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League in the USA

Kurt Angle

First Grade
Messages
9,650
Woods99 said:
Surely it is worth asking the question? After all, rugby union is roughly 100 times the size of league in the US.

American football is 10000 times bigger than RU in the US, and the NRL has forged a partnership with them.

Why deal with a second rate contender when we can go right to the holy grail.

You RU types keep thinking your a bench mark for us to follow, but you woods, individually, are an example RL produces a better class of people, and RU should be avoided.

There might be lessons to be learned from its success.

RU is fully of lies and hypocritical statements. If that is a measure of success, then I don't want RL to have any part of it.

I understand that quite a few rugby union types played for the Tomahawks against the Not-North-Melbourne Kangaroos in the game that was going to galvanise the American people.

True or false?

Many exhibition games are for this purpose, much like the laughable ru7's circuit.
 

Paley

Juniors
Messages
1,619
Play some footy said:
Times have changed my friend - most league players are now playing union in the off season to stay fit (that is, if you can gain fitness from watching paint dry).

When the summer conference started in the UK a lot of the players were union players taking up rugby for the first time but that situation is gradually changing as many of those union players now prefer rugby and see it as their main sport.

A similar situation is happening in the british universities and colleges where many students prefer to play rugby rather than union despite coming from a union background - this is often because of their reluctance to partake of the initiation rituals and silly behaviour student union requires but as they get to grips with rugby they come to prefer it over union.
 

ParraEelsNRL

Referee
Messages
27,694
Good stuff roopy, keep the thread open "as long as possible".

I thought and posted about moving it to TFC, but it could do better here.;-)

Maybe we could sticky this thread as a complete thread (as in trolling and all) and use it to show up the lies and deceit.

More people may see it here, esp Americans who want to play Rugby League, and other 13ers around the world who pop in from time to time.

League in the USA, it's on the move.

All the trolls can either have fun with us, or watch something else.:b::thumb
 

Play some footy

Juniors
Messages
238
Go Eagles -

You don't legitimately think Union is filled with tougher and more fit athletes then League?

Union has been around the states for a number of years now and besides from college programs filled with kids who couldn't hack it in gird iron and establishing adult teams who need a reason to get out of the house - what has it accomplished? It has not set up any youth programs or been able to compensate players financially during this time? There are high school teams that play something that resembles "follow the guy with the ball" which when there senses come to - start playing League anyway.

League plays close to the same amount of Internationals as Union in the US - and actually has to qualify for a World Cup instead of receiving an automatic bid like the lackluster Eagles will in France this coming year.

Besides - how many of the Eagles were actually born in the States?
 

goeagles

Juniors
Messages
62
You don't legitimately think Union is filled with tougher and more fit athletes then League?

I do.

Union has been around the states for a number of years now and besides from college programs filled with kids who couldn't hack it in gird iron and establishing adult teams who need a reason to get out of the house - what has it accomplished?

It grows year after year, and the high school growth over the past few years has been tremendous. Every year, rugby at colleges becomes more "high performance" oriented and less of "just an excuse to party".

There are high school teams that play something that resembles "follow the guy with the ball" which when there senses come to - start playing League anyway.

Where is that? The level of play on the West Coast is pretty high.

It has not set up any youth programs or been able to compensate players financially during this time?

Wrong again. Superleague is semi-pro and plenty of youth programs have been set up.

League plays close to the same amount of Internationals as Union in the US - and actually has to qualify for a World Cup instead of receiving an automatic bid like the lackluster Eagles will in France this coming year.

More incorrect info. What's this automatic bid stuff? I'll be attending the US-Uruguay RWC qualifying match in Palo Alto early next month. :)

Besides - how many of the Eagles were actually born in the States?

First choice Eagles squad at the moment:

1 Macdonald- yup
2 Wyatt- yup
3 Tarpoff- yup
4 Mangan- yup
5 Stanfill- yup
6 Clever- yup
7 Petruzella- yup
8 Schubert- yup
9 Meek- yup
10 Hercus- yup
11 Hullinger- yup
12 Tuipulotu- yup
13 Emerick- yup
14 Palefau- yup
15 Viljoen- yup

The only ones that you could even marginally dispute are Viljoen and Hercus, but your question was which ones were born here, not born and raised.
 
