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2021 - Squad, Signings, Re-signings

Crush

Coach
Messages
10,411
Possm
Send me the highlights of these guys playing in the big red v

Ffs there aren’t any and never will be

You like others have often asked why don’t our juniors get a crack at NRL well the reason is the likes of Williame & Fuimaono.
I think Williame and Fuimaono have shown some promise?
They've been inconsistent for sure but I'd like to see a little more before I put the red line through them.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
I think Williame and Fuimaono have shown some promise?
They've been inconsistent for sure but I'd like to see a little more before I put the red line through them.
Unfortunately we have had so many Williame & Fuimaono signings that I have long gone past any expectations for them or the likes there of.

If they had of come to us off the back of some tried and proven performances at other NRL clubs and they themselves had blocked pathways due to the depth at those clubs then that might be another matter but clearly that is not the case with either of them.

Then unfortunately due to the poor nature of our overall recruitment and the lack of progression of juniors in our pathways programme (lol) then some of us have "greater expectations" for these types of signings as people want something to believe in in an effort to get our club out of the doldrums where it now wallows.

The sun sets so quickly on the form of so many of our players and whilst that happens the sun rises so late on others and for others the sun never rises at all that it is the real tragedy of it all.
 

boardlumps62

Juniors
Messages
1,481
So whose got the inside rumour on Paul Vaughn. He seems to be flatlining and pulls a stunt with going outside the bubble.
 

Dragonsteve2

Juniors
Messages
542
Our side has that many holes in it it will take at least 2 years to sort it out and that can only happen if we sign a reputable and well respected coach who can attract players.

It is long proven at this time that we can only attract "so called top end" players by paying "overs" and even then their contribution has been less than favourable as far as results are concerned.

I am amazed that the likes of Williame & Fuimaono still figure in peoples team lists as we move forward. Neither were "marquis" signings or signings that w had to compete with other clubs to secure them.

Williame & Fuimaono are exactly the types of signings that have geniused the progress of our youth and should therefore be dispensed with.

If people are honest they provide nothing that would suggest they are the difference between top 8 or top 4 or essential to wing the comp.

What is it that that type of player brings to the 1st grade team that a promising junior does not?

They're chaff at best and even playing them in CC means that we block the path of decent young talent that needs key game time to get them ready for 1st grade. By securing a decent coach we should be ab;e to formulate a proper pathway that ensures that our club is capable of fielding 18, 19 or 20 year old's to blood them as is the case with the best clubs in the comp where there is a plethoras of young guys making their way and are not held back due to reliance on or preference for journeymen.

OT, I agree it would take at the very least two seasons to plug the holes, to recover from the cancer that has been growing in the club during the last seven years. I share your disappointment with Fuimaona who I thought showed promise initially. As the season has progressed he has been less effective, has dropped a few balls and given away some penalties. Then again it could be argued that there has been an inconsistency to his selection. Some long minutes on the edge, some long minutes at lock and some ridiculously short spells as impact off the bench. I think you are harsh on Williame on the basis that he has hardly played.

There is one area of special concern to me in being critical of some current players. Most of us on here agree on the shortcomings of the coach. It seems logical to me then that some players are below the best they could be with a competent coach.

The other issue is we do need to put together a squad of 30. At this point we seem to be struggling to find replacements to come to the club. So I would suggest there is little point in having a long list of players to discard until there is an expectation of decent replacements. As one example, I think Aitken has made a much better fist of the left side than his years on the right. Yes, he bombed a try last week because he didn't pass but there were successive games where he did deliver passes for tries. A pair of miracles on previous years' form. Perhaps with a competent coach he could have further upside.

We both know how Mary has been very timid in introducing young stars to the team. He probably thinks he masterminded Lomax's introduction to the NRL while we would argue he set his development back a season. So we want the next coach to give young talent a go. But right now most of the promising young brigade with no 20s and no CC will have had little footy for 18 months before the next season kicks off. How it affects them is an unknown.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,691
Any of the younger players who might be in CC or Flegg or perhaps you think we don’t have any such players?

My post is about principal rather than individual names.

I'm not making the claims so I don't need to name anybody.

So just on principle, without actually being able to name players who are ready to fill those positions, you don't want to recruit players in those positions?
 

Dragonslayer

First Grade
Messages
7,679
Hard to put a line through anybody really, unless they're hell bent on leaving onntheir own accord. Our current players especially our juniors, have known nobody other than McGregor as head coach of the Dragons. Even young Host, who many want to get rid of, hasnt known any other style of play other than whats been dished up by our illustrious leader.

