Jack DeBelin

[possm]

*Deleted*

I'd say you're wrong. It is the NRL who are at fault. In designing this new policy, they should have accepted all responsibility for the financial fallout by taking ownership of De Belin's contract or by negotiating a contract payout.

SGI committed no crime and had no say in the NRL's decision. It is not SGI that should be punished or disadvantaged.

 

[Auntie.Gerald]

so it appears we have $550k prorated this season for an "equivalent" positional player to JDB?

all the good players are under contract but no reason we couldnt go hard for a player that is contracted and maybe able to obtain a release in 2020?

Merrin is only 98kgs now supposedly and more a bench middle where he is more effective in the later minutes of the game.

We need a bloody good middle defender as a prop / lock in my opinion.

who is out there that we can sign longer term? or will Host and Ford be more then enough for long term and we obtain a prop style middle player instead to replace Graham etc in the near future?

 

[Dragon David]

so it appears we have $550k prorated this season for an "equivalent" positional player to JDB?

all the good players are under contract but no reason we couldnt go hard for a player that is contracted and maybe able to obtain a release in 2020?

Merrin is only 98kgs now supposedly and more a bench middle where he is more effective in the later minutes of the game.

We need a bloody good middle defender as a prop / lock in my opinion.

who is out there that we can sign longer term? or will Host and Ford be more then enough for long term and we obtain a prop style middle player instead to replace Graham etc in the near future?

Maybe we should try and get Alex Walmsley from St Helens if he is available? He had a good game I thought against the Roosters in the Challenge Cup today alongside Luke Thompson who is going to the Bulldogs.

 

[dungay dragon]

I'd say you're wrong. It is the NRL who are at fault. In designing this new policy, they should have accepted all responsibility for the financial fallout by taking ownership of De Belin's contract or by negotiating a contract payout.

SGI committed no crime and had no say in the NRL's decision. It is not SGI that should be punished or disadvantaged.

It all started with Jack Possm...
from there Disruption and Distraction regardless of innocence and or guilt
Yes , both the NRL and SGI shouldve handled the situation better

 

[Warabrook saint]

Yes, why is it so? The NRL stand him down against the wishes of SGI and then SGI have to sacrifice 4 monts of his salary cap and probably more. This is not a fair system and BJ or someone else at SGI should aggressively complain to the NRL about it.

The nrl treats us like 3rd class citizens

 

[Old Kogarah Boy 1]

The nrl treats us like 3rd class citizens

True that, l’d much prefer us to be treated as second rate citizens.

 

[Warabrook saint]

True that, l’d much prefer us to be treated as second rate citizens.

We'd have a fighting chance.......err I forgot....supercoach

 

[Dragonslayer]

As far as DeBelins salary.
What makes the "stand down" policy so unfair is, that in reality (and none of us no the finite details of anyones contract), we would only have about 160k to play with for a replacement.

If I'm not mistaken DeBelin takes up most, if not all of our long serving player allowance, which is 300k. Therefore his 'cap' salary is only 250k. Deduct the months already paid out and its close enough to 160k as of now and each month that passes that will get smaller.

It would be nice if we had 460k in the kitty, but not to be, and this is where it is unfair to us, as the player concerned has salary compensations which cannot transfer to a player coming in (or upgraded).
Wasn't it Like for Like the scenario used by Beattie at the presser for the stand down policy?

Hard to imagine a player on 550k having a like replacement on 160k.

We are 1 week away from having to finalise our top 29, DeBelin is included in that count atm. We should, as a priority, be waiting on the NRL's doorstep tomorrow morning seeking clarity on his replacement.

 

[BLM01]

The NRL introduced a retrospective policy that directly effected JDB and SGI. The courts have ruled they were within their right to do so however, the question remains on who should bare the responsibility to fund this decision. In my opinion, the court should have made this clear when arriving at its decision.

So, if the NRL don't come to the party and fully compensate SGI, then our club should take them to court seeking a ruling.

