What are you watching?

[mackdadday]

Not watching anything in particular but enjoying a lot of Something to Wrestle With and 83 weeks podcast clips on youtube.

 

[Marshall_magic]

IV would have been such a strange show to experience live. I'd imagine going in it would have been hotly anticipated since it was coming off the back of the Hogan/Andre rematch which drew a monster rating and sent shockwaves through the promotion. I could only imagine the disappointment after Hogan/Andre where you had three really anti-climatic results. First Steamboat is eliminated in the first round denying the fans of a Steamboat-Savage rematch, then Rude/Roberts stall for 15 minutes before Hogan and Andre are both eliminated through some typical shenanigans. Outside of the tournament the only real distraction is the WWF Tag Title match which was a solid piece of business. Savage winning the championship would have salvaged the show, even if the win was marred somewhat by Hogan's interference. It reminded me a lot of Wrestlemania XXVII which was just a lead into Wrestlemania XXVIII with the main takeaways being Taker fluking a win against HHH and The Rock coming to blows with John Cena.

IX would have to have been the worst card. Bret was a solid champion but lacked the star power of all those who came before him and he was in the ring with this virtual unknown in Yokozuna. I could only imagine the reaction to not only seeing Hart do the job but watching Hogan come out on top again. It would have been like Goldberg beating The Fiend but on steroids (or maybe not due to wellness). I really wanted to like the show because I liked the Caeser Palace theme and thought a lot of the guys worked hard but the booking just killed the show. There were only two matches with clean finishes - Razor/Backlund and Steiners/Headshrinkers. The latter is a solid tag team match but the former maybe the worst match in Wrestlemania history and it didn't even last 4 minutes.

XI just came around at a weird time for the company. The WWF had yet to find their Hogan, so the card felt extremely weak and outside of LT-Bam Bam all the marquee matches under-delivered. Bret-Backlund maybe the worst match in Bret's career and Diesel just seemed out of his element against Shawn. It was the least remarkable Wrestlemania at that stage and as cheesy as Hogan winning the title was, at least he was still a star that fans cared about.

Problem with 4 was we were hit over the head multiple times with Dibiase and Savage prior to the main event, by the time we got there we just didn't need to see them again. The tournament was a good idea on paper but in reality it should just be the semis and final on the same show.

9 was a weird state of flux. The world started to get sick of Hulkamania but Vince still thought it was a thing. If he wouldn't put over the next star then the main event really should have been Savage and Bret. Curious to know if it was poorly received at the time, or if over time the appreciation of the even had just tanked.

The problem with 11 was the roster was just not very good. The promotion decided to bank on celebrity however the wrestling boom was over, meaning they quality of star willing to show up was pretty poor too. That said I'll always respect Bam Bam for getting a match out of LT which was far better than it had any right to be.

 

[shiznit]

I just watched one night only from 1997 which was one of the last WWF shows from the 90’s that I had never watched before. For those that don’t know this was the first of the UK PPVs that were a staple of the 97 – 02 period in the WWF.

Every other UK PPV from that period that I have seen has been ordinary at best so I went into this show with low expectations. I have to say though that I was pleasantly surprised the show was well worth the price of admission. It’s important to note that I watched the show in context i.e. I was familiar with the storylines of the time (September 1997) as I had watched the RAWs leading up to the show.

The PPV started off with HHH against Dude Love which turned out to be the 2nd to last match of a 4 month feud between the two (Mankind as opposed to dude love in most of the matches). This was a great opener and 2nd best match of their feud IMO with the best being the cage match at summerslam earlier in the year.

Leif Cassidy (Al Snow) vs Tiger Ali Singh was next which was just filler and a dud

Next comes what is in my opinion the best match of the headbangers career when they defended their titles against Savio Vega and Miguel Perez

Another filler match followed with LOD defeating the Godwinns

Next came a surprisingly good match between Owen Hart and Vader. Being in the UK and keeping in mind the Hart Foundation vs USA feud at the time Owen played the face and was mega over. It was surreal seeing him as a face as the vast majority of his career was as a heel. Anyways, he played the role perfectly and this was a fun big man vs little man match with the little man almost pulling out the victory. IMO this is the 2nd best match of Vader’s WWF career behind his match against Shawn at summerslam 96

Bret Hart defended against the Undertaker in the next match and in my opinion it was the best match they ever had bettering both the Royal Rumble 96 match and their summerslam 97 match. Both wrestlers gave a lesson in psychology and it was clearly a MOTY candidate although clearly outdone by both Bret/Austin at mania and HBK/Undertaker in HIAC.