I really like what I see happening at the Titans and at the Knights. Like because the changes made to the coaching staff has turned players who were well below average to better than average players. Titans, in particular, will be very strong moving forward with a very good coach and astute backing (Meninga in particular) and excellent revruitement, and I expect the same improvement in the Warriors in the coming years.

Wether it be Hosty or Fui or Dufty or whoever, at the very least a season under a new coach will give us all a better understanding of a player and his abilities.

We have some very promising youngsters coming through, unfortunately, the vast majority are backs with only Luke Gale being the stand-out (george dragon known a lot more than me in this area) forward. Add to this no CC this year, so basically, no guide as to who is developing, in fact, some may have degressed.

Lets not be too hasty with the red pen just as yet.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
Ok so you're outraged and want people promoted to first grade, without naming anyone or saying what it will fix?
My position has been made extremely clear over many years.

The signing of journeymen plodders with little to no form line geniuss the progression of youthful players within our system.

While ever the likes of these plodders keep getting selected we remain in the dark as to how good our junior stocks actually are.

Whether that be a Herbert or a Garrick or a Sailor or a Sele or a Host or a Leilua or a Lomax or a Saab or a Blacker etc etc etc all of them and others have had less than a fair go in respect of making it at NRL level.

The likes of a Latimore or a Lafai or a Norman or a Pereira or a Williame or a Fuimaono will never win you a comp and their repeated selections over long periods will only blind you to what potential lies within the ranks of the club.

Whilst Williame has been injured and doesn’t fit the exact criteria I am positive that if not for injury would have been picked religiously as was Lafai before him.

So I have outlined the issue and provided a solution so not sure how you are missing that.

Other clubs have 18, 19, 20 year olds playing regularly and we do not do that is the simple truth of the matter.

People might say Lomax is proof to the opposite of what I am saying but even his route was torturous and poorly handled as he should have been there long before now.
 
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Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
I'm not making the claims so I don't need to name anybody.

So just on principle, without actually being able to name players who are ready to fill those positions, you don't want to recruit players in those positions?
You obviously didn’t read my post very carefully.

I am very happy to recruit quality players capable of playing NRL and making the difference.

I am not happy to recruit pluggers and planks who offer next to SFA and all the while blocking the progress of juniors who came through our system or were purchased in from other clubs.

I am all ears to hear the on field benefits that all the planks we have had purchased bought to the team and the enjoyment of the fan base.
 

Como Connection

First Grade
Messages
5,909
My position has been made extremely clear over many years.

The signing of journeymen plodders with little to no form line geniuss the progression of youthful players within our system.

While ever the likes of these plodders keep getting selected we remain in the dark as to how good our junior stocks actually are.

Whether that be a Herbert or a Garrick or a Sailor or a Sele or a Host or a Leilua or a Lomax or a Saab or a Blacker etc etc etc all of them and others have had less than a fair go in respect of making it at NRL level.

The likes of a Latimore or a Lafai or a Norman or a Pereira or a Williame or a Fuimaono will never win you a comp and their repeated selections over long periods will only blind you to what potential lies within the ranks of the club.

Whilst Williame has been injured and doesn’t fit the exact criteria I am positive that if not for injury would have been picked religiously as was Lafai before him.

So I have outlined the issue and provided a solution so not sure how you are missing that.

Other clubs have 18, 19, 20 year olds playing regularly and we do not do that is the simple truth of the matter.

People might say Lomax is proof to the opposite of what I am saying but even his route was torturous and poorly handled as he should have been there long before now.
Remember Kurt Mann!
CC
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,691
You obviously didn’t read my post very carefully.

I am very happy to recruit quality players capable of playing NRL and making the difference.

I am not happy to recruit pluggers and planks who offer next to SFA and all the while blocking the progress of juniors who came through our system or were purchased in from other clubs.

I am all ears to hear the on field benefits that all the planks we have had purchased bought to the team and the enjoyment of the fan base.

I read it fine thankyou.

So you are happy to block their progress by buying better players? They're still blocking players who have come through our system. Alternatively, you are happy to give them free entry into first grade without any challenge?

Tyrell has played 10 games for us - with limited minutes off the bench for most of them. Hardly an opportunity to provide a "highlights package" in the red V.

Williame has played 4 - again no opportunity to provide highlights. Additionally, not really enough to be considered "blocking".

