European shield 2012-13 details announced

[Der Kaiser]

This will separate the men from the boys and gets a lot of the 'minnow countries' playing more often. A good thing for the game if you ask me.

It can virtually destroy a nation- Look at the Dutch for a good example!

 

[obsulete]

The RLEF should have in place set rules as well as take a close look at things for the Shield. Here are a couple of things to look at that should be in place for me:

1. A Domestic Comp with Match reports, Photos and teamlists from games on the Website-
Germany doesnt have a national Comp. The Website hasnt been updated for months and there is No communication anywhere.

2. A nation should have a Business plan thats been approved on how it will host as well as travel to away games and how this will be funded. The Business plan should not just be looked at by the RLEF but also an independant body who will then say whether a nation is fit or not off the field to compete at such an event.
Germany like most Nations will just fill in a form about the years activities and income and out goings. No real Business plan is done to say how they will go about doing things and how they will pay to make sure the games they have committed to will happen. The RLEF will just read the formular and push ahead without really looking to see if a nation like Germany can afford it or has the off field team (Trainer, Co Trainer, Doc, Physio, Team manager etc) to pull it off in a professional manner.

3. The RLEF must look at not just the National team but the standard of the game in the Nation. Is there the quality for a nation to play in a Comp and not be hammered if they are missing a couple of Heritage players?
Germany is lucky to have some quality heritage players like Jimmy Keinhorst and his brothers. But you take them out of the German team and you are left with domestic players who would struggle to beat- with respect - the Czech Republic, Netherlands etc. Jimmy Keinhorst is likely playing for Leeds U20s in 2012. Possibly he wont be allowed to play for Germany. Kris Keinhorst is getting married in 2012-again possibly not available to play. That will weaken Germany in a big way. Likely replacements will be young Germans with next to no experience of Rugby League. Is it wise to put them up against Serbians, who Germany have never even come close to beating or Italians who will be preparing for the 2013 WC? I dont think so

Firsty let me just say that I am a regular reader of this forum if not a regular poster.

You sound to me as a victim of sour grapes.

I'll qualify this statement by also saying that I am someone who spent a considerable time in a state within Australia which is not a rugby league state, and constantly gets hammered by the other affiliated states. This state is in such a 'state' that the leaders at the time in which I was involved spent a considerable time trying to convince me to not get involved with re-establishing a team that had previously folded due to the percieved lack of support for our great game within that state.

Im happy to tell you that we won the first grade grand final at our first attempt, and since my depature, despite an initial drop, the club has started to more effectively invest in the juniors to ensure its future and hopefully improve its (the state i refer to here) standing within the rugby league community in Australia because those involved are dedicated to the game and its future.

I dont know if your still in Germany, but you have made it clear that you aren't involved with the RLEF side of the game. If you think it is going so wrong then you should either get back involved with the club you started, or start a rival side, to challenge them and their beliefs to show them a better way.

Leaving Germany out of this current Shield is not viable, in my opinion, due to them being the current champs. If their not upto standard then they will drop down some level to 'their standard'. Its not a crime in my eyes.

I dont know about the internal state of affairs within the country but if it is in the shape you claim it is then you need to get back involved with the club you started OR start another and show them the errors in their ways to get internal support for yourself. I dont know the internal politics involved with your mission but I do know that in my own battle I had to spill my own blood on occasions, on the field as well as off it, to prove my worth.

I'm not prepared to get into why I am no longer involved in my mission I set myself, however if you look into it you will see that my beliefs and wants are now a focus of the club in which I was involved and in the short term they are continuing to be successful.

Bitching on here does you no favours and can alienate people like myself who have total respect for people like you who engage countries with no rugby traditions but get sidelined by politics. Politicians only listen to the people with the money behin them. Find it, get it, and sort your shit. I want to see the next post you make telling me how how you are 'now' taking the game forward.

 

[Der Kaiser]

Firstly I am bitter-but only against the RLEF. They should be helping the people like me and Yanto in developing the sport. I have personally spent thousands of Euros out of my own pocket. I have made many sacrifices including giving up family holidays etc and always looked to help people who want to learn about the game and play it. The RLEF has treated me and others like shit so yes I am very angry because the RLEF are not looking after the people doing the hard work. They dont care about Nations or individuals. Danny Kazandjian said to me "..I want to achieve things and if certain people or nations are lost so be it..." That pisses me off because thats not what Development is about. Development is about giving of yourself for others. Development is thinking about others and how you and the organization can help them best.

Leaving Germany out of this current Shield is not viable, in my opinion, due to them being the current champs. If their not upto standard then they will drop down some level to 'their standard'. Its not a crime in my eyes.

