New Zealand - what should the plan be?

[flippikat]

Honestly the best thing that could happen in NZ is if there was a local national competition in NZ, but the NZRL is incompetent and the NRL doesn't have the balls or the vision to do it themselves, so it will never happen.

The "Lion Red Cup" in the 1990s showed a lot of promise. Something like that again would be ace.

 

[mikeob]

even if you just took the kiwis from my team and put them in warriors it would make them regularly top 4 team. Warriors need to be the club every kiwi, wether in Australia or nz dreams of running out for. It’s not lack of kiwi jnrs that’s the problem for warriors.

Big Nelson signed at 15years from Wellington
Brandon Smith signed from Townsville where he moved as a kid
Jesse and Kenny Bromwich from Auckland Jesse signed @20 Kenny @16
Jahrome Hughes from Wellington signed for roosters at 16
Albert Vete Jnr kiwi signed from the warriors
Felise Kaufisi signed from cowboys, moved to australia when kid
Kelma Tuilagi yet to make first grade debut

Nearly all the names on that list have one thing in common. They came through the juniors in Australia and that is where the system in NZ is not on par with Australia. You could add a lot of other names to that list. Alex Glen and Jason Taumalolo just to mention two.

 

[Matua]

Nearly all the names on that list have one thing in common. They came through the juniors in Australia and that is where the system in NZ is not on par with Australia. You could add a lot of other names to that list. Alex Glen and Jason Taumalolo just to mention two.

Although it's hard to know how their careers, and many others, would have shaped up as they were taken early. RTS and Tohu managed to develop ok in the NZ system (which includes their time in rugby) - they both went over at U20s.

Problem for the Warriors I guess is which of the NZ talent floating around they pick up. There's always going to be guys who slip through the cracks. It's not like the Warriors are the only ones either ... Slater and Smith really shouldn't have wound up at the Storm.

 

[The Great Dane]

Nearly all the names on that list have one thing in common. They came through the juniors in Australia and that is where the system in NZ is not on par with Australia. You could add a lot of other names to that list. Alex Glen and Jason Taumalolo just to mention two.

I used to rile a mate up by saying NZ RL was 'made in Australia from local and imported ingredients'. It's hard to deny that there's a lot of truth to it though...

 

[flippikat]

I used to rile a mate up by saying NZ RL was 'made in Australia from local and imported ingredients'. It's hard to deny that there's a lot of truth to it though...

There's a very similar culture shared between Australian RL and New Zealand RU. At an elite level, if you're not winning, you're nothing.

Just look at the response when the All Blacks or Kangaroos lose a close game.. and contrast that against the Kiwis losing a closely fought contest.

It's a clear contrast with NZ RL, where "being competitive" is often considered good enough. That's IMO why NZ RL players generally turn out better when developed through Australian systems - they get that "win at all costs" mentality driven into them.

For that reason, I personally would welcome the NRL coming in and RUNNING (not *just* decently funding) the NZRL, with the aim to make NZ RL a winning operation: 2-3 strong NRL clubs, a Kiwis team that often beats the Kangaroos, pathways here for players, including youth competitions & a national league.

 

[T-Boon]

Some good points being raised.
The best thing for RL would be for NZ to have its own 8 team competition with no team in the NRL.
If that isn't feasible then 3 teams in the NRL would be good for the NRL and not disastrous for RL in general.

 

[flippikat]

Some good points being raised.
The best thing for RL would be for NZ to have its own 8 team competition with no team in the NRL.
If that isn't feasible then 3 teams in the NRL would be good for the NRL and not disastrous for RL in general.

An 8 team NZ comp with no NRL teams from NZ will only work *if* the salary cap for the NZ comp is the same (or arguably more than - as the metropolitan lifestyle in an Australian city is a big draw) the NRL.

Otherwise, the best players from that comp will always be headhunted by Australian NRL clubs - so the NZ comp becomes a de facto under-21 comp, supplemented with some journeymen provincial players that are not quite good enough for the NRL.

I'd rather have a domestic comp that feeds into 3 NZ NRL clubs.. maybe with each of those clubs under 21 squads in the domestic comp.

The 3 NRL clubs reserves would play in expanded NSW or Qld Cup, as for players contracted to the NZ NRL Clubs, that would be the step between the NZ Comp & NRL First Grade.. and it would give them a chance to play week-in week-out against other NRL Clubs fringe players.

 

[T-Boon]

An 8 team NZ comp with no NRL teams from NZ will only work *if* the salary cap for the NZ comp is the same (or arguably more than - as the metropolitan lifestyle in an Australian city is a big draw) the NRL.

Otherwise, the best players from that comp will always be headhunted by Australian NRL clubs - so the NZ comp becomes a de facto under-21 comp, supplemented with some journeymen provincial players that are not quite good enough for the NRL.

