1 nations as seeds England 2021 could look like this. I have used the top 12 teams in the world rankings for this example.

For an example of the bracket wiki 2019 Copa America Knock Out Stage.


A
ENGLAND
TONGA
Lebanon
Papua New Guinea

B
NEW ZEALAND
FIJI
WALES
Scotland

C
AUSTRALIA
SAMOA
FRANCE
Ireland

QF
ENGLAND vs France
TONGA vs Fiji
New Zealand vs SBW's SAMOA
AUSTRALIA vs Wales

SF
ENGLAND vs Tonga
Samoa vs AUSTRALIA

F
England vs AUSTRALIA

This would be the international game going backwards.

 

[adamkungl]

I too, disagree. I think it's by far the best organised and most well-funded WC yet. Also, I love the 4 groups of 4 format, it perfectly goes into the knockout stage, with no messing around needed. Also the super-group format was so unfair on the 'lamb to the slaughter team', like PNG in 2008, stuck in a group with the big 3.

Yep. 1 team in the Super group was usually in an impossible situation.
And in the last tournament, 3rd place in the Super Groups didn't even need to win a game while Ireland and Italy got screwed in pools C and D

The 'normal' 4x4 format gives everyone a fair and even crack at a Quarter Final spot

 

[yakstorm]

The 2000 tournament had a lot of things going against it from the start. Firstly the sport was recovering from the Super League war, and there was a lot of 'promises' which had been made with the failed 1998 World Cup, the ARL and Super League that the organisers of the 2000 tournament were forced to keep.

Things like the ARL giving away all TV rights for the Kangaroos to Nine, promises to the NZ Maori RL that they could be in the next World Cup if they aligned with the ARL during the war and going head to head with the 2000 Olympics were always going to make it difficult from the start. Throw in GBI having a terrible tour down-under in 1999, it just sparked talk all year about how, if GB couldn't compete with Australia and New Zealand, how would four separate teams do it?

Teams like Ireland and Scotland had zero history, both had only played a grant total of 10 matches leading into the 2000 World Cup with around half of them back in 1995. Russia hadn't played a Test since 95 and most people weren't aware of their history, same with South Africa.

You then had Lebanon, who didn't even have a domestic competition back then, qualifying, whilst the RL Media were writing damaging stories like 'McGuinness brothers being linked to Ireland' (Ken & Kevin were both Indigenous and had zero Irish blood), officials in the game like Chris Caisley (Bradford Chairman) seemingly spending every waking moment criticising the tournament before it kicked off all just setting it up for a bad start.

Throw in bad weather, the train strikes, playing an opener before the main opener at Belfast (the hypeless Ireland v Samoa), which was broadcasted on BBC, before England v Australia at Twickenham (which I believe was only on Sky) and it just started badly and struggled to get better.

The 2021 tournament doesn't repeat many of those mistakes. The key differences, even ignoring the better planning, the better state of international Rugby League, the more competitive nature of the top four teams, etc are:

• Qualifiers: In 2000, only one nation had to Qualify (Lebanon), whilst the rest 'auto-qualified'. There was no real 'earning' a spot and it made it difficult to justify how any team got there. This was made worse by having 2x NZ teams.
• Domestic Standards: In 2000 there wasn't much happening in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, nothing in Lebanon, and the Pacific Islands, outside of Fiji, had next to nothing as well. This just ate away at the credibility of the tournament. Now in 2021, every qualified nation has a proper domestic setups, even Scotland, who we all like to bag.
• History: In 2000, Scotland had arguably been playing Test Rugby League for 5 years. In 2021, they will have been doing it for 26 years. Yes they haven't progressed as far as we'd like them to have, but at least now not all 17 players taking the field in 2021 will have 0 caps for the Bravehearts, and at least there is a history of them being at previous World Cups, etc. Again helps with the credibility of the teams.
• Venue Choices: Belfast, Dublin, Cardiff, Reading, Watford, Edinburgh, Gloucester, Llanelli, Wrexham, Glasgow, London, Paris. These are all the cities outside of the English and French heartlands which hosted matches in 2000. In 2021, you have London, Coventry and Middlesbrough. Maybe you can throw in Newcastle and Sheffield, but they are on the doorstep of most RL fans, plus are in cities which have some RL connection.
• Planning / Team: RLWC 2021 is an independent company which has its own employees, directors, etc and has been working on getting the tournament right since 2017. The 2000 RLWC was just the RFL, doing this on the side, and having zero dedicated resources.