Well I care deeply about Germany. But if a nation like Germany doesnt have the finance or the resources to enter an event they shouldnt be in. I saw what happened with the Dutch. They were encouraged to play in the WC qualifiers and really they were not ready for it. What happened was they went backwards and barely survived. A mate of mine Tommo was left seriously out of pocket. I dont want that to happen to Germany or anybody involved with it. The RLEF should not be pushing Nations in to a comp that they seriously will struggle to fulfill games in. Germany struggled to get a team to Norway this year. We have struggled to get a team to the Czech republic in the past. Both times the Coach was having to teach people how to play the ball, how to pass and how to tackle. That should not happen at International level and certainly I fear the worst if Germany have to do the same when playing against Italy, Serbia and Russia.

I dont know about the internal state of affairs within the country but if it is in the shape you claim it is then you need to get back involved with the club you started OR start another and show them the errors in their ways to get internal support for yourself. I dont know the internal politics involved with your mission but I do know that in my own battle I had to spill my own blood on occasions, on the field as well as off it, to prove my worth.

First Germany is not a club its a federation. I left the Federation that I set up and helped grow because of the RLEF and I will never help people if they are with the RLEF due to the way the RLEF is run and the people involved there. Germany currently has no Domestic Comp. Has very little development except for using in the main Union players. RLD and the RLEF would rather spend money on other things-which I strongly disagree with. Now I respect your thoughts but I feel people should know that the RLEF is not the great white hope and that things are not as well as is being reported. The RLEF should be doing its best to look after Nations and people and not just look after the interests of its leader.

 

[Evil Homer]

We also feel development in schools, Universities and building domestically should come before playing Internationals especially ones that have a big potential financial and other problems not just to Germany but individuals.

So why did this not happen in the years you were involved with RLD, and why do you feel that it would now be achieveable without the backing of the RLEF?

With due respect, and I don't mean to criticise anyone working to develop the game, but the founders of the sport in various nations aren't always going to be the right people to take it forward long-term, they aren't neccessarily going to be good administrators or have any real idea about development, they are just passionate and enthusiastic volunteers. We've seen in America the problems that can be caused when people are unable to accept challenges to their leadership. I'm not saying that your concerns are unfounded DK, but do you honestly feel that continuing to air your dirty laundry on this forum is the right thing to do?

 

[obsulete]

Firstly I am bitter-but only against the RLEF. They should be helping the people like me and Yanto in developing the sport. I have personally spent thousands of Euros out of my own pocket. I have made many sacrifices including giving up family holidays etc and always looked to help people who want to learn about the game and play it. The RLEF has treated me and others like shit so yes I am very angry because the RLEF are not looking after the people doing the hard work. They dont care about Nations or individuals. Danny Kazandjian said to me "..I want to achieve things and if certain people or nations are lost so be it..." That pisses me off because thats not what Development is about. Development is about giving of yourself for others. Development is thinking about others and how you and the organization can help them best.



Well I care deeply about Germany. But if a nation like Germany doesnt have the finance or the resources to enter an event they shouldnt be in. I saw what happened with the Dutch. They were encouraged to play in the WC qualifiers and really they were not ready for it. What happened was they went backwards and barely survived. A mate of mine Tommo was left seriously out of pocket. I dont want that to happen to Germany or anybody involved with it. The RLEF should not be pushing Nations in to a comp that they seriously will struggle to fulfill games in. Germany struggled to get a team to Norway this year. We have struggled to get a team to the Czech republic in the past. Both times the Coach was having to teach people how to play the ball, how to pass and how to tackle. That should not happen at International level and certainly I fear the worst if Germany have to do the same when playing against Italy, Serbia and Russia.


First Germany is not a club its a federation. I left the Federation that I set up and helped grow because of the RLEF and I will never help people if they are with the RLEF due to the way the RLEF is run and the people involved there. I am looking at starting another Federation up with a couple of people who also have had enough with the RLEF. We dont want to do this but feel forced to because of the way the RLEF has manipulated RLD and is using it for its benefit rather than for the benefit of Germany and developing the game. Whether the new federation will actually happen we will see, but the split has nothing to do with anybody at RLD and we are friends. Our split is because of the RLEF and we dont want anything to do with them because of their attitude. We also feel development in schools, Universities and building domestically should come before playing Internationals especially ones that have a big potential financial and other problems not just to Germany but individuals. Germany currently has no Domestic Comp. Has very little development except for using in the main Union players. RLD and the RLEF would rather spend money on other things-which a couple of us strongly disagree with. Now I respect your thoughts but I feel people should know that the RLEF is not the great white hope and that things are not as well as is being reported. The RLEF should be doing its best to look after Nations and people and not just look after the interests of its leader.

Ok, well firstly I was a bit worried that I may have been a bit to strong in my response, but your reply was measured and didn't sound annoyed so thanks for that!

So you're angry! GOOD!! I would be too!!! but use it in your favour, dont be bitter.

RLEF isn't a strong organisation, anymore than TGG has a credible international presence, or is organised! It can be overcome on a local level, within, so talk of starting a rival federation is both a waste of time and effort.

