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Dragons back in the F7s

Big Mick

Referee
Messages
26,239
You've got it wrong Mick. Dubopov isn't deluded, he just sees things differently to you. He doesn't push his opinion on others (how can you on the internet lol?), just states his own strongly.

Granted, he swears and carries on, and if your complaint is about that you'd get no argument. It's a fact.

Ok I'll agree with you on the point in that he states it strongly I just disagree with as you say it, the way he presents it and it just annoys me.

Hence why I've acted now the way I have to basically present a mirror image to see how aggressive it is! To show how annoying it is to see.

I've enjoyed this game for years and it annoys me to see someone just carrying on as though he is the only person that has had things go wrong or that he felt wronged.

I just want to enjoy the game and seeing stuff like this just takes away the enjoyment from everyone.

Everyone has hurdles....everyone will not always like the result...but end of the day its a game...and its bigger than one player, one team.
 
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DRAGONZ_RULE

Coach
Messages
16,177
Big Mick,

The thing is that people from the outside are all viewing this as a one-off incident where Dubopov has thrown his toys out of his playpen, and the rest of us are simply blindly backing him to the hilt.

In reality, this is not a one-off .. we have had discussions, both in our Locker Room and also on the Jubilee Avenue forum (a forum accessible to a number of members of the Bluebags team), since mid-last year, once we started feeling that we were being marked harshly in comparison to the established sides, even though we felt that our articles (not just one or two) were generally of a higher standard than those of our opponents.

I was going to quit at the end of last season because I was so upset with some of the marking that had gone on - not specifically for my articles, but for others in the team as well. Dubopov convinced me to stay.

This is not the result of a one-off incident, but rather the result of a festering feeling of discontent. We started this season optimistic that things might change, thinking that our decent showing in our first year would have earned more respect .. but all it took was one week to see that, despite virtually everyone who has now read the thread and spoken about it believing that the Dragons at the least shaded the Titans, we still lost by an average of about 2 marks per piece. Obviously this has all centred on one very public example of where we feel we were treated harshly, but you need to see this as symptomatic of a wider, and much deeper, issue from the point of view of our team. For us, this is not - and has never been - about one article or one referee.

On your last point about enjoying the game, our team has by and large lost the ability to enjoy the game due to the year-long issues we have been experiencing .. being told by others to simply suck it up and deal with whatever the referee gives you would arguably be a fair enough statement if we felt the opposition was getting marked as harshly as we were, but it does not ring true in our opinions. And with no system available for review, we are left feeling that we are being told "You may have written an article deserving 95, but the referee only gave you 59. And your opponent may have written an article deserving 59, but he got awarded 95. The game is about fun, just deal with it!" From the standpoint of most, that is not an environment fostering enjoyment.


Finally, I would just like to say that I am saddened and somewhat upset to see relations soured between some of my team-members and Non_Terminator .. we felt he was the only referee last year who marked our articles fairly (and we said this knowing that we had received higher marks from other referees in different rounds), and he was our unanimous choice for Referee of the Year in voting for the Awards night.

I believe that the reactions from some of my teammates to what was unfortunately a slightly ill-considered post on his part (given the circumstances) earlier in this thread were merely the result of the frustration they felt this evening, and were not meant to hurt him.
 

Big Mick

Referee
Messages
26,239
Thank you Dragonz Rule. That is a balanced view point and very well written.

If that was said like you just said it then, I'd understand.

But I will say this. There are many times that I felt I deserved more. Seasons where I thought every article I wrote deserved more. But like Referee's, it is our personal opinions. And I don't think teammates would every tell you "your article actually did deserve that" instead of "Hey man, you got robbed". I dunno...its just one of those things that sometimes noone can help. Its all a matter of experience.

I hope the Dragons don't go because I genuinely like the team. Just the attitude coming out the last few days left a sour taste, but thankfully you've given some voice of reason to it and provided some insight. So thank you.
 