Messages
42,632
goeagles said:

:lol:

You should be banished for TFC for just being that stupid.

woodsy's big sister said:
Wrong again. Superleague is semi-pro and plenty of youth programs have been set up.

I suppose you can prove both those statements?

I mean, other than your word, which is worth about 0 here.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
goeagles,
Firstly, the 'trying to hold back the inevitable' interpretation of the King Canute parable may not be true to the original fable, but that context was used repeatedly by Winston Churchill and many others in speeches, and if it is good enough for one of the greatest minds of the 20th century to use it in that way, it is good enough for me (and too good for you).

Secondly - again you try to portray Union in the US as a healthy, vibrant sport, while attempting to minimise the efforts of League to establish itself.
I went to watch the Eagles play Japan in the Union WC match at Gosford on the NSW central coast and I have seen the Tomahawks play live on three ocassions - and quite honestly my local second division league and union sides would be fair competition for both.
League is currently a small sport, but seriously, if Union has these massive numbers, junior development programmes, serious athletes etc etc - why did they play like busted arses at Gosford in the Union WC?
 

Play some footy

Juniors
Messages
238
Super League Union is not semi pro in the states. You must be joking. The only guys that get paid in the league (if any) are internationals brought over. Besides, some of the better Div 1 teams could easily handle some of the teams in that comp.

Second - where are there union youth programs set up? Show me a link or something because that is the first i've heard of that.

Third - again, high school and college union programs are set up for athletes not good enough to play grid iron. Take your starting 15 Eagles side and let me know who could have played Div 1 football.
 

spinnerhowland

Juniors
Messages
788
Not trying to fuel the argument but here are some quotes from the Axemen players during and after their first league season.
#1 I have never been hit that hard in a tackle before
#2 I thought I was fit. I came straight off the Union Spring season and I am the most unfit guy here.
#3 Remembering all the play sets and the patterns means I actually have to think
#4 There are no big fat old guys playing league.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
goeagles said:
Roopy,

We beat Japan in Gosford, idiot.
You certainly did.
I went to watch a final of a country second division Union comp last week - and it was a better game than USA v Japan.
My point is - you claim Union has all these players and all this growth - but my eyes tell me your best players arn't very good - so, bottom line, your sport is not delivering much.
 

goeagles

Juniors
Messages
62
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Super League Union is not semi pro in the states. You must be joking. The only guys that get paid in the league (if any) are internationals brought over. Besides, some of the better Div 1 teams could easily handle some of the teams in that comp.

It is. Plane tickets paid for, expenses paid for, and many get a stipend. That is semi-pro.

Second - where are there union youth programs set up? Show me a link or something because that is the first i've heard of that.

Have you heard of Playrugbyusa, the organization Mark Griffin set up? Or the highly successful tag rugby organization in New Jersey?

Also depends on what you mean by youth. Do you include high school?

Third - again, high school and college union programs are set up for athletes not good enough to play grid iron. Take your starting 15 Eagles side and let me know who could have played Div 1 football.

Much of the football team played rugby at my high school and the ones who didn't came from football came from basketball or soccer.

Do you remember Jacob Waasdorp? All Pac-10 defensive tackle who was just a shade too short to play in the NFL. Played prop for the Eagles up until Thorburn came in. Carl Hansen played in the NFL. James Lik was a star at Wake Forest. Kort Schubert was an all-city football player in high school and was Athlete of the Year at Cal-Berkeley in 2002. Shaun Paga played D1 football at Cal and had a stint with the Vikings. Brian Surgener played D1 football at Berkeley. Many of these athletes have trouble making the starting XV for the Eagles so it clearly isn't a case of lack of athleticism in the side. The simple problem is that our players come to rugby too late in life to have good instincts. As the average starting age of rugby players in this country continues to drop, the results will soon show.

Spinner,

#1 I have never been hit that hard in a tackle before

So somehow these same rugby union players become monster tacklers when they play rugby league? Strange.

