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Time to crack out Arko's ARL blueprint

tri_colours

Juniors
Messages
1,828
Basically THIS.

THIS is the crux of the argument of every expansionist in this forum, myself included.

Name any national league, anywhere in the world outside of AFL or NRL where you have such a concentration of teams in one city.

It doesn't happen, precisely because it's an unsustainable, imbalanced model.

Why exclude RL and AFL? Is it because both codes have used that formula , very success fully for over a century.
 

tri_colours

Juniors
Messages
1,828
Most of that "over a century" was when the respective leagues were suburban, never reaching further than Geelong (VFL) or Penrith (NSWRL).

In 1908 they had a concentration of teams in the one city(Sydney), with the exception of only Newcastle.

AFL/VFL wouldn't be much different.
 
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ReddFelon

Juniors
Messages
1,485
Why exclude RL and AFL? Is it because both codes have used that formula , very success fully for over a century.

I wouldn't call the AFL or NRL's models for Melbourne and Sydney successful. The VFL had to expand to WA, SA, QLD and NSW. The Swans and Lions had to move to Sydney and Brisbane because they were dying in Melbourne. Even today the AFL openly acknowledge that West Coast, Fremantle, Adelaide, Port Adelaide and the Swans are the big financial contributors to their league. West Coast were in the news a week ago because AFL admin wanted to raid their $45 million war chest to pay off the Melbourne players so that no one took a pay cut. With Hawthorn and North Melbourne relying on the Tasmanian state government to keep them afloat, etc. Chances are in a few years North will relocate to Tasmania (their women's team is already listed as North Melbourne-Tasmania Kangaroos).

The NRL model isn't particularly successful either; Manly, Wests, Cronulla, Bulldogs and Penrith have all had bad times over the last decade or so. The Broncos and Storm contribute a huge amount financially that helps prop up a number of struggling Sydney clubs.
 

Dark Corner

Juniors
Messages
1,342
And i want a $100k a year, a blowie from Margot Robbie and to leave my f*ckin house sometime this month....

We dont always get a perfect situation. Sometimes it pays to focus on what is possible and practical.

A National league OR a team in every Sydney suburb. You cant have both...
Well Souths should play out of Souths and then Easts can go North full time and you can get behind me and wait in the queue for blowie off Margot.
 

tri_colours

Juniors
Messages
1,828
I wouldn't call the AFL or NRL's models for Melbourne and Sydney successful. The VFL had to expand to WA, SA, QLD and NSW. The Swans and Lions had to move to Sydney and Brisbane because they were dying in Melbourne. Even today the AFL openly acknowledge that West Coast, Fremantle, Adelaide, Port Adelaide and the Swans are the big financial contributors to their league. West Coast were in the news a week ago because AFL admin wanted to raid their $45 million war chest to pay off the Melbourne players so that no one took a pay cut. With Hawthorn and North Melbourne relying on the Tasmanian state government to keep them afloat, etc. Chances are in a few years North will relocate to Tasmania (their women's team is already listed as North Melbourne-Tasmania Kangaroos).

The NRL model isn't particularly successful either; Manly, Wests, Cronulla, Bulldogs and Penrith have all had bad times over the last decade or so. The Broncos and Storm contribute a huge amount financially that helps prop up a number of struggling Sydney clubs.

Pound for pound the ARLC would be watched by as many, or more people than any other sporting competition, just as it would bring in as much money as any

So our opinion on success differs.
 
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Messages
14,497
Swans were broke but only moved to Sydney to allow Sunday football to be shown on TV in Melbourne.

The VFL couldn't play Sundays as VFA did, and was protected by Vic Government.

So yeah..TV again ha.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,811
Afl has morphed into a truly national competition with at least two clubs connected to every state. Nrl still has a nswrl comp with some clubs allowed to play in it mentality.
The paradigm of the two is enormous and why nrl will never catch up to AFL imo. We had a shot in 95 but lost it and I can’t see it ever being realised again. Reality is we need 4 less Sydney teams and 4 other city teams but will never happen as the nrl commission isn’t independent and can not make such tough decisions.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,478
I agree but I don't think there is a suitable stadium site. North Sydney oval is probably the best existing ground and easy to get to.

It's not on a train line and therefore inappropriate. If you build a stadium anywhere outside of 5-7min walk from a train station, it will always be considered negatively by the public in general. Especially a winter sport where families are concerned during cold winter days and nights. Throw in a bit of rain and you're done. The crowd will be massively affected.

Parramatta stadium is maybe the exception due to it being still reasonably close to all the amenities, restaurants and bars, but time will tell on that one too. The light rail opening up in a couple of years will also help it sustain decent crowds one would expect.

But North Sydney oval has no such infrastructure around it. It has Buckley's chance of sustaining 20k+ crowds over the long haul and that is what we are aiming for aren't we? A team that represents the entire northern Sydney region should be able to do that on its ear if they knew how to engage and charm their fan base effectively.