Additionally, nothing is preventing Mary from selecting the youngsters in the team if they are better. It's not the players that are blocking their advancement, it's Mary. Even if we did promote the juniors, we still need players competing in the lower grade.

Alternatively, for comparison and as an example, show me the "highlights package" for Host in first grade? He's had 47 games in first grade. Is he being blocked? I think he's had plenty of chances to put a stamp on a position and yet you keep calling for his inclusion.

I don't think you've thought this through.
 

Como Connection

First Grade
Messages
5,909
I read it fine thankyou.

So you are happy to block their progress by buying better players? They're still blocking players who have come through our system. Alternatively, you are happy to give them free entry into first grade without any challenge?

Tyrell has played 10 games for us - with limited minutes off the bench for most of them. Hardly an opportunity to provide a "highlights package" in the red V.

Williame has played 4 - again no opportunity to provide highlights. Additionally, not really enough to be considered "blocking".

Additionally, nothing is preventing Mary from selecting the youngsters in the team if they are better. It's not the players that are blocking their advancement, it's Mary. Even if we did promote the juniors, we still need players competing in the lower grade.

Alternatively, for comparison and as an example, show me the "highlights package" for Host in first grade? He's had 47 games in first grade. Is he being blocked? I think he's had plenty of chances to put a stamp on a position and yet you keep calling for his inclusion.

I don't think you've thought this through.
Host a keeper for me with a new coach.
CC
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,691
Host a keeper for me with a new coach.
CC

He might be - and as I've said before, I don't think you can say any of the players are absolute duds until we get a better coach. As I said to OT, it's not the players blocking pathways, it's Mary. If one of the juniors is a standout, he should be chosen. However it seems stupid to just select them because they are juniors of the club. You need to get the best players on the field - whether they're from our pathways or from the outside, and we're never going to do that until we get a new coach.
 

possm

Coach
Messages
15,587
Not a fan of letting anyone go if it's going to mess up our salary cap.


Re-Sign (of those off contract this year):

de Belin (for purposes of this exercise he gets off his legal proceedings end of this month)
Host
Sailor
Ellis
Brittain

Target from outside the club:

Alex Johnston
Christian Welch

Squad based on all of this:

COACH: Shane Flanagan (JDB getting off in this exercise so why can't Flanno)

The following would be my starting 13, Round 1 2021:

1. Dufty*
2. Johnston
3. Z Lomax
4. Feagai (Centre Feagai)
5. Ravalawa*
6. Sailor
7. Clune
8. de Belin
9. Hunt*
10. Vaughan*
11. T Sims*
12. Welch
13. McInnes

Spots 14-21... make your bench spots up out of the following with the rest leading the way in reggies:

14. Kerr
15. Host*
16. Lawrie*
17. Ford
18. Fuimaono*
19. Blacker
20. Ellis*
21. Brittain*

Extended squad:

22. Sullivan
23. Ramsey
24. Williame*
25. Feagai (Winger Feagai)

Deadwood Category:

26. Norman*
27. Merrin*
28. K Sims*
29. Saab*
30. Pereira*

Top of the Development Squad:
- Schiller
- H Lomax

* = ON NOTICE (feel free to add if I've missed someone or subtract if I'm being too harsh)

Basically:

1. Install a new coach + recruitment/retention/pathways manager.

2. Re-sign those needed (and worthy).

3. Focus on the astute signings from outside the club (Johnston & Welch).

3. The above squad, while still plenty of players on massive overs, could easily play under the cap in 2021 (given that we are owed plenty seeing Frizell, Graham and Lafai have already moved on not to mention Aitken also to come off the books in this scenario). Any extra money left over dangle as a carrot for upgrades to anyone deserving (McInnes for example).

4. Deadwood category are in NSW Cup or Illawarra League. These players are not to go anywhere if we have to pay anything for the pleasure (especially Saab).

5. Makes things interesting in 2021 and also for 2022 - plenty of cap space available if we can eventually force the release of some of the deadwood, and those on notice will have to perform if they want to continue playing here or be attractive to other clubs.

... but again, we will only be able to pull this off with a decent coach / man manager in charge.
All I can say is that it is very apparent that you have given this list a great deal of thought. I have no real problems with it as it does solve some of our problems and so, with new coaching and recruitment staff, we may be able to compete in 2021 and be ready to make a grand final in 2022.