The court should not decide who funds the player or cl;ub reimbursement. St George no where they stand and what they could apply for and choose not to. The courts were there for the decision only to the argument whether their policy is right or wrong and decide on that. The NRL do not pay and are responsible for the players wages and how the club earn its income or spend their money.

 

[Forbes Creek Dragons]

As far as DeBelins salary.
What makes the "stand down" policy so unfair is, that in reality (and none of us no the finite details of anyones contract), we would only have about 160k to play with for a replacement.

If I'm not mistaken DeBelin takes up most, if not all of our long serving player allowance, which is 300k. Therefore his 'cap' salary is only 250k. Deduct the months already paid out and its close enough to 160k as of now and each month that passes that will get smaller.

It would be nice if we had 460k in the kitty, but not to be, and this is where it is unfair to us, as the player concerned has salary compensations which cannot transfer to a player coming in (or upgraded).
Wasn't it Like for Like the scenario used by Beattie at the presser for the stand down policy?

Hard to imagine a player on 550k having a like replacement on 160k.

We are 1 week away from having to finalise our top 29, DeBelin is included in that count atm. We should, as a priority, be waiting on the NRL's doorstep tomorrow morning seeking clarity on his replacement.

That’s right especially given a like for like is a forward. Not going to get a great forward for 160k could maybe jag a good young winger but we can’t. It’s ridiculous.

 

[George Dragon]

As far as DeBelins salary.
What makes the "stand down" policy so unfair is, that in reality (and none of us no the finite details of anyones contract), we would only have about 160k to play with for a replacement.

If I'm not mistaken DeBelin takes up most, if not all of our long serving player allowance, which is 300k. Therefore his 'cap' salary is only 250k. Deduct the months already paid out and its close enough to 160k as of now and each month that passes that will get smaller.

It would be nice if we had 460k in the kitty, but not to be, and this is where it is unfair to us, as the player concerned has salary compensations which cannot transfer to a player coming in (or upgraded).
Wasn't it Like for Like the scenario used by Beattie at the presser for the stand down policy?

Hard to imagine a player on 550k having a like replacement on 160k.

We are 1 week away from having to finalise our top 29, DeBelin is included in that count atm. We should, as a priority, be waiting on the NRL's doorstep tomorrow morning seeking clarity on his replacement.

Thats not even close to how it works.
The allowance is 200k and is for long term club, long term NRL and juniors developed. It is spread over multiple players like JDB Frizell and even Merrin. Dufty Host Lawrie Ford etc too.
Even if JDB was getting all of it we could just transfer to it Merrin and still get JDB full cap relief.
The big issue is the NRL only give us cap relief not the cash, so the club still has to come up with 400k to sign someone.

 

[Wittenberg]

so it appears we have $550k prorated this season for an "equivalent" positional player to JDB?

all the good players are under contract but no reason we couldnt go hard for a player that is contracted and maybe able to obtain a release in 2020?

Merrin is only 98kgs now supposedly and more a bench middle where he is more effective in the later minutes of the game.

We need a bloody good middle defender as a prop / lock in my opinion.

who is out there that we can sign longer term? or will Host and Ford be more then enough for long term and we obtain a prop style middle player instead to replace Graham etc in the near future?

Host has had his chances and has failed to live up to his initial reputation. Injuries have played their part in this but he is not real quality in my view. Maybe I’m being too harsh but I have never seen much more than an average footballer.

 

[rasaint]

I will post again on this thread. I will not comment on the court case. Great post by George Dragon.

The retrospective ‘no fault’ policy has effectively kept the club I support in a position of $550+ per season off the salary cap. Now it will be $1.1million over two years.

Forget how players are paid over 12 months blah blah. Fans of any club simply equate a players season payment for turning out for a possible ( 24 games I think). So JDB may get his reported $550k a season over a year but he in practice earns it for the clubs success in the playing season.

It punishes the club and dragons fans and significantly weakens our opportunity for a successful season. It throws out the broad legal principle of innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. The method of the policy makes it impossible to recruit a quality player at a level of the stood down player. The club has to stump up additional money.

It stinks.

 

[SnowDragon]

Cant get full. he has already received 4 months salary.