 

[adamkungl]

Venue Choices: Belfast, Dublin, Cardiff, Reading, Watford, Edinburgh, Gloucester, Llanelli, Wrexham, Glasgow, London, Paris. These are all the cities outside of the English and French heartlands which hosted matches in 2000. In 2021, you have London, Coventry and Middlesbrough. Maybe you can throw in Newcastle and Sheffield, but they are on the doorstep of most RL fans, plus are in cities which have some RL connection.

Some of us are ambitious on here - i think the city choices for 2021 are a little too conservative tbh - but all of those venues in 1 tournament is a huge stretch.

Surprisingly though, Paris drew a crowd of about 7000 for an opening round double header. One of the better results of the tournament, all things considered.
I'd love for the game to try and get more of a foothold in places like Paris. Just... not gambling an entire tournament on exotic venues like 2000.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Way different scenario.

Financially: This world cup has heavy financial support by the Brittish Government, by the bidding cities, by the sponsors and will probably attract a decent TV deal.

Interest: We saw in 2013 that crowds in England will respond to a well promoted, well organised tournament and this year we have the bonus of it being the most competitive in RL history with a big four in each pool and almost a full second set of competitive nations in each pool also (Fiji, PNG, Samoa). As a bonus you have some solid teams like Ireland, Cook Islands (potentially), Wales and France plus the exotic flavour of Jamaica and Greece. I believe because of Tonga and hopefully SBW playing for Samoa the media will cover the tournament in a more positive light also. Finally the Kangaroos, the golden generation definately came to an end after the 2017 world cup final and since then they have lost to NZ and to Tonga, the 2021 World Cup won't be a foregone conclusion.

 

[Pommy]

Way different scenario.

Financially: This world cup has heavy financial support by the Brittish Government, by the bidding cities, by the sponsors and will probably attract a decent TV deal.

Interest: We saw in 2013 that crowds in England will respond to a well promoted, well organised tournament and this year we have the bonus of it being the most competitive in RL history with a big four in each pool and almost a full second set of competitive nations in each pool also (Fiji, PNG, Samoa). As a bonus you have some solid teams like Ireland, Cook Islands (potentially), Wales and France plus the exotic flavour of Jamaica and Greece. I believe because of Tonga and hopefully SBW playing for Samoa the media will cover the tournament in a more positive light also. Finally the Kangaroos, the golden generation has definately came to an end after the 2017 world cup final and since then they have lost to NZ and to Tonga, the 2021 World Cup won't be a foregone conclusion.

BBC have the TV deal and every game is either on TV or the red button. I’m 95% sure that includes women’s and wheelchair games also.

 

[PARRA_FAN]

Considering how well organised the tournament was in 2013 and 2017, I don't have much concern for this one. We are 2 years away and there's plenty of talk about this tournament, not just the mens but the womens and wheelchair cup.

I take the point the Super Pools to avoid blow outs, however there are pros and cons, the last tournament Ireland missed out in the knock out stages despite losing just one game as opposed to Samoa who didn't win a game yet qualified.

16 teams is perfect, top two from each group, quarter finals, semis then final.

I look forward to seeing what groups are announced once all 16 teams are finalised.

Lets compare this tournament to 2000, the last 16 team tournament.

The game was still recovering from the SL war. I think the World Cup was only announced a year and half before and they announced 15 teams. Not really enough preparation.

As mentioned games were played in a lot non RL heartland places, Dublin, Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Llanelli, Reading, Watford, Gloucester

Whereas in 2013 games were played in Hull, Wigan, Huddersfield, Leeds, Halifax, St Helens, Leigh, Rochdale.

The organisers put so much thought into 2013 whereas 2000 seemed like a rushed World Cup.

I guess one of the good things from 2000 was the decent crowds in France, particular in Carcassonne where it got over 10,000.

So the game has certainly learned a lot from that disaster in 2000.

A World Cup would've been staged in 2004 but was cancelled so an 8 year gap would've given it enough time to organise a proper qualifying system, change the criteria, promote the tournament.

Reducing it 10 was a good move, would've preferred 12 but still 2008 was a good tournament and the International game has moved forward ever since.

Now we have newcomers Greece and Jamaica in a Rugby League tournament, its amazing how far we've come since the 2000 World Cup, I mean those countries didn't even play the game back then.

 

[Springs09]

The 2021 World Cup is currently 10x more ambitious and interesting than the rest of our international calendar. I wish we were as willing to go big in the other three years of the calendar as we are with this World Cup.

To me it's the only thing we have that's going forward, the rest is going backwards.

 

[deluded pom?]

I think it smells more like a troll.

 

[Dakink]

I think it smells more like a troll.

Nail. Head.

 

[Perth Red]

It’s not being played in Australia so has a much better chance of being successful..