Jesbass

First Grade
Messages
5,654
Big Mick,

The thing is that people from the outside are all viewing this as a one-off incident where Dubopov has thrown his toys out of his playpen, and the rest of us are simply blindly backing him to the hilt.

In reality, this is not a one-off .. we have had discussions, both in our Locker Room and also on the Jubilee Avenue forum (a forum accessible to a number of members of the Bluebags team), since mid-last year, once we started feeling that we were being marked harshly in comparison to the established sides, even though we felt that our articles (not just one or two) were generally of a higher standard than those of our opponents.

I was going to quit at the end of last season because I was so upset with some of the marking that had gone on - not specifically for my articles, but for others in the team as well. Dubopov convinced me to stay.

This is not the result of a one-off incident, but rather the result of a festering feeling of discontent. We started this season optimistic that things might change, thinking that our decent showing in our first year would have earned more respect .. but all it took was one week to see that, despite virtually everyone who has now read the thread and spoken about it believing that the Dragons at the least shaded the Titans, we still lost by an average of about 2 marks per piece. Obviously this has all centred on one very public example of where we feel we were treated harshly, but you need to see this as symptomatic of a wider, and much deeper, issue from the point of view of our team. For us, this is not - and has never been - about one article or one referee.

On your last point about enjoying the game, our team has by and large lost the ability to enjoy the game due to the year-long issues we have been experiencing .. being told by others to simply suck it up and deal with whatever the referee gives you would arguably be a fair enough statement if we felt the opposition was getting marked as harshly as we were, but it does not ring true in our opinions. And with no system available for review, we are left feeling that we are being told "You may have written an article deserving 95, but the referee only gave you 59. And your opponent may have written an article deserving 59, but he got awarded 95. The game is about fun, just deal with it!" From the standpoint of most, that is not an environment fostering enjoyment.


Finally, I would just like to say that I am saddened and somewhat upset to see relations soured between some of my team-members and Non_Terminator .. we felt he was the only referee last year who marked our articles fairly (and we said this knowing that we had received higher marks from other referees in different rounds), and he was our unanimous choice for Referee of the Year in voting for the Awards night.

I believe that the reactions from some of my teammates to what was unfortunately a slightly ill-considered post on his part (given the circumstances) earlier in this thread were merely the result of the frustration they felt this evening, and were not meant to hurt him.

Hi DRAGONZ_RULE. Thanks once again for your polite, respectful and reasoned post. I said something similar when you posted in the other thread, and I raise it again because it's such a refreshing change from what I've received from your captain.

The part I've put in bold is what I find to be the most interesting part of your post. The reason I find it interesting is because it is in stark contrast to what dubopov has been presenting both in private and in public.

To provide a bit of context, I wasn't involved in Forum Sevens in 2010 outside of playing in the representative season. When I came back at the end of the year, I noticed a number of changes - the most significant of which was a leadership vacuum.

The season had ended, but the representative season almost didn't happen until Willow got it going. There was nothing in place for the awards night. The F7s Boss, for personal reasons (and ones which I fully support him on), had left the competition.

So I stepped up. I worked with NT to organise the remaining awards so that those who had done the hard yards would get their reward in the form of a digital banner.

It was then that I had my first encounter with dubopov. One of the awards that we needed a decision on was the Dragons MVP, and dubopov wanted to award it to himself. We declined this request - it's an unwritten rule (but soon to be a written one) that captains are ineligible for this award. If nothing else, it robs the captain's players of an opportunity to get the award, and it also has the potential to cause disharmony in a team where the players feel taken for granted.

Subsequently, dubopov didn't like that, although we set no precedent with what we did - captains have been nominated before, by their own players, and it's always been deemed a non-captaincy award. He kicked up quite a fuss via PM that spilled over into the forums. Eventually he took a step back and accepted the decision.

I was surprised by his approach, but not overly bothered by it. (As I said, it isn't the first time that had happened.)