We need to stop scratching for chicken feed. We need to make sure that all our clubs are maximising their brand and stadium quality and location is a massive part of that. Public engagement is another. These two areas I believe Manly have fallen way short on for decades, which for me is inexcusable. Especially the fan engagement side of things. Manly's pride in how the general public love to hate them is very short sighted the way that they have embraced it. Sure use it to your advantage, but by isolating themselves on that peninsular and battening down the hatches around them, it then sends out a message to the rest of the northern region that it's just that small communities team and they are excluded from that.

Where is the wider public engagement and inclusiveness? Where are the school engagement and participation level at? What are the numbers and the year in year out KPI's on that? Have they increased by much if anything since the Bears got kicked out? If not what a disgrace. Where is the public engagement in all the different shopping centres and malls? These type of things need to be constant and omnipresent forever. All the school principals of the the entire region should be on a first name basis with the talent scouts, marketing men, coaches and anyone else of importance in the pursuit of growing their brand and their number one stakeholder, their fans. Engage, engage, engage!!! This should be the number one mission statement of Manly, hell of all our teams. Wherever and whenever possible, be available and also include the media in as many opportunities as possible too.

Remember, when the players were negotiating their players collective bargaining agreement, they agreed to have a massive improvement in promoting the game with accessibility and media involvement now that they were made major stakeholders. Well as has been reported, nothing eventuated. They just took the money and ran because it wasn't written into the contract. It was just a verbal gentleman's agreement that was easily ignored.

Well this needs to stop. When we rejig the ARLC and all its parts, they must get this right and follow the American sports model type of player engagement and write it into the damn contract this time. The accessibility the media has with sports, players and coaching staff is the bench mark for all sports around the world. We need to change and Manly in particular, need to do things differently if they want to be around for the long haul with more then just a couple of hundred thousand people that sometimes care, but generally couldn't give a stuff if they were there of not
 

flippikat

Bench
Messages
4,440
Afl has morphed into a truly national competition with at least two clubs connected to every state. Nrl still has a nswrl comp with some clubs allowed to play in it mentality.
The paradigm of the two is enormous and why nrl will never catch up to AFL imo. We had a shot in 95 but lost it and I can’t see it ever being realised again. Reality is we need 4 less Sydney teams and 4 other city teams but will never happen as the nrl commission isn’t independent and can not make such tough decisions.

That's why I was talking about the old regional maps of Sydney from past eras - if Sydney was to be re-zoned to allow for 4-5 clubs maximum, why not take past club boundaries as a rough guide?

For instance, I recall reading that Penrith fell under the Western Suburbs area before Penrith itself was granted first-grade status. Nowdays it may fall under Parramatta or Tigers if the Panthers drop down to NSW Cup.

Sure, some tweaks may be needed to account for the sprawl over the decades.. but it may be a starting point for some kind of future set-up.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,478
Not sure I'd agree there. North Sydney Oval is too far away from any rail station. Bus is the only option. I went to a 50th a couple of years ago at the Greens Bowlo club adjacent to NSO and parked a couple of blocks away lol.

Chatswood oval probably doesn't have enough land outside the actual playing area for a new 15,000-20,000 seater stadium. Current capacity is 8,700. In it's favour is a major Rail station across the road and pretty much a zillion bus services..It's also a cricket ground, but cricket could move to Beauchamp (?) Park...

This is where I would put it. Get the best engineering minds together and work out a way to put 25-30k stadium there. I'm sure it is possible if we got the best minds to tackle it. But there need to be desire first and with Manly's low standing in their own region, they would have next to no chance to pull it off. That's why they first need to address fan base growth. They need to double and triple it, then start to make noise on such a prestigious plot of land. When the public are behind you, then the pollies listen, not the other way around.

What are the chances of anything that I have just written in my last two post ever becoming reality, without the ARLC making them do all of the above and more with contractual KPI's written into their franchise agreement otherwise huge monetary penalties would ensure? Sweet f**k all.

What I would do to all the clubs is bring in strict KPI bench making for each clubs circumstances and current abilities and should they fail to reach those KPI's, dock their football funding of the appropriate and necessary amount and then spend that amount the way it should have been in the first place in that region. Players would also get fined for not appearing or doing their media or public engagements. If clubs are at fault then the clubs wear the cost. But one way or another, they pay in the hip pocket and if it is the clubs fault, that amount comes off the salary cap. If you make this all binding, then everyone will quickly comply.

What we don't need however, is CH9's proposal earlier this week to give the clubs a bigger say in running the game. That would ensure the guaranteed stagnation and eventual self destruction of the NRL over the long haul.

Anyone want to guess what we end up with?
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,291
It's not on a train line and therefore inappropriate. If you build a stadium anywhere outside of 5-7min walk from a train station, it will always be considered negatively by the public in general. Especially a winter sport where families are concerned during cold winter days and nights. Throw in a bit of rain and you're done. The crowd will be massively affected.

All of this is basically true. But surely you would agree that NSO is about 10 times better than Brookvale (which is arguably the least logical place in all of Sydney to have a team)?