The main event was HBK defeating the British Bulldog for the European Championship in an infamous match. This was a complete shock for most people especially the crowd as it was thought that the bulldog would never drop that title in the UK. I have heard that he was told that there would be a bigger pay off match in Manchester down the road where HBK would return the favour which obviously never happened. As it was the bulldog was completely destroyed by DX at the end and the Hart foundation did not come to his rescue. In Hindsight this is the first real lead up to the Montreal Screw job as the Hart foundation had been dominant in 97 until this point and were made to look extremely weak on this occasion. The match itself though was great at around the 4 star mark bettered only by the previous match on the night.

If you haven’t seen this show I recommend you do, great wrestling from top to bottom with two 4 star plus matches and three other 3 plus star matches. As a show it was the 2nd best PPV in 97 including WCW shows behind only Canadian Stampede in July IMO.

Summerslam 97 had one of my favourite finishes.

That finish with Brett spitting in HBK’s face and then ducking the return chairshot and knocking out the undertaker and then the reluctant 3 count with a long pause before the 3rd count was perfection.

from all 3 guys it was perfect.

as much as Brett and HBK hated each other... they were magic when they worked together.

 

[Valheru]

Survivor series 96

What a wonderful highlight in what was mostly a dour year for WWF. If anyone is looking for a starting point where vince gave a shit again and started to turn things around, this is as good as any.

The show opened with a good traditional survivor series match between furnass, lafonne and the Godwins vs bulldog, Owen and the new rockers. Once it got down to owen/bulldog and furnass/lafonne we saw a very good tag match with the latter winning setting up their feud for the tag titles.

Next was the payoff match in the original undertaker/mankind feud with Paul bearer suspended above the ring. This was the debut of vampire taker which was his biggest character development in 6 years. He became more human like and was able to do actual wrestling moves in the ring. This was a typical Foley brawl in the 3 star range.

Bret and Austin also had their first matchin their famous feud, this was Bret's first match since mania 12. This was a technical masterclass and elevated Austin to the main event. He hung with bret every step of the way Nd lost in almost fluke fashion. 4.5 stars.

Main event was HBK V Sid with the rabid NYC crowd firmly behind Sid. HBK gave his typical 96 main event performance and somehow got a 4 star match put of Sid. The pop for sid winning was thunderous.

There were 2 other filler matches, nothing bad but nothing great.

All in all a great PPV that really set the tone for 1997.

 

[Big Pete]

In the process of compiling the best matches in SmackDown history, does anyone have any recommendations?

Here's a few matches I'm considering

Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho vs. Edge & Christian vs. The Dudley Boyz vs. The Hardy Boyz (Tables, Ladders and Chairs)

Stone Cold Steve Austin vs. Chris Benoit

Brock Lesnar vs. Kurt Angle (Iron Man)

Brock Lesnar vs. Chris Benoit (Debut of the Brock Lock)

Eddie Guerrero vs. John Bradshaw Layfield (Steel Cage)

Rey Mysterio vs. Brock Lesnar

 

[Valheru]

In the process of compiling the best matches in SmackDown history, does anyone have any recommendations?

Here's a few matches I'm considering

Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho vs. Edge & Christian vs. The Dudley Boyz vs. The Hardy Boyz (Tables, Ladders and Chairs)

Stone Cold Steve Austin vs. Chris Benoit

Brock Lesnar vs. Kurt Angle (Iron Man)

Brock Lesnar vs. Chris Benoit (Debut of the Brock Lock)

Eddie Guerrero vs. John Bradshaw Layfield (Steel Cage)

Rey Mysterio vs. Brock Lesnar

CM Punk was on fire on Smackdown circa 09/10.

There was one against Rey Mysterio but can't remember exactly which year/month that would be well worth checking out.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

On the topic of What are we watching.

Halfway through Survivor Series 96, cause its free at the moment on the network.

Some of those teams..

Bulldog, Owen, and the new rockers (Marty Janetty and AL SNOW) against Furnas, LaFon and the Godwins

Team Triple H was Hunter Hurst-Helmsley, Goldust, Jerry the King Lawler and Crush. They faced Marc Mero, Barry Windham (as The Stalker), a debuting Rocky Maivia and Jake the Snake Roberts

Fake Diesel, Fake Razor, Faarooq, and Vader (theres a team for ya) against get this... Flash Funk, Savio Vega, Yokozuna and...Jimmy Snuka.

Certainly has a much different feel than the generic Raw Vs Smackdown teams.

Among these, there were some pretty decent matches, Undertaker Vs Mankind (with Paul Bearer in a shark tank above the ring), Stone Cold and Bret Hart and HBK vs Sid.