I'd rather have a domestic comp that feeds into 3 NZ NRL clubs.. maybe with each of those clubs under 21 squads in the domestic comp.

The 3 NRL clubs reserves would play in expanded NSW or Qld Cup, as for players contracted to the NZ NRL Clubs, that would be the step between the NZ Comp & NRL First Grade.. and it would give them a chance to play week-in week-out against other NRL Clubs fringe players.

Very true. So I agree the best outcome overall is 3 NZ NRL teams (do they really not already have a national domestic comp?)

 

[titoelcolombiano]

A diehard Kiwi league fan mate of mine suggests that Christchurch, not Wellington is the clear place RL should expand to next. He cites the North / South Island rivalry and the amount of ''Rugby'' talent in Christchurch as the reason.

Also, I love that the NZ pathways are being looked at as a whole at the moment.

 

[flippikat]

Very true. So I agree the best outcome overall is 3 NZ NRL teams (do they really not already have a national domestic comp?)

There's a the club scene (which is pretty much locally based, not nationwide) then after that season ends, a domestic national comp at provincial level, but the provincial stuff is extremely low profile.

Basically the 4 strongest provinces (currently Auckland, Counties, Waikato, Canterbury) and in a premier division, and all play each other with a final at the end. Below that, there's a 2nd tier which is split into 2 separate competitions (North Island & South Island). I think there's some promotion/relegation aspect to it too, as Wellington went down a wee while ago and now play against the likes of Manawatu & Northland in the 2nd tier.

 

[The Great Dane]

The 3 NRL clubs reserves would play in expanded NSW or Qld Cup, as for players contracted to the NZ NRL Clubs, that would be the step between the NZ Comp & NRL First Grade.. and it would give them a chance to play week-in week-out against other NRL Clubs fringe players.

You'd want that talent in the NZ competition, not in NSW and Qld where it's not needed.

2 or 3 NRL clubs plus a NZ competition effectively acting as another second tier would be the way to go.

It would probably be best to start the NZ competition long before you plan to add more NZ teams to the NRL, that would give the NZ comp time to build a following without being totally overshadowed by the shiny new NRL teams.
The structure of the broadcasting deals would be super important as well, you'd need to organise them in a way that promotes the NZ comp over the NRL, otherwise the NZ comp will probably struggle for attention, and even then you'd still need a heavy focus on how you market and brand the NZ comp to draw attention away from the NRL.

But again an national competition in NZ will never happen.

 

[The Great Dane]

For that reason, I personally would welcome the NRL coming in and RUNNING (not *just* decently funding) the NZRL, with the aim to make NZ RL a winning operation: 2-3 strong NRL clubs, a Kiwis team that often beats the Kangaroos, pathways here for players, including youth competitions & a national league.

I've thought for a while that the best outcome for RL in NZ would be for the NZRL to join the ARLC, i.e. effectively be taken over by the ARLC and NRL. Most people, both Kiwi and Aussie, don't want to hear that though.

 

[flippikat]

You'd want that talent in the NZ competition, not in NSW and Qld where it's not needed.

2 or 3 NRL clubs plus a NZ competition effectively acting as another second tier would be the way to go.

It would probably be best to start the NZ competition long before you plan to add more NZ teams to the NRL, that would give the NZ comp time to build a following without being totally overshadowed by the shiny new NRL teams.
The structure of the broadcasting deals would be super important as well, you'd need to organise them in a way that promotes the NZ comp over the NRL, otherwise the NZ comp will probably struggle for attention, and even then you'd still need a heavy focus on how you market and brand the NZ comp to draw attention away from the NRL.

But again an national competition in NZ will never happen.

Good points.. and in reflection, I agree with your idea of having the reserve grade teams for NZ NRL clubs (assuming eventually we have 2 or 3 NRL clubs) play in a NZ competition.

The key then would be bringing a NZ domestic league UP to the level of NSW or Qld Cup. We'd probably need about a dozen clubs for a home and away season running at the same time as NRL, ideally spread through the country (including some in places like Dunedin or Hawkes Bay that have RU talent & a storied history in Rugby, but little history of RL success).. plus funding... plus decent media profile.

If that happens, you could schedule the State Championship (NSW Cup v Qld Cup winner) on the week before Grand Final, then State Champions v NZ Champions on Grand Final day.

It's ambitious, and probably more than a bit far-fetched.. but dreams are free hehehe.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

The QRL, NZRL and PNGRFL should create their own competiton. It could become almost as big as the NRL.

6 QLD clubs
4 NZ clubs
4 PNG clubs.

 

[Perth Red]

I've thought for a while that the best outcome for RL in NZ would be for the NZRL to join the ARLC, i.e. effectively be taken over by the ARLC and NRL. Most people, both Kiwi and Aussie, don't want to hear that though.

i don’t think they need to, or should, take them over. They should have a seat at the commission though so the two countries work much closer and the nrl feel their investment is being well used.

