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Dragons To Break Away From Illawarra.

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,708
So what does the 27% represent in terms of actual additional bums on seats?

Which teams did we play at home in the respective years as some opponents will draw better than others and you can't necessarily attribute all the additional bums on seats to the JV partner.

I'm not au fait with the numbers but if the average pre JV was say 16,000 bums on seats / home game and say we had 65% of the crowd then that means 10,400 are Dragon supporters and if all the additional 27% (drawing a long bow with that due to above point re opponents) were Illawarra related that means approx.4,320 Wollongong bums on seats (fair enough maybe a little bit more if St George diehards didn't travel but not too many I suspect).

If the number for home games is less than 16,000 and if the opponents drew bigger crowds then the %'s get worse re actual numbers..

So hardly earth shattering and where did the rest of the Steeler supporters go or was that it.
See you’re trying to sub segment again & look for the exception to prove the rule.

The pre includes 2 (well 3 if you take ‘97) full Kogarah seasons.

The 27% rise post JV includes the split between the two towns.

I’ve posted my source. Go read for yourself if you believe the figures are incorrect.

I’m sure any club would love to have a 27% growth in crowds year on year.

This is just one of the many reasons why the JV is a good thing & we need a clean out at the top.
 

avocado

Juniors
Messages
1,265
How has the joint name contributed nothing?

Plenty more fans follow the red v now due to having a larger catchment area, one that is the fastest growing in the state.

Why would you remove something that has grown the supporter base?
I’m also a convert. Mad Steelers supporter but welcomed the JV.
If Illawarra was dropped from the name it wouldn’t bother me one bit. I’ve long since moved from Thirroul so I don’t know enough fellow converts to know if I’m in the minority.
What I’d actually like to see is the club called St George, but any games played at WIN we wear the Steelers jersey (a real Steelers jersey, not the red abortion we’ve been using in recent years)
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
See you’re trying to sub segment again & look for the exception to prove the rule.

The pre includes 2 (well 3 if you take ‘97) full Kogarah seasons.

The 27% rise post JV includes the split between the two towns.

I’ve posted my source. Go read for yourself if you believe the figures are incorrect.

I’m sure any club would love to have a 27% growth in crowds year on year.

This is just one of the many reasons why the JV is a good thing & we need a clean out at the top.
Not at all.

The raw numbers do need to be analysed to understand what they mean in real terms.

I am not saying the whole numbers are incorrect but like any reasonable marketing person I am just trying to understand the make up of the base numbers and what the increase equates to and how much is a direct result of the JV partner
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,708
Not at all.

The raw numbers do need to be analysed to understand what they mean in real terms.

I am not saying the whole numbers are incorrect but like any reasonable marketing person I am just trying to understand the make up of the base numbers and what the increase equates to and how much is a direct result of the JV partner
Feel free to go and have a look for yourself..

But 1996 was the highest average home crowd for St George during the 1990s - 11,167.

1997 dropped to 7,222 (but we’ll ignore that year due to super league)
1998 it was 10,394 (down 8% from grand final year)
1999 12,712 (up 27% from prior year and 15% from the previous grand final year)

Are we honestly sitting here debating whether or not expanding your catchment area would increase your audience?
 

SaintPauli

Juniors
Messages
1,179
I’m also a convert. Mad Steelers supporter but welcomed the JV.
If Illawarra was dropped from the name it wouldn’t bother me one bit. I’ve long since moved from Thirroul so I don’t know enough fellow converts to know if I’m in the minority.
What I’d actually like to see is the club called St George, but any games played at WIN we wear the Steelers jersey (a real Steelers jersey, not the red abortion we’ve been using in recent years)
Yep you have the right attitude avocado. St George simply easier for marketing , maintaining original proud history and commentry too. Happy for steelers heritage geursey for heritage round or even games at gong, acknowledging historical links.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,708
Yep you have the right attitude avocado. St George simply easier for marketing , maintaining original proud history and commentry too. Happy for steelers heritage geursey for heritage round or even games at gong, acknowledging historical links.
So building on that, if we took 40% of the funding away from the JV, and let’s say 25% of members - how would we survive?
 

grouch

First Grade
Messages
8,393
I noticed last week that the Illawarra Hawks are being rescued from liquidation (again) only this time they are dropping Illawarra from the moniker and just going with "Hawks". This is supposedly to broaden their appeal, because every elite level sporting club in Wollongong has been a bust. They might have a good idea there, we should borrow it.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,708
I noticed last week that the Illawarra Hawks are being rescued from liquidation (again) only this time they are dropping Illawarra from the moniker and just going with "Hawks". This is supposedly to broaden their appeal, because every elite level sporting club in Wollongong has been a bust. They might have a good idea there, we should borrow it.
Do you often see basketball in Australia as a leader in sports innovation?
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
Feel free to go and have a look for yourself..

But 1996 was the highest average home crowd for St George during the 1990s - 11,167.

1997 dropped to 7,222 (but we’ll ignore that year due to super league)
1998 it was 10,394 (down 8% from grand final year)
1999 12,712 (up 27% from prior year and 15% from the previous grand final year)

Are we honestly sitting here debating whether or not expanding your catchment area would increase your audience?
No that is not what we are debating.

What we are debating is the numbers provided and what they actually mean in cold hard facts i.e. bums on seats and how many of them are people who followed the Steelers.

As pointed out just taking the raw data and extrapolating that as an increase solely due to Illawarra influence is not necessarily correct as a lot of factors come into play.