 

[Marshall_magic]

In the process of compiling the best matches in SmackDown history, does anyone have any recommendations?

Here's a few matches I'm considering

Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho vs. Edge & Christian vs. The Dudley Boyz vs. The Hardy Boyz (Tables, Ladders and Chairs)

Stone Cold Steve Austin vs. Chris Benoit

Brock Lesnar vs. Kurt Angle (Iron Man)

Brock Lesnar vs. Chris Benoit (Debut of the Brock Lock)

Eddie Guerrero vs. John Bradshaw Layfield (Steel Cage)

Rey Mysterio vs. Brock Lesnar

A couple from recent years
Randy vs AJ (no one contenders match for Brays wwe title at mania 33)

AJ vs Bryan wwe title match 2018

 

[Big Pete]

Looking forward to watching those matches, keep me posted if anything else comes to mind.

I'm currently going down the SmackDown Six rabbit hole. I've started watching every episode from post-Vengeance 02 to No Way Out 03. That gives me Rey's debut, Eddie and Benoit defecting to SmackDown and goes all the way to Edge's injury.

Originally I was just going to go from post-SummerSlam since that's when it starts picking up but thought better of it. It's actually really refreshing to go back and watch these shows. I didn't have Fox 8 at the time, so I barely saw any of these eps (Rey's debut was the last SD episode I remember watching in real time) and by the time we got it, Fox lost the rights to SmackDown and all the PPVs.

The matches hold up really well. Fans still talk up Edge/Eddie as they should since it was a great blow-off but the Rey/Angle/Benoit triple threat was a lot of fun as well.

 

[Valheru]

Giving 1998 a re-watch at the moment for both major promotions including Thunder which I had never seen before (what a punish that is).

Anyways just watched Wrestlemania 14 for the first time in years and what a fantastic wrestling show that was. WWF was really starting to catch fire again post Montreal and as we all know exploded post wrestlemania with Ausint/McMahon/Undertaker/Foley/Kane carrying the main event for the remainder of the year and the new look DX and NOD carrying the upper mid card.

The show was one of the better pay off shows you will ever see. They didn't quite have the talent at this point for it to be an end to end wrestling classic like they did in 2000 and beyond but it was thoroughly entertaining none the less.

The crowd was mental throughout and the workers fed off that energy. Say what you want about HBK as a person at that point in time but my god his performance in that main event was one for the ages. His back flared up bad in the first 5 minutes and he could barely walk and bend down beyond that point. He went 15 more minutes in a 4 star match featuring a mat based repertoire which he rarely showed before or since and put Steve Austin over big time.

RAW the next night was brilliant as well. You had Steve Austin choosing to do things the "hard way" with Vince and then getting arrested. There was the evolution of DX with X-Pac returning (whilst cutting the promo of his life) and the outlaws also joining and then you also had the rock finally taking the leadership of the NOD and kicking Farooq out of the group.

They hadn't quite closed the gap in the ratings at this point but they were riding a wave of popularity that would see WCW on its knees within 12 months.

 

[Big Pete]

Wrestlemania XIV set the standard for what a Wrestlemania should be. Every match had a purpose, it was a very diverse card from top to bottom and it ended with a huge moment. Say what you will about Wrestlemania X-7 but the build up to XIV was unreal.

 

[Valheru]

Wrestlemania XIV set the standard for what a Wrestlemania should be. Every match had a purpose, it was a very diverse card from top to bottom and it ended with a huge moment. Say what you will about Wrestlemania X-7 but the build up to XIV was unreal.

Yeah X-7 was a better show purely because they had a superior roster at that point. XIV was the better pay off though and the build was phenomenal.

The only thing that didn't pay off IMO was the IC title. I feel like Shamrock should have won that due to a botched Farooq interference leading to him being kicked out of the NOD the next night. Rocky was the right person to carry that belt forward and the eventual pay off against HHH at summerslam was an all time classic but he could easily have won the belt back at Unforgiven.

 

[Valheru]

In follow up to my post on 1998 where WWF was putting on entertaining shows without quite having the talent for end to end wrestling classics, there is the other side of the coin that is WCW 1998 whom did possess the talent but failed to push them in any meaningful way.

I always remember WCW 1998 as being fairly good but it must be the 2nd half of the year because up until end of April 1998 it has been a bit of a chore. The seeds for the complete capitulation that the company would experience in the following 3 years have been sowed with the good workers becoming disenfranchised and the main event becoming stale to say the least and it has finally started to show in the head to head ratings.