Can you suggest a better spot than NSO for a Northern Suburbs team to play out of?
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,478
In yor mind maybe

Do you think the titans wouldv'e got 250k in the Sat. 5.30 timeslot?

We will assume the big city team you are talking about is Peth. They rarely get more than 180k in AFL, so how in the hell are they going to average 250k in RL.


If they had the same quality roster they might/probably would.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,478
All of this is basically true. But surely you would agree that NSO is about 10 times better than Brookvale (which is arguably the least logical place in all of Sydney to have a team)?

Can you suggest a better spot than NSO for a Northern Suburbs team to play out of?

As it stands no. But NSO is not going to attract that many more if any attendances over the long haul. Firstly it isn't that convenient to get to public transport wise. Secondly it is an awkward round cricket ground and terrible for RL. And thirdly, without Manly doing all the hard yards and engaging new fans to support their team, you are just moving out of the area that the majority of the fan base live in, so they too will drop off from being regulars, then hoping that you pickup some new ones from around the NSO area. That's a bit of a gamble that in my point of view probably won't work right now.

Sure if they reconfigured NSO into a rectangular ground with decent seating around it and started a massive perpetual public engagement campaign, with the eye on eventually growing enough as an organisation to then lobby both Gov's for a real stadium in the best possible location(Chatswood), yeah sure great plan, but none of that is being discussed or planed from what I can see.

Just moving them and doing nothing around that, i.e. name change, public, business and school engagement, then what will really change? People aren't idiots. They want you to commit and commitment means a lot more then relocation to a cricket ground and calling it home. Manly need to show a hell of a lot of love to the whole of the northern suburbs that consider them to be on the nose. I can't see them getting of their backsides to do this without the ARLC's mandatory directive and guidance. Especially since the Penn family don't want to increase their expenditure more then what they are currently putting in.

The way I see it, if the Penn family can't afford to run a football franchise to its maximum potential, well then the ARLC needs to say, thank you for your efforts, but you need to move on and hand the reins over to someone that can. Someone or entity always does and will do. We as an organisation(ARLC) need to identify this and act in the best interest of the game as a whole and move forward accordingly.

The northern suburbs of Sydney need and must have a team of their own that everyone in that area wants to and likes to follow. Whether it is Manly or not is irrelevant to the game as a whole, but preferable. If possible we do not want to disenfranchise any existing fans and also lose all that history and tradition. But if it came to it as they presently stand, they offer very little to the well being of the NRL overall other then being part of the makeup of an 8 game a week setup that any other expansion region franchise could easily provide with probably better overall numbers from the get go.
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,291
The northern suburbs of Sydney need and must have a team of their own that everyone in that area wants to and likes to follow. Whether it is Manly or not is irrelevant to the game as a whole, but preferable.

Even the Sydney Sea Eagles out of NSO would be better than what we have now. Just based on potential growth.

Offer a very cheap membership to anyone who has held a Manly season ticket over the last few years.
 
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Bulldog2020

Juniors
Messages
82
As it stands no. But NSO is not going to attract that many more if any attendances over the long haul. Firstly it isn't that convenient to get to public transport wise. Secondly it is an awkward round cricket ground and terrible for RL. And thirdly, without Manly doing all the hard yards and engaging new fans to support their team, you are just moving out of the area that the majority of the fan base live in, so they too will drop off from being regulars, then hoping that you pickup some new ones from around the NSO area. That's a bit of a gamble that in my point of view probably won't work right now.

Sure if they reconfigured NSO into a rectangular ground with decent seating around it and started a massive perpetual public engagement campaign, with the eye on eventually growing enough as an organisation to then lobby both Gov's for a real stadium in the best possible location(Chatswood), yeah sure great plan, but none of that is being discussed or planed from what I can see.

Just moving them and doing nothing around that, i.e. name change, public, business and school engagement, then what will really change? People aren't idiots. They want you to commit and commitment means a lot more then relocation to a cricket ground and calling it home. Manly need to show a hell of a lot of love to the whole of the northern suburbs that consider them to be on the nose. I can't see them getting of their backsides to do this without the ARLC's mandatory directive and guidance. Especially since the Penn family don't want to increase their expenditure more then what they are currently putting in.

The way I see it, if the Penn family can't afford to run a football franchise to its maximum potential, well then the ARLC needs to say, thank you for your efforts, but you need to move on and hand the reins over to someone that can. Someone or entity always does and will do. We as an organisation(ARLC) need to identify this and act in the best interest of the game as a whole and move forward accordingly.

The northern suburbs of Sydney need and must have a team of their own that everyone in that area wants to and likes to follow. Whether it is Manly or not is irrelevant to the game as a whole, but preferable. If possible we do not want to disenfranchise any existing fans and also lose all that history and tradition. But if it came to it as they presently stand, they offer very little to the well being of the NRL overall other then being part of the makeup of an 8 game a week setup that any other expansion region franchise could easily provide with probably better overall numbers from the get go.

The new metro station will be much closer to NSO
 
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