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OT: Current Affairs and Politics

Bandwagon

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That depends on your political bias I guess.

"American owned company withdrawing from Australia due to costs" doesn't generate as much smugness

I'd say it's more "American owned company withdrawing from Australia due to poor sales" than it is to costs.

And that's due to a litany of poor decisions in meeting what the market here wants.

To what degree do you think the unions contributed to Holden's unsustainable business model in Australia?

Very little.

The evidence is in that despite moving it offshore, they still couldn't sustain it.
 

Gary Gutful

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We're a small market, at the arse end of the west, and everyday car makers need volume and economies of scale, as do their suppliers.
True. We are up against it to start with, but in my experience demanding unions make us even less competitive.
 

Bandwagon

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True. We are up against it to start with, but in my experience demanding unions make us even less competitive.

Sure, but what's the alternative?

A race to the bottom?

Do you think it's a coincidence that diminishing union influence in the private sector coincides with sluggish wages growth and an ever growing gap between the growth of corporate earnings and the earnings of their employees?

I don't.
 

Eelogical

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22,557
I'd say it's more "American owned company withdrawing from Australia due to poor sales" than it is to costs.

And that's due to a litany of poor decisions in meeting what the market here wants.



Very little.

The evidence is in that despite moving it offshore, they still couldn't sustain it.

Holden, Ford & Toyota had to pay overs for assembly line workers in Australia. The unions are partly responsible for that. As far as the offshore comment is concerned, no Commodore fanboy was ever going to buy a FWD based European replacement for the locally grown sedan. They had already burned their bridges by selling low quality Captivas, Cruzes and Barinas from Korea and assume 'she'll be right, mate' because they had a Holden badge on them. Wrong cars, wrong time and underestimating their customer base.
 

Gary Gutful

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Sure, but what's the alternative?

A race to the bottom?

Do you think it's a coincidence that diminishing union influence in the private sector coincides with sluggish wages growth and an ever growing gap between the growth of corporate earnings and the earnings of their employees?

I don't.
Its a factor, but I think its a more complex story than that.

For example, take this research paper on the subject that was prepared for Parliament:
https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/library/prspub/6609740/upload_binary/6609740.pdf

When citing the causes of wage growth it states (bottom of Page 1):

''The major causes of the slowdown in wage growth cited by both the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) and Treasury include the presence of excess capacity in the labour market (demonstrated by stubbornly high rates of underemployment); a steady decline in inflation and inflationary expectations; and a decline in the terms of trade since the end of the mining boom.''

It addresses the issue of declining union participation on page 18 and states the following:

Union density (or the union member share of total employment) in Australia has fallen progressively over the longer term from 41.6 per cent in 1988 to 13.6 per cent in August 2018. The Australia Institute has argued that a strong relationship exists between low levels of industrial disputation more recently and lower wage outcomes. However, a closer look at the data shows higher wage outcomes were achieved from the early 2000s to 2007 when levels of industrial disputation were also declining rapidly. A stronger relationship exists between the two series from 2008 onwards (see Figure 9).

upload_2020-2-18_10-59-20.png



Then finally in the conclusion on Page 27 it states that:

''It is possible that a decline in bargaining power associated with declining union membership and lower rates of industrial disputation in Australia has impacted upon wage growth, but the magnitude of their influence is more difficult to measure. There is also evidence of periods where rates of industrial disputation were low but wages were growing relatively strongly. The combination of restrictions on when employees can undertake industrial action, protracted enterprise bargaining processes, ceilings on remuneration increases in the public sector, and movement of employees away from being covered by enterprise agreements to award coverage may have also contributed to lower wage growth outcomes.''

Don't get me wrong I see some value in effective and well managed unions that help ensure employees don't get shafted but I have also experienced dreadful union behaviour that has crippled the maritime sector at times. I have also never needed a union which means that unfortunately I can't draw on first hand experiences when thinking of the positives, so perhaps that makes me biased.

Either way, I take your point about the coincidence between lower wage growth and lower union participation but as shown above when considering causation rather than coincidence many other factors are arguably more influential.
 
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hindy111

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Sure, but what's the alternative?

A race to the bottom?

Do you think it's a coincidence that diminishing union influence in the private sector coincides with sluggish wages growth and an ever growing gap between the growth of corporate earnings and the earnings of their employees?

I don't.

I know plenty of people earning $21- $25hr and get about a 30cent a hr pay rise a year. Some people say that is plenty of money to live. I'd argue it treading above the breadline.
 

Gronk

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Catch 22. Without unions some people would be on $14hr

Yep merkins take for granted what they have because of unions. There are many on the right of politics who want penalty rates and the min wage abolished.

An IPA spokesman added the think tank did “not believe there should be a minimum wage”. “It is not a policy which is well targeted at alleviating poverty — most who are on the minimum wage are not poor,” he said. “And it prevents the lowest skilled from getting a job. Instead governments should explore alternatives such as earned income tax credits.”

https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...h/news-story/12f8a45237c9ae5b5a893c42748a0934
 

hindy111

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Yep merkins take for granted what they have because of unions. There are many on the right of politics who want penalty rates and the min wage abolished.

An IPA spokesman added the think tank did “not believe there should be a minimum wage”. “It is not a policy which is well targeted at alleviating poverty — most who are on the minimum wage are not poor,” he said. “And it prevents the lowest skilled from getting a job. Instead governments should explore alternatives such as earned income tax credits.”

https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...h/news-story/12f8a45237c9ae5b5a893c42748a0934


Wage growth stopped once Howard bought in the fair work agreements. Then they started collecting Brown people from poor countries and bringing them in. And we'll that was the end of wage growth for people with low skills....

All the leftist thought isn't it nice migration hey. Ah well now you will pay 1 million dollars to live in a 2 bedroom red brick unit with no air con.
 

Bazal

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Yep merkins take for granted what they have because of unions. There are many on the right of politics who want penalty rates and the min wage abolished.

An IPA spokesman added the think tank did “not believe there should be a minimum wage”. “It is not a policy which is well targeted at alleviating poverty — most who are on the minimum wage are not poor,” he said. “And it prevents the lowest skilled from getting a job. Instead governments should explore alternatives such as earned income tax credits.”

https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...h/news-story/12f8a45237c9ae5b5a893c42748a0934

Unions have been instrumental in many things.

Unfortunately they dissappeared up their own arse quite a few years ago now and basically serve themselves
 

Gronk

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All the leftist thought isn't it nice migration hey. Ah well now you will pay 1 million dollars to live in a 2 bedroom red brick unit with no air con.

The Libs have been in charge for 21 of the last 24 years, but it's the leftists fault that real estate is expensive ?
 

hindy111

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The Libs have been in charge for 21 of the last 24 years, but it's the leftists fault that real estate is expensive ?

No it is not. They just thought migration was a good thing that liberal where doing. They didn't understand the reasons behind it.
 

Gronk

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No it is not. They just thought migration was a good thing that liberal where doing. They didn't understand the reasons behind it.

Skilled immigration is a good thing and the reason why have had continuous economic growth (and avoided a recession) since you were in your primary school shorts.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/what-australia-knows-about-recessions/578482/

Why Hasn’t Australia Had a Recession in Almost 30 Years?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...iding-recession-in-australia-mass-immigration

The Secret to Australia Avoiding Recession: Mass Immigration
 

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