#2 I thought I was fit. I came straight off the Union Spring season and I am the most unfit guy here.

The South is the weakest spot for rugby union in this country. Not a surprise that they wouldn't be the most fit.

#3 Remembering all the play sets and the patterns means I actually have to think

No plays or patterns in rugby union, eh? I think it was Wendell Sailor who said that in league he only had to know 4 plays but in union he had to know close to 200. Still, none of that compares to American football, but I wouldn't be caught dead arguing that the players there have to think more than in either code of rugby.

You certainly did.
I went to watch a final of a country second division Union comp last week - and it was a better game than USA v Japan.
My point is - you claim Union has all these players and all this growth - but my eyes tell me your best players arn't very good - so, bottom line, your sport is not delivering much.

Great, a biased opinion. I saw a second side college rugby game last weekend that was better than an English SL game I saw. Big deal.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
goeagles said:
Great, a biased opinion. I saw a second side college rugby game last weekend that was better than an English SL game I saw. Big deal.
Let's look at some objective facts then - you claim the third or fourth largest number of players in the world - but have never beaten anyone of note. Underachievers? I think so.
 

goeagles

Juniors
Messages
62
We have the 14th most players according the IRB statistics. As I said, our biggest problem is our players coming to the game at a late age. The scrumhalf and flyhalf positions in particular are troublesome for people coming to the game so late. Fortunately, youth rugby is expanding greatly and some quality halfbacks are starting to emerge, such as Mike Petri who will be training with the Super 14 Hurricanes squad next season.
 

Lantana

Juniors
Messages
353
goeagles said:
It is. Plane tickets paid for, expenses paid for, and many get a stipend. That is semi-pro.



Have you heard of Playrugbyusa, the organization Mark Griffin set up? Or the highly successful tag rugby organization in New Jersey?

Also depends on what you mean by youth. Do you include high school?



Much of the football team played rugby at my high school and the ones who didn't came from football came from basketball or soccer.

Do you remember Jacob Waasdorp? All Pac-10 defensive tackle who was just a shade too short to play in the NFL. Played prop for the Eagles up until Thorburn came in. Carl Hansen played in the NFL. James Lik was a star at Wake Forest. Kort Schubert was an all-city football player in high school and was Athlete of the Year at Cal-Berkeley in 2002. Shaun Paga played D1 football at Cal and had a stint with the Vikings. Brian Surgener played D1 football at Berkeley. Many of these athletes have trouble making the starting XV for the Eagles so it clearly isn't a case of lack of athleticism in the side. The simple problem is that our players come to rugby too late in life to have good instincts. As the average starting age of rugby players in this country continues to drop, the results will soon show.

Spinner,



So somehow these same rugby union players become monster tacklers when they play rugby league? Strange.



The South is the weakest spot for rugby union in this country. Not a surprise that they wouldn't be the most fit.



No plays or patterns in rugby union, eh? I think it was Wendell Sailor who said that in league he only had to know 4 plays but in union he had to know close to 200. Still, none of that compares to American football, but I wouldn't be caught dead arguing that the players there have to think more than in either code of rugby.



Great, a biased opinion. I saw a second side college rugby game last weekend that was better than an English SL game I saw. Big deal.

I think he was refering to rules at the breakdown as opposed to the play the ball.

Go Eagles, stop waxing lyrical about your sport on here you tool. It is a game that is fundamentally flawed and the powerbrokers know it.

Tell me the last time a throw in went in straight or a team closed the gap prior to the ball going in? Is there anything funnier than seeing a hookers face when there is a gale force wind blowing? Sorry there is...the referees face, as he has his eyes closed.

Tell me the last time a scrum feed went against the head? You union mongs flog on about a dangerous tackle like Danny Budureses (which was dangerous) yet you get an erect penis everytime 2 tonne of flab slams into each other and calls heave..omg hype at it's ridiculous best.
Why risk a tonne on your neck to win a ball that would go with the feed anyway? All sports have freak accidents but ask any of those Rugby frontrower kids in wheerlchairs if they could have their time back would they advocate the unwritten 'wank' that Union scrums are. Uncontested scrums allowing the backs some time and space is definately the go.