Fast forward to this year, and I put my hand up to referee. I wanted referees to be as neutral as possible, which ideally means non-playing referees, so the easiest way to ensure at least one match per round had one was to volunteer to do it myself.

When I marked the first match this year, I was extremely careful to be as neutral as possible. I 'shuffled' the articles into a different order and removed their authorship, then delayed marking for 24 hours in a bid to be as neutral as possible.

When it came to marking, I could only tell the authorship of one Dragons article, and that had absolutely no bearing on the mark I gave it.

Once I posted the results, dubopov sent me a PM. In one fell swoop, he accused me of cheating and corruption, saying that I had deliberately given him a weak personal score. (Note that what he initially brought up was his individual score - not the scores of other teammates or the Titans. That came later.)

The insults carried on as I tried to placate him and explain where I felt his article had weaknesses. I offered to point out the grammatical errors in his article, and there were many. (When I wrote the comments on his article in the match thread, I wanted to encourage rather than discourage, so I referenced the grammatical errors without pointedly noting each one, as I thought that would be too critical. Rather, by referencing them, I hoped that he would look back over his article, notice them, and adjust accordingly next time.)

What I got in return for my offer of assistance was further abuse. He accused me of: lying, cheating, corruption, intentional bias, wanting the Dragons to leave the competition, trying to play God, and, as I later found out, being Hitler.

Hardly the behaviour of a captain, and to be quite frank, I had no idea where this was coming from. A single mark on a single article of his and all of a sudden I was Hitler!

He repeatedly refused my open offer of assistance, and he did so again in the recent thread, suggesting I don't know what good grammar is. Well, that's his opinion, and he's entitled to it, but my magazine editor has previously told me that of all his contributors, I'm one of only two writers whose work he doesn't need to modify in any way - so I'll take his word over that of someone with an axe to grind.

When dubopov announced that the Dragons were leaving, he sent me another PM, suggesting that I should be happy and that I'd "won" because the team was abandoning the competition.

I wonder, in hindsight, if this goes back to the Dragons MVP situation? I honestly don't know. I don't recall ever having any interaction with him outside of that apart from this one match.

It all seems very much like dubopov is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, which I've seen happen with other people, and it's never a pretty thing to witness.

So while I don't doubt your integrity, (and I mean that sincerely), it has been hard to not see this as being a "one referee" thing as I've copped so much abuse from someone who is supposed to be an ambassador for the game - as all captains are. Perhaps the team and the captain are being driven by slightly differing motivations here.

As far as the Dragons go, I want them to stay. (I've never felt otherwise, despite what dubopov appears to have convinced himself.) I think you guys add a flair and a passion to the competition that I for one really enjoy. You've got quality players and, your captain's communication skills notwithstanding, could really give this competition a shake up.

I hope that helps to explain my position on this situation.
 

dubopov

Coach
Messages
14,737
Now I get it .. It's about the MVP thing .. quite frankly, I didn't even recall who was involved in that MVP discussion .. but now that I know it was you Jessbass, things fall into place.
 

Jesbass

First Grade
Messages
5,654
Now I get it .. It's about the MVP thing .. quite frankly, I didn't even recall who was involved in that MVP discussion .. but now that I know it was you Jessbass, things fall into place.

Okay. If you want to twist my words to say the opposite of what I'm saying, that's your prerogative. When you're done knocking down straw men, my offer will still be here, as will a competition for you to compete in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1fHxPY3TJo
 

dubopov

Coach
Messages
14,737
.. twist ??

another matter .. Do you think it's reasonable for the F7 Head to quote segments of a PM in a thread ?? Didn't you malign me for doing this ??
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
108,269
I'm curious dubo, have you left the F7s for good? Or is there a change of mind in the wind?

I only ask because you seemed to have made it clear that you want nothing to do with the F7s, but you're still posting here.

In my day, a man made a clean break and went onto the next challenge. If he didn't make a clean break, then he was usually saying he was still open to further discussion.

So which is it?
 

bgdc

Juniors
Messages
366
I was looking for that hunk Mick and stumbled into this.