Everyone knows what happened at Starrcade 1997 where Bret Hart reversed a quick 3 count that wasn't quick. The title was then held up with through Souled out (which was actually a very good show) with a rematch booked for Superbowl where Scott Hall was originally booked to get his title shot owed to him from his WW3 victory. Despite it being obvious, the company persisted with the narrative that the count at Starrcade was quick and was going to show exclusive footage proving it on the debut Thunder episode. Apparently they actually taped a re-enactment of the match between Sting/Hogan at some house show with an actual quick count and that would be the footage they would use but when the day came they used the original PPV footage and still had the commentators pretend the count was quick. This makes no sense at all until you realise Hogan has the biggest ego by far of any professional wrestler in history.

It must be noted that hogan had it written in his contract that he books his own programs so he had every right (legally) to not put anyone over if he chose not to. Hogan was originally scheduled to win the rematch but decided he would allow Sting to win and book himself in the top program with Savage as part of the NWO breakup angle thereafter to show the top brass that Sting (or anyone else) would be a failure compared to himself as champion. His payback for "putting Sting over" was to completely and utterly dominate 99% of the match to the point that Sting looked like a complete schmuck. Sting hit the scorpion death drop as part of his comeback but even then Hogan booked a savage interference so he wouldn't have to put the move over.

Post Superbrawl the top program was clearly the NWO breakup with Hogan and Savage as the key issue whilst Sting moved on to Scott Hall which was booked to look like a run of the mill mid card feud. At Uncensored, the cage match between Hogand/Savage was the main event and was probably even worse than the effort of Hogan/Piper at Halloween Havoc 5 months prior. The title match was the semi main and given about 8 minutes which was fairly entertaining with Hall bumping for Sting but it felt like an afterthought.

So then we head in to late March/April where things get really interesting in terms of backstage turmoil and the booking. For those that don't know the major back stage factions in WCW were Hogans crew, Nash's crew and then Flair's crew. Scott Hall entered rehab almost immediately after Uncensored and wouldn't be seen for a few months (we all know how that story ends) and Syxx is at home recuperating from an injury and is fired by Eric Bischoff via letter who then signs a deal almost immediately with the WWF. This pisses off Nash no end who asks for a release which for obvious reasons is not granted, however to placate him they book him on the side of savage int he NWO angle and promise him he will headline against Hogan down the track.

So, following Uncensored Savage is declared the number 1 contender and continues his feud with Hogan whilst Nash chooses his side. Nash himself is booked in two title matches against Sting on TV where in the first one he is screwed out of the title by Hogan and in the 2nd one Savage interferes to his benefit however Bret hart (still playing off Montreal) makes the save for Sting after earlier int he night saying that he would be there for Sting should he ever need the help. The night of the PPV comes where Savage (despite the fact his knee requires surgery) wins the title after ludicrous amounts of interference with not so much as a peep from Bret hart. The next night on nitro Hogan predictably demands a title shot which is granted and what do they do? They destroy the biggest money potential feud they have by having Bret Hart interfere to help Hogan win the title... because reasons... The reason of course being Hogan's ego.

Hopefully that gives some insight in to the state of the booking int he first half of 1998 in WCW and it would only get worse.

 

[Big Pete]

What's clear is how unprepared WCW was for it's new schedule. Not only did Nitro get bumped up to three hours, but they had Thunder launch as another three hour show on top of Saturday Night, Worldwide and Pro. That's a lot of television and since WCW loved to tell long form stories they just couldn't keep up with the demands in content.

It comes to a head later on in the year where a lot of talent gets injured. Thunder mercifully gets cut down to two hours but then you've got talent like Chris Benoit, Booker T, Rey Mysterio, Buff Bagwell, Ultimo Dragon, Scott Steiner etc. all missing with serious injury. It basically forces WCW to start pushing guys like Stevie Ray, Horace Hogan, Konnan, Wrath, Saturn, Ernest Miller etc. and they just weren't on the level.

It's also a period where they went crazy with the stunt casting. It was one thing to get Karl Malone and Dennis Rodman at Bash at the Beach (which drew an impressive buyrate) it's another to bring in Leno. Road Wild actually drew a solid figure as well, but for a lot of fans it's where WCW jumped the shark and the follow-up shows (Fall Brawl, Halloween Havoc) drew horrendous numbers.

Bischoff viewed Halloween Havoc as WCW's Wrestlemania. Yes, Starrcade had the history but the Snickers and MGM Grand deal meant more to Bischoff which is why the card is stacked. So many matches with big builds and the show just tanked. Then to add insult to injury, they had to refund the majority of their customers because they didn't time the show out correctly and Goldberg/Page got cut from the live feed. It did lead to one of their last head to head victories over the WWF since the match got replayed on Nitro but the ratings bump wasn't worth it.