Tell me the last time phase football went longer than 5 phases without an error, kick or stupidly slow recycled ball leading to a 40 metre field goal attempt.

You see Eagles, Rugby has cut it's own throat by going professional.
The players no longer need 15 men on the field because SOME of them are becoming athletic and less are comitting to the breakdown due to the pressures of running Rugby has abandoned the attractive 'rolling maul and pick and drive dribble'. This leads to far fewer 'gaps' in the defensive line. Surely this is going to lead to less men on the field to open the game back up as a spectacle? Maybe 2 less players?

Also professionalism brings with it aggressive 'up and in' League style defences. As if the ball players in Union didn't have it hard enough with the defence 1 yard away from scrimmage when the defence used to slide backwards for the inevitable Lomu or Campese style attack. Maybe this new defensive style will force the powerbrokers to adopt a 5 or maybe 10 metre rule to open the game up aas a spectacle to the paying public.

There are a myriad of rules that the IRB are frantically trying to fix for post 2007. They must be panicing as I am sure alot of what they are trying to implement would have similarities to what the other code has done over the past 100 years.

Go Eagles, don't knock Rugby League too much mate, it is a game of substance and if all bodes well the other code will be catching up soon.

I advise you to have a game of both as I am sure most on here have before shooting your gob off. Objectivity is the key here Eagles.
 

Woods99

Juniors
Messages
908
Lantana, The IRB is not panicking. All stakeholders accept that it is time for a review of the rules, after 10 years of professionalism. .. I have pointed out elsewhere that the most radical changes in rugby union have come about not because of rule changes, but because of coaching changes. Major coaching changes in the last 20 or so years include that forwards are now empowered to run with the ball from all phases. Twenty years ago, forwards did not run with the ball. .. The hooker now throws the ball into the line-out, whereas it used to be commonplace for the blindside winger to throw the ball in. This has freed up another back to take part in set plays from the set piece..... Another major change is the emergence of specialist open-side and blind-side flankers, which has changed the dynamic of the break-down and the contest for possession quite radically. .. The advent of open professionalism has meant that players at the elite levels are far fitter, and stronger, than they were 10 or 20 years ago. This fact, and the coaching changes that I have listed above, mean that the game is now a bit out of kilter, and needs re-calibrating. That is hardly surprising. .. However, where rugby differs from league is that changes to the rules are the province of the IRB. In rugby league, the NRL seems to have the power to change rules at its whim, which is hardly the way to grow an international game. Finally, scrums and lineouts are part of the core of rugby. If you don't understand and appreciate them, you will not enjoy either watching or playing the game. That is your choice. Are all line-out throws perfectly straight? No, but in the interests of the contest the referee will only blow a penalty when the defending side genuinely contests the throw. As for scrums, frankly the dominant eight will win its own put-in, no matter what. The less powerful eight will win its ball, but under pressure. This pressure is the point of the contest...........a ball won under pressure is sometimes of less value than a tight-head conceded........And one final point on the power that the NRL exerts over the rules, and the game.........Do you think that the 10 metres defensive line is workable in developing countries, where the players are not full-time professionals? What about the 40/20 rules, how often does this manouvre get exercised in developing countries? What about the "golden point"? Is that a rugby league rule, or only an NRL rule?
 

screeny

Bench
Messages
3,984
Goeagles,

Wendell sailor said he had to memorise 200 plays?!! Got a source?

I can only speak from my experiences of playing both codes and confirm that I didn't have to think at all in RU but must always be able to think, on the run and fatigued, in RL, making sure I'm in the right position for a play, or a subsequent tackle play whihc is being set up by a combination of players involved in the current ruck.

One of the biggest cross-code gripes I have is that RU 'makes you think more' which it clearly doesn't.

RL's all about precision and execution when talking about 'plays'. There's so much more to it, but playing a set of multiple tackles means you certainly have to be on your toes.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
goeagles said:
We have the 14th most players according the IRB statistics.
So 13 countries are claimed to have more than 40 or 50 thousand players?
Incredible.
 
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