In the end I suppose the burning questions are these

  1. Could St George have played brinkmanship and gone it alone and ultimately survived and maybe courted another investor?
  2. Could the Steelers have gone it alone and challenged other Sydney clubs so as to get a franchise?
  3. Could the Steelers have courted another JV partner other than St George but obviously that partner would have had to have had a strong balance sheet or also endure debt to the NRL?
  4. If St George had survived and the Steelers folded what then became of the players and supporters from that region?
  5. If the JV was absolutely a necessity if St George had of stuck to their guns and said no Illawarra in the name what would have transpired?
Looking at some of the numbers provided by the source you used and looking at the way I used those numbers in the previous post the other burning question is that whilst some Steelers people did in fact embrace / support / suffer the JV what actually happened to the other supporters as it is apparent under any use of the numbers that not many actually bothered to turn out to support the new entity.

Maybe some Steelers supporters went back to following local footy or perhaps they don't like St George and decided to wear a different footy cap on the weekends.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,708
That must have been the board's rationale when they sold the farm to a cheapskate in Bermuda so his deadshit son would have something to play with, instead of selling it to the smart, successful, passionate owner of the Sydney Kings
The grass is always greener..

That being said, are you advocating to remove the Illawarra name completely or are you looking for better Illawarra ownership?

It’s not clear..
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,708
No that is not what we are debating.

What we are debating is the numbers provided and what they actually mean in cold hard facts i.e. bums on seats and how many of them are people who followed the Steelers.

As pointed out just taking the raw data and extrapolating that as an increase solely due to Illawarra influence is not necessarily correct as a lot of factors come into play.

In the end I suppose the burning questions are these

  1. Could St George have played brinkmanship and gone it alone and ultimately survived and maybe courted another investor?
  2. Could the Steelers have gone it alone and challenged other Sydney clubs so as to get a franchise?
  3. Could the Steelers have courted another JV partner other than St George but obviously that partner would have had to have had a strong balance sheet or also endure debt to the NRL?
  4. If St George had survived and the Steelers folded what then became of the players and supporters from that region?
  5. If the JV was absolutely a necessity if St George had of stuck to their guns and said no Illawarra in the name what would have transpired?
Looking at some of the numbers provided by the source you used and looking at the way I used those numbers in the previous post the other burning question is that whilst some Steelers people did in fact embrace / support / suffer the JV what actually happened to the other supporters as it is apparent under any use of the numbers that not many actually bothered to turn out to support the new entity.

Maybe some Steelers supporters went back to following local footy or perhaps they don't like St George and decided to wear a different footy cap on the weekends.
Why are you making it about the Steelers again?

The debate is would st George be stronger alone.

The fact remains that the home crowd numbers went up when St George started the joint venture.

As for your “burning questions” these really are just hypothetical questions from history which can’t be answered correctly by anyone.
 

Richard Gay Was God

First Grade
Messages
5,599
It doesn't help when the 'St George' side of things completely f**ks us over on an annual basis. Still the same old cronies that represent our 50% of the JV Board such as Peter Black and Ralph Piggott. Dousty now back there also after coming back as Deputy Chair of Saints Leagues. The McClelland's kept their foot in the water by getting Dougie's daughter in law on to the Leagues Club board so am sure when we want a Women on the board to represent diversity that she will be first cab off the rank.

Craig Young on the Leagues Club board and head of St George District Rugby League club. He will also be lined up to go on to the JV Board again I'm sure. Warren Lockwood still there on the Saints Leagues Board and probably due for another stint on the JV board.

The nepotism is ghastly and the way we sold out our casting vote and the Chairman seat for someone to simply pay off the debt was criminal.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
Why are you making it about the Steelers again?

The debate is would st George be stronger alone.

The fact remains that the home crowd numbers went up when St George started the joint venture.

As for your “burning questions” these really are just hypothetical questions from history which can’t be answered correctly by anyone.
muzby
The question for me and some others is on the evidence of actual numbers of support from non St George people in the JV should the name Illawarra be part of it and should we be wearing alternates strips on home games.
Would you follow the team if it was just St George?
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,708
muzby
The question for me and some others is on the evidence of actual numbers of support from non St George people in the JV should the name Illawarra be part of it and should we be wearing alternates strips on home games.
Would you follow the team if it was just St George?
I would cheer on St George in the Canterbury Cup, as given the mismanagement & financial strife seen over the past quarter of a century I can’t see them surviving on their own in first grade..

Particularly in the current climate where there are too many Sydney teams..

And it’s a shame that you view others who support the Dragons as “non St George people”..
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
I would cheer on St George in the Canterbury Cup, as given the mismanagement & financial strife seen over the past quarter of a century I can’t see them surviving on their own in first grade..

Particularly in the current climate where there are too many Sydney teams..

And it’s a shame that you view others who support the Dragons as “non St George people”..
You keep beetling on about the CC as the outcome for St George which is IMO sensationalising on your part as there is no evidence other than your continued slight against them to say that would be the case.

So in effect if you followed St George that means that the name Illawarra isn’t actually that important as you possibly think that St George in CC is better than no Steelers or no Illawarra?

As we are talking about the Illawarra’s additional influence on the pre JV attendance numbers I am more than entitled to refer to them as non St George supporters in an effort to differentiate where the numbers come from and you are clearly misinterpreting the intent of that comment.

If I claimed them to have always been St George supporters you would have quickly parried that and said only because of the JV and in fact that at heart they were Steelers originally.
 
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