 

[The Great Dane]

i don’t think they need to, or should, take them over. They should have a seat at the commission though so the two countries work much closer and the nrl feel their investment is being well used.

But to get a seat on the commission they'd effectively need to be taken over, so it's the same difference really.

 

[Perth Red]

But to get a seat on the commission they'd effectively need to be taken over, so it's the same difference really.

no it isn’t, nswrl and qrl have not been not taken over by the nrl. What it does is gives nzrl direct dialect and some level of lobbying power, and gives arlc a closer relationship and say in where the funding goes. Making NZ as strong as possible is a win-win for the game in both countries.

 

[edabomb]

A diehard Kiwi league fan mate of mine suggests that Christchurch, not Wellington is the clear place RL should expand to next. He cites the North / South Island rivalry and the amount of ''Rugby'' talent in Christchurch as the reason.

Also, I love that the NZ pathways are being looked at as a whole at the moment.

A strongly rugby union city though. I imagine it would be like AFL going into Sydney and Brisbane, years of pumping money into a team to find a niche market. The problem being that a niche market in Christchurch is not really that lucrative.

Wellington was the obvious choice 10-15 years ago. Living here I'm not sure that's the case anymore. 15 years ago we had a stadium the city loved, which has completely flipped in recent times. Super and domestic rugby crowds here have taken a nosedive. We do have a fair rugby league community here.

The Hamilton/Rotorua idea is an interesting one.

 

[The Great Dane]

Good points.. and in reflection, I agree with your idea of having the reserve grade teams for NZ NRL clubs (assuming eventually we have 2 or 3 NRL clubs) play in a NZ competition.

The key then would be bringing a NZ domestic league UP to the level of NSW or Qld Cup. We'd probably need about a dozen clubs for a home and away season running at the same time as NRL, ideally spread through the country (including some in places like Dunedin or Hawkes Bay that have RU talent & a storied history in Rugby, but little history of RL success).. plus funding... plus decent media profile.

If that happens, you could schedule the State Championship (NSW Cup v Qld Cup winner) on the week before Grand Final, then State Champions v NZ Champions on Grand Final day.

It's ambitious, and probably more than a bit far-fetched.. but dreams are free hehehe.

A dozen clubs would be going way too big too quickly, you'd just be repeating one of the big mistakes that was made when the Lion Red Cup and Bartercard Cup were set up.
You'd be better to start with a smaller number like 6-8 max. Not only would that be more financially manageable, but you'd be able to build teams of a higher standard instead of spreading the talent too thin, and the more competitive the competition is the better.

I wouldn't rule out working with the Australian NRL clubs either. If any of them are ready and willing to work out development deals that are mutually beneficial for both parties then that could only be a good thing.

Making a state champions vs NZ champions game would probably be a bad idea in the early days as well. You'd effectively be making sure that the "real" GF is never played on home soil where you control the event and your fans can easily attend it, and by allowing that you'd be seriously risking devaluing your GF as an event.

If I'm honest I wouldn't want to be rushing into games against NSW Cup and QLD Cup teams at all, not initially at least. There's scope there for profitable events, but in the early days losing games to NSW Cup and QLD Cup sides might discredit the quality of the competition, which would be a disaster. Wait until you've built a strong following with a few strong teams, then look into that sort of thing.

 

[The Great Dane]

no it isn’t, nswrl and qrl have not been not taken over by the nrl. What it does is gives nzrl direct dialect and some level of lobbying power, and gives arlc a closer relationship and say in where the funding goes.

Yeah and the NRL not effectively taking over the NSWRL and QRL was a massive mistake as well.
They just created two self interested lobby groups with more power and influence than they should have, whom they are almost totally incapable of controlling.
Creating a third uncontrollable money sink with an inflated sense of self importance would be a mistake, especially when the organisation that we are talking about has a long history of incompetence that puts all your average RL incompetence to shame.

There's also the question of if the NZRL (the organisation it's self) really deserves any great power in the relationship, and I'd argue no they don't given their track record, and that the ARLC and NRL taking a broom through them would be one of the major benefits of them being taken over.

There'd also certainly be all sorts of government issues in NZ if the NZRL was to join the ARLC, but I'm not qualified to talk about that stuff.

Making NZ as strong as possible is a win-win for the game in both countries.

That's the same thing that SANZAAR said, and how has that turned out for Australian RU?

There's a right and a wrong way to go about it, and giving them all the benefits without really strong oversight and responsibility (in this case basically taking them over in a benevolent dictatorship) would be the wrong way to go about it.

It's all academic anyway because every time something similar has been brought up in the past the NZRL and most Kiwi pundits have taken the idea as an insult.