Here is a woman's perspective:

It was only a few months ago when the F7's community rallied around Murphyscreek, concerned that he may have been in strife. In my very limited understanding of the internal politicking of F7's, I've often enjoyed the controversies and spats surrounding the competition because it is so "out there" compared to the dramas of real life. Laughable really. My husband one of the worst.

Dragons, the other teams don't hate you guys. I've given you an example of that above and the competition needs you. Just like it needs all its players, warts and all.

Dubopov, you're wrong in my humble opinion on one count. At least one team doesn't agree with you. You didnt beat us. Not on the scoreboard nor in execution, in our opinion, but better luck next time. You're welcome to swear, you don't have to suck it up but if you think you are winning support then you're very wrong.

Where were you when the debate to address the marking issue was at its height? Perhaps another voice would have swayed the majority towards what you seem to want.

Don't like the Boys Club? Well you're welcome over here with the girls, just leave the tantrums at home, please, we have enough real ones to deal with, thank you.
 

Drew-Sta

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
24,567
Those who refuse to use a system cannot change a system.

If you truly enjoy the F7's and believe it a worthwhile concept - indeed, one worth the commotion this is all causing - then quitting will not achieve the desired results you're looking for.

If you honestly believe there is a problem with the reffing, and I think it's fair to say there is always room for improvement in everything we do, then volunteer your time and become a ref. As a ref, invest some time to proposing what you believe is a fair marking guideline and work to have it installed.

The process of involvement will definately assist in giving you deeper appreciation for the difficulties in reffing and provide you with the 'chips' you believe have been stacked against you.

I have never found that withdrawal as a form of protest has ever worked, so if this truly is honest protest for reform of the reffing, I would humbly suggest you reconsider in light of what I've said.

The 'game' is bigger than all of us, but it is built on a unique foundation of our contributions. Yours counts, dubo, so I would earnestly implore you not to deprive us of yours and the Saints teams wonderful and heartfelt articles. We may move on, but the flavour would lack that red and white it currently enjoys.

I, for one, would mourn that.
 

dubopov

Coach
Messages
14,737
thanks drewsta .. i told the people in charge i would be available to Ref every Round .. I hadn't been picked because apparently players reffing was perceived as a problem.. even though virtually every Ref is a current player ..
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
108,269
thanks drewsta .. i told the people in charge i would be available to Ref every Round .. I hadn't been picked because apparently players reffing was perceived as a problem.. even though virtually every Ref is a current player ..
Now now, you're not telling all the truth there dubo - again.

I put up my hand as ref this year too but haven't been picked yet. I have no issues with that and only offered in case the comp was short on ref numbers.

Did you want to be a ref becuase you saw it as some position of power?

Anyway, I thought you quit the F7s. So I'll ask again, yes or no?
 

Titanic

First Grade
Messages
5,906
And I offered last year and re-newed my offer this year but haven't had so much as a nibble yet then again there could well be extentuating circumstances such as there hasn't been a need so far.

Hey Willow... I'll mark yours if you'll mark mine :D
 

dubopov

Coach
Messages
14,737
And I offered last year and re-newed my offer this year but haven't had so much as a nibble yet then again there could well be extentuating circumstances such as there hasn't been a need so far.

Hey Willow... I'll mark yours if you'll mark mine :D

titanic .. you were listed as Ref in Dragons v Souths
 

dubopov

Coach
Messages
14,737
Now now, you're not telling all the truth there dubo - again.

I put up my hand as ref this year too but haven't been picked yet. I have no issues with that and only offered in case the comp was short on ref numbers.

Did you want to be a ref becuase you saw it as some position of power?

Anyway, I thought you quit the F7s. So I'll ask again, yes or no?

All I said was truthful .. try it sometime ..

As far as me posting on F7 goes, I will reply to the sh*t that is being posted on here about our team .. no sh*t posted = no replies ..
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
I think you'll find people don't have any gripes at all with the Dragons F7's team
 
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