I don’t understand why the club didn’t apply for salary compensation directly. A fair system would allow them to apply provisionally awaiting the response from the courts. Thus, as soon as it became apparent he couldn’t play for the majority of the year we should have received the majority of his salary as a salary cap relief (and actually his salary should be covered by the NRL since they forced the standing down of the player.)

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Really... JDB innocent until convicted and currently cannot play football for anyone
Packer did his time in jail. Dugan was convicted of?
I agree re disruption but thats life.

You've missed the point.
Forget De Belin for a moment.
The fact is that AFB was recruited by Manly and has never looked back.
He was stood down by STI at the beginning of 2015 and pleaded guilty to the charge of assaulting his GF at court in June 2015.
He was handed a $1000 fine and a 12 month suspended sentence. No jail time.
STI then decided to terminate his contract in spite of the fact the he was one of the most promising lower grade players we had at the time and in spite of the fact that he was only 19.
By November 1st, 2015 he had been cleared to train on with Many by the NRL and had started playing again in 2016.
Please tell me how that compares with Packer serving his time and being allowed to play?
Do you remember the process we went through to sign Packer?
We went to great lengths to sign him. We vouched for him. We supported him in so many ways only for him to go to the Tigers for the money.
Did we do that because we were so enamoured with Packer or because we were desperate to sign a high quality prop to strengthen our squad?
Don't get me started on Dugan.
He only came to us after a last minute contractual disaster with the Broncos due to his poor behaviour.
He had an impressive track record of bad behaviour at Canberra before he came to us and yet we chose to be the rehabilitation surrogate.
Does a player have to be convicted of a crime to be a problem?
My very simple question is - we showed enormous empathy and support for these two players.
Why not AFB?
Whose moral compass are we using when making these decisions?
Hypocritical in my view.
N.B. I believe AFB is still in a long term relationship with his GF Ana and they have two kids together.

 

[SBD82]

You've missed the point.
Forget De Belin for a moment.
The fact is that AFB was recruited by Manly and has never looked back.
He was stood down by STI at the beginning of 2015 and pleaded guilty to the charge of assaulting his GF at court in June 2015.
He was handed a $1000 fine and a 12 month suspended sentence. No jail time.
STI then decided to terminate his contract in spite of the fact the he was one of the most promising lower grade players we had at the time and in spite of the fact that he was only 19.
By November 1st, 2015 he had been cleared to train on with Many by the NRL and had started playing again in 2016.
Please tell me how that compares with Packer serving his time and being allowed to play?
Do you remember the process we went through to sign Packer?
We went to great lengths to sign him. We vouched for him. We supported him in so many ways only for him to go to the Tigers for the money.
Did we do that because we were so enamoured with Packer or because we were desperate to sign a high quality prop to strengthen our squad?
Don't get me started on Dugan.
He only came to us after a last minute contractual disaster with the Broncos due to his poor behaviour.
He had an impressive track record of bad behaviour at Canberra before he came to us and yet we chose to be the rehabilitation surrogate.
Does a player have to be convicted of a crime to be a problem?
My very simple question is - we showed enormous empathy and support for these two players.
Why not AFB?
Whose moral compass are we using when making these decisions?
Hypocritical in my view.
N.B. I believe AFB is still in a long term relationship with his GF Ana and they have two kids together.

The problem with this is that we don’t know the full story of AFB.

Was he pissed about being stood down and was having conflict with the club?

Did he underestimate the seriousness of his actions and need to be moved on as a kick up the pants?

Did he need to move away from the area to remove himself from negative influences?

Without knowing the answers to these questions I don’t think you can compare the different cases. Who is to say that he would have shown the same dedication to training and improving his game if he had stayed?

It’s possible it was best case scenario for all parties.