I have always wanted to make a grand final in the next season when it was clear we could not make it in the current season. So let's look at each position:

1. Dufty or Ramsey
Dufty is very good in attack from the fullback position but suffers when it comes to taking the high ball and too light-weight leading him to be rag dolled to behind his try line or over the sideline. Even though he is much younger, Ramsey has no trouble with the high ball, positional play or his defense. So I believe it is time to move Dufty to 6 and Ramsey to 1.

2. Left-wing
Johnson would be a very good fit on the left-wing however, I am sure he would rather play fullback or centre. I think that Ramsey will do a good job at fullback however, if this does not go well there would always be Johnson to fill in.

3. Right Centre
Lomax is by far the best right centre in the Club so, no contest there.

4. Left Centre
Unless it is decided to buy another centre, I'd say that either Williame or Feagai will fill the left-centre spot. I feel the player who performs best in the off-season training program may win the contest.

5. Right Wing
With Saab moving on, the only contest for the right wing position seems to be between Ravalawa and Feagai. I'd say Ravalawa has the inside running and that Feagai will get his chance through injury to Ravalawa or though his own good form.

6. Five-eighth
I do hope that Norman is moved on before season 2021 and if this happens my choice for five-eighth is Dufty. When you look at his rugby league history this is not such a surprise decision. Dufty played five-eighth in his junior career and only switched to fullback at the beckoning of Hornby when he was his coach in under-20s. I truly believe that Dufty has all the attributes, except for his defensive skills, that he need to make the 6 position his own. Our new coach may have to employ defensive plans similar to Bennett where Scott was position to support Soward in defense.

7. Halfback
Clune is currently the best performing halfback in the Club. If another Club wanted to sign Hunt right now, we should not stand in the way, however, Hunt is doing a fine job at hooker all-be-it being a very expensive hooker.

8. Right Prop
If De Delin becomes available would see him filling this position very well. However, if he is not available I believe we need to recruit a hard-nosed NRL experienced prop. We are again experiencing the problem of a soft under-belle which was there prior to Bennett taking over in 2009.

9. Hooker
Hunt is doing a great job at hooker and if possible, I think he should stay there. If Hunt moves on I would like to see Britain given his chance to prove his suitability.

10. Left Prop

By far our best prop, Vaughan will be a great loss if we lose him to South Sydney. I'm hoping he will stay once a new coach is announced. However, I doubt Vaughan will stay if D Young is appointed interim coach. In the case that the 10 position does become vacant, I'd say we need to recruit a hard-nosed NRL experienced prop.

11. Left Secondrow Forward
Sims is our second best secondrow forward behind Frizell. Over past two seasons, he has lost form and enthusiasm. Let's hope that with the announcement of our new coach Sims will be on the boil again.

12. Right Secondrower
Frizell is leaving and even though we have know this for a couple of months now, the Dragons have not announced a replacement. It is very important that we recruit a top-line NRL forward to replace Frizell as, if we do not do so, we will find ourselves with a degraded forward pack.

13. Lock
The experiment of selecting McInnes at lock and Hunt at hooker is considered to be a big success by most followers of the game. Even if De Belin becomes available, I would prefer McInnes at lock in this new '6 again' format. 'We are desperate for top NRL experienced props and so JDB may very well suit this position.

Bench
Kerr
Blacker
Ford
Fuimaono

Two of our big young props coming off the bench. If we selected them for the remainder of the year, maybe after a big pre-season they will be ready to go in 2021.

Also two of our most versatile backrowers able to play on the edge. Both mobile giving us a bench of 4 forwards, plenty of youth, and versatility.
 
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denis preston

First Grade
Messages
8,157
He might be - and as I've said before, I don't think you can say any of the players are absolute duds until we get a better coach. As I said to OT, it's not the players blocking pathways, it's Mary. If one of the juniors is a standout, he should be chosen. However it seems stupid to just select them because they are juniors of the club. You need to get the best players on the field - whether they're from our pathways or from the outside, and we're never going to do that until we get a new coach.