I actually find myself preferring a lot of the 1999 product over 1998, largely because there's more Benoit and Mysterio on the show. It felt like I was watching a prototypical version of the SmackDown Six in Benoit/Malenko/Rey/Kidman/Raven/Saturn. Throw in Kanyon/Bam Bam/DDP and you've got a fun mix.

 

[Valheru]

I actually find myself preferring a lot of the 1999 product over 1998, largely because there's more Benoit and Mysterio on the show. It felt like I was watching a prototypical version of the SmackDown Six in Benoit/Malenko/Rey/Kidman/Raven/Saturn. Throw in Kanyon/Bam Bam/DDP and you've got a fun mix.

Yep, 1999 is always pinpointed as the year things really went down the shitter for WCW as that is when the WWF started demolishing them int he ratings. However, I would argue that the March 1999 - June 1999 period was more entertaining than anything in 1998. Of course post June Hogan, Savage and Sid all returned to stink the joint up again. From there they hired Russo in October and the rest is history.

I would also argue that post October 2000 up until the demise of the company in march 2001, they had a decent product which people wanted to watch. However the horse had bolted by then and once the ratings tanked in 1999 Time Warner didn't want any part of wrestling on their television.

 

[Scott Gourley's Lovechild]

MLW - The Restart. Great show top to bottom. These guys are the one show I look forward to watching every week.

 

[bileduct]

I've been going through some of the old material from the territories on the WWE Network... Was watching AWA and came across an in-ring promo involving Scott Hall and Curt Hennig. I never really paid much attention to Scott because I didn't watch WCW at the time, and the WWF from 91-96 was pretty cringe, but was genuinely surprised at the dude's size in 86. He was massive standing next to Curt Hennig.

I don't know if it's because most of the time I saw him standing next to Kevin Nash or whatever, but I never realised the guy was huge.

 

[Valheru]

I've been going through some of the old material from the territories on the WWE Network... Was watching AWA and came across an in-ring promo involving Scott Hall and Curt Hennig. I never really paid much attention to Scott because I didn't watch WCW at the time, and the WWF from 91-96 was pretty cringe, but was genuinely surprised at the dude's size in 86. He was massive standing next to Curt Hennig.

I don't know if it's because most of the time I saw him standing next to Kevin Nash or whatever, but I never realised the guy was huge.

Yeah Hall was a legit 6'7. That is the same alleged height as Hogan but Hall looks taller to me and I've read Hogan was 6'6' and closer to 6'4 these days.

Whilst you are checking out the territories, be sure to check out WCCW circa 1983, it was truly revolutionary stuff.

 

[Styles clash]

Started WCW with the first Nitro Sep 4th 1995 intending to watch all the Nitros, PPVs and Thunders until the end in 2001. Got to October and had to stop... Probably skip ahead to Scott Hall's 1996 debut where it apparently got good when I eventually try again. WWF Superstars in 1999 on Channel 10 made boy me a WWF wrestling fan. Missed all of WCW outside the very occasional video rental or butchered Nitro on Channel 9.

Would like to do all the WrestleManias and Royal Rumbles in order. After I move and have a more reliable internet connection I'll give it a real shot. Maybe throw in February PPVs for a fuller "Road to" experience.

Content to not watch 2020 WWE and AEW. WWE for all the reasons people have quit WWE. AEW because its inconsistent and I'm not willing to give up 90-120 minutes every week for inconsistent. At 33-years-old I'm done with that. Dynamite is 63 episodes in.

 

[Big Pete]

Started WCW with the first Nitro Sep 4th 1995 intending to watch all the Nitros, PPVs and Thunders until the end in 2001. Got to October and had to stop... Probably skip ahead to Scott Hall's 1996 debut where it actually got good when I eventually try again. WWF Superstars in 1999 on Channel 10 made boy me a WWF wrestling fan and I missed all of WCW outside the very occasional video rental or butchered Nitro on Channel 9.

Would like to do all the WrestleManias and Royal Rumbles in order. Give that a go when I move and have a more reliable internet connection.

That period of WCW is difficult to follow since a lot of feuds didn't take place on Nitro. Saturday Night and Worldwide were still essential to track what was happening on PPVs.

Good luck with the project. Personally I find with the bigger projects it's easier to just follow one subject across multiple shows or just checking out interesting match-ups than sitting through hours upon hours of television hoping something will pop up. I would only recommend that approach if you want some background noise.