 

[muzby]

You've missed the point.
Forget De Belin for a moment.
The fact is that AFB was recruited by Manly and has never looked back.
He was stood down by STI at the beginning of 2015 and pleaded guilty to the charge of assaulting his GF at court in June 2015.
He was handed a $1000 fine and a 12 month suspended sentence. No jail time.
STI then decided to terminate his contract in spite of the fact the he was one of the most promising lower grade players we had at the time and in spite of the fact that he was only 19.
By November 1st, 2015 he had been cleared to train on with Many by the NRL and had started playing again in 2016.
Please tell me how that compares with Packer serving his time and being allowed to play?
Do you remember the process we went through to sign Packer?
We went to great lengths to sign him. We vouched for him. We supported him in so many ways only for him to go to the Tigers for the money.
Did we do that because we were so enamoured with Packer or because we were desperate to sign a high quality prop to strengthen our squad?
Don't get me started on Dugan.
He only came to us after a last minute contractual disaster with the Broncos due to his poor behaviour.
He had an impressive track record of bad behaviour at Canberra before he came to us and yet we chose to be the rehabilitation surrogate.
Does a player have to be convicted of a crime to be a problem?
My very simple question is - we showed enormous empathy and support for these two players.
Why not AFB?
Whose moral compass are we using when making these decisions?
Hypocritical in my view.
N.B. I believe AFB is still in a long term relationship with his GF Ana and they have two kids together.

We’ve had this dance before.

Firstly, how you can lump Dugan into the same pile as people convicted of beating a woman or spending time in jail for bashing someone is beyond comprehension.

Secondly, just because AFB can play football doesn’t mean we should have kept him.

Dane Nielsen allegedly bit a woman & he got the sack too. Why aren’t you advocating for his reinstatement?

You argue about who’s moral compass we should base the decisions on?

It seems that your compass isn’t based on morals, but based on football ability.

We need to stop treating young men like gods simply because of the footballing genetics they are blessed with.

 

[possm]

I don’t understand why the club didn’t apply for salary compensation directly. A fair system would allow them to apply provisionally awaiting the response from the courts. Thus, as soon as it became apparent he couldn’t play for the majority of the year we should have received the majority of his salary as a salary cap relief (and actually his salary should be covered by the NRL since they forced the standing down of the player.)

I'd go even further, once the stand down order became effective, the salary and cap compensation should have be activated automatically undil a decision was made by the court.

In addition the NRL should have assumed responsibility for the welfare and support of the payer. After all it was the NRL who introduced the stand down policy and SGI played no role in any wrong doing with regards to this matter.

 

[Warabrook saint]

I was referring to the nrl in general

 

[BLM01]

You've missed the point.
Forget De Belin for a moment.
The fact is that AFB was recruited by Manly and has never looked back.
He was stood down by STI at the beginning of 2015 and pleaded guilty to the charge of assaulting his GF at court in June 2015.
He was handed a $1000 fine and a 12 month suspended sentence. No jail time.
STI then decided to terminate his contract in spite of the fact the he was one of the most promising lower grade players we had at the time and in spite of the fact that he was only 19.
By November 1st, 2015 he had been cleared to train on with Many by the NRL and had started playing again in 2016.
Please tell me how that compares with Packer serving his time and being allowed to play?
Do you remember the process we went through to sign Packer?
We went to great lengths to sign him. We vouched for him. We supported him in so many ways only for him to go to the Tigers for the money.
Did we do that because we were so enamoured with Packer or because we were desperate to sign a high quality prop to strengthen our squad?
Don't get me started on Dugan.
He only came to us after a last minute contractual disaster with the Broncos due to his poor behaviour.
He had an impressive track record of bad behaviour at Canberra before he came to us and yet we chose to be the rehabilitation surrogate.
Does a player have to be convicted of a crime to be a problem?
My very simple question is - we showed enormous empathy and support for these two players.
Why not AFB?
Whose moral compass are we using when making these decisions?
Hypocritical in my view.
N.B. I believe AFB is still in a long term relationship with his GF Ana and they have two kids together.

You’ve missed the whole point of my original post and reply. don’t how it got to this And I only replied about Dugan & Packer because someone else mentioned them. from the beginning people on here People were advocating JDB has been given preferential special treatment over others. I want to know how has he as not been convicted of anything yet is all I have said and how do we know What the club were privy too when they stood AFB down. JDB has been stood down from doing a lot of things too.