Exactly.I suspect the improvement in the younger players will show how bad Mcblocker really was but also for me why shouldn't Young and the development coaches be also under the microscope ? They have been part of this as well. Favorite story from a player dropped last year and after requesting specific feedback to where he needed to improve was told by Mcimposter "train harder " The fact that he couldn't get much better from Young & Hornby shows something. This same player is getting great advice from Flanagan & the other assistant.Only trouble is the same game plans & patterns the head coach is insistent on.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,691
Exactly.I suspect the improvement in the younger players will show how bad Mcblocker really was but also for me why shouldn't Young and the development coaches be also under the microscope ? They have been part of this as well. Favorite story from a player dropped last year and after requesting specific feedback to where he needed to improve was told by Mcimposter "train harder " The fact that he couldn't get much better from Young & Hornby shows something. This same player is getting great advice from Flanagan & the other assistant.Only trouble is the same game plans & patterns the head coach is insistent on.

Yes you are right - it's not just about Mary (although the buck does stop with him). There has to be some blame attributed to the assistant coaches over the years as well. If what you say is correct, then that does explain a lot - especially the game plan comment. Some small variations in attack, but the game plan is essentially the same.
 

Dragon Revival

Juniors
Messages
1,603
While the Dragons have four coaches paid collectively $1.5-$2million that win barely 30% of games I believe it is a waste of time recruiting marquis players as they do not want to play here. Buy developing players and have a strong pathways progamme. I believe that Millward is trying to do his best with a hopeless coach. Ellis, Pereira and Williame look good solid players while Ramsey, Ravalawa and Schiller have good potential. Ford and Gale have good qualities while Fuimaono looks the goods but is a bit small and makes stupid mistakes. Host looked a great running forward until Mary stuffed him around plYing him middle and warming the bench. Dufty is finally showing his porential. Clune is all class. Sailor has hardly been given a go. Saab is not up to the mark. We should have players in positions where we rate them at least seven out of ten and if not give another player a go who is performing in Canterbury Cup.
 

possm

Coach
Messages
15,587
Yes you are right - it's not just about Mary (although the buck does stop with him). There has to be some blame attributed to the assistant coaches over the years as well. If what you say is correct, then that does explain a lot - especially the game plan comment. Some small variations in attack, but the game plan is essentially the same.
I'd say the experiment of having Millward work outside the coaching staff and reporting directly to the CEO has failed. So I would like to see the recruitment/retention/pathways/list management all be split up and be handled by separate people who report directly to the head coach. Millward also needs to go.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
I read it fine thankyou.

So you are happy to block their progress by buying better players? They're still blocking players who have come through our system. Alternatively, you are happy to give them free entry into first grade without any challenge?

Tyrell has played 10 games for us - with limited minutes off the bench for most of them. Hardly an opportunity to provide a "highlights package" in the red V.

Williame has played 4 - again no opportunity to provide highlights. Additionally, not really enough to be considered "blocking".

Additionally, nothing is preventing Mary from selecting the youngsters in the team if they are better. It's not the players that are blocking their advancement, it's Mary. Even if we did promote the juniors, we still need players competing in the lower grade.

Alternatively, for comparison and as an example, show me the "highlights package" for Host in first grade? He's had 47 games in first grade. Is he being blocked? I think he's had plenty of chances to put a stamp on a position and yet you keep calling for his inclusion.

I don't think you've thought this through.

We all know Mary is the major issue and if not there things potentially change.

So in this thread like many other threads ideas are offered up as to how things might change for the better on the basis of Mary staying or for that matter going and what might / should happen under the new coach.

I offered lots of names of those blocked and I see that you honed in on Host well it's not just about Host it is about the majority of young players and if you don't like Host and wouldn't pick / keep him that's ok but lets not lose sight of the principal.

Now in talking about Host you sight he has "played" 47 games well that is drawing a long bow as he might have been named in 47 games but on some occasions he didn't take the field and on other occasions he got SFA game time and on most occasions he has been ignored by the dominant halves / hooker as they favour certain players.

Now while TF has played 10 games for us he has in fact been selected 36 times in 1st grade amongst the three clubs he has played for so it is not as if he is not known and thus the reason why I question his signing and continued selection as I am yet to see anything that says he has something that Host doesn't. By the way I am not easily swayed on the basis of players making a "big tackle" every now and then.

I did acknowledge Williame had not played many games and is out injured but given the nature of our coach Williame is typically the type of player he will pick before he would even consider the likes of a young up and coming player as was evidenced in Lafai & Aitken's continued selection despite providing SFA for 2 or more seasons.

If Williame is not selected in 1st grade he will just sit in CC and there he will block some younger player and when that younger players name is thrown up people will say "he hasn't played against men" well they never will while you have the likes of Williame, Maranta, Nicholls, Runciman etc running around filling spots and making debuts for our club when they cant make the roster at any other club.
 
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