DRL doesn't have a local competition of note and no junior development that I can readily see so essentially it is just a club. There will be infighting but thats natural. It can be overcome and progress can be made.

I'll make you a proposition. I'm a Welsh Australian who came home to get to know my roots (which I have successfully done) and also get a base to be better involved with TGG in Wales. The latter has not manifested due to the current economic climate which has made ongoing work impossible, and unlikely to happen, so I'm heading back to Oz. I'm looking forward to going back as I'm a recent uncle and would love to be actively involved with helping my family, but am also ambitious.

You find me work in Germany (I'm a british passport holder) and I'll help you with your dream. I'm a former coach, DO, President, player (not any good player though!!).

Build a team, headhunt! Thats what successful organisations do.


Edit: trainee DO/ club-school liaison officer I should say

 

[langpark]

I am completely behind Der Kaiser on this one and I can't believe you guys can't get what he's saying.

Why should the Germans tour if, as he said, there's not even a domestic comp? It's like asking someone to build a house when they don't even have the land to build it on. It's like telling a kid in PNG to take an overseas study trip, when he barely has money to buy food!

Why are the RLEF doing this? So we can have a false security about how widespread our game is? So we can put more dots on the map and think we're the best? It's like when Greece played Serbia in 2006, and we all got suckered in to thinking "great, the game is going to take off in Greece". But it was all a sham, the teams was full of Sydney-born and raised Greeks and it was the first time the game was EVER played on Greek soil.

The RLEF are doing things back to front. A game should put down some roots and have a stable domestic set up before any internationals are played, let alone a tour. As someone said, Serbia should be considered the perfect model of how to establish the game and other nations should strive to mirror what they've done.

The whole thing defies logic...

 

[Der Kaiser]

So why did this not happen in the years you were involved with RLD, and why do you feel that it would now be achieveable without the backing of the RLEF?

We tried-we have a RLEF payed Development officer but he has never really gone in to Schools and Unis. He tried and still tries using Union players including Youths. That is not Development. He refused to work with the board at times. I tried to get him changed but the RLEF refused

The reason Germany struggled to build a domestic league was the distance. You cant expect people to travel up to 700KM to play games. It costs too much and also people dont have the time to spend 14 hours travelling there and back. The areas we had South Bavaria, Heidelberg/ Kaiserslautern, North of Frankfurt and Cologne didnt have enough to have teams and was too far spaced from one another. Rugby Union struggles with this problem as well. I organized 9s events (Heidelburg, Munich, Calbach etc) as this made more sense to build things. Danny Kazandjian said he only wanted 13s and basically said 9s was a waste. 13 a side League will not happen for a while due to distances and over reliance on Union players. A Domestic League was tried last year but only 2 games from a possible 10 actually happened sadly and they were 7 v7 and 8 v 8.

 

[obsulete]

I do get what he's saying, and I'm not against him.

I'm just offering my opinion, albeit with limited understanding of the climate on the ground.

Der Kaiser is obviously passionate about Germany and also disillusioned about the situation. But to turn his back on the RLEF because of the arrogance of it's current head to me, especially after personal sacrifice both financially and personally, and if he has the support (even just in principle) of DRL is extreme.

It's the RLEF's right to not consider domestic situations ie micro level in favour of the 'big picture' or macro level as at the end of the day not all domestic leagues will prosper - or will prosper in the short term and then may fade away in the longer term with different leadership and poor internal systems.

Der Kaiser has indicated that discussion has been had re a rival federation, and my only comment is that he thinks he's been hitting his head against a brick wall to date, just wait until you get a situation like Italy or USA!

I consider myself part optimist, part realist and I also get frustrated with internal club/federation politics. I'm a junior development person rather than sustaining senior squads as I know from experience that funding, fundraising, volunteerism, and overall satisfaction/appreciation is far higher at junior level.

I know few things about the situation on the ground in Germany, but I do know that governments are spending money to get kids active (opportunity for funding juniors), corporations want to get kids onside to buy their products (opportunity for sponsorship of junior programs), Germany is a big boy on the world stage (a feather in RLEF cap if they can get a foothold), and Germany's first two games are home ties (opportunity to canvas for potential sponsors and introduce them to TGG).

Thats all I'm saying, Germany would be considered a high priority nation, along with the other countries with large economic bases and populations, so fight the system for sure, but pick your battles. While the current domestic situation is relevant, it's just point zero when planning the future strategy.

 

[deal.with.it]

That was a really good post Obsulete!

Although none of us know exactly what the situation in Germany is, a part from what Der Kaiser can tell us, there is always alternative options.
It would be very difficult to try run a sport without the real help of the RLEF.
Junior development is the way to go. And that is something you don't need the RLEF for. The only real cost is time. And if you have time, then junior devlopment in Germany is possible.
Tell the gov't and businesses that you have 500 kids playing the game, and they will show u their support.
Everyone knows kids are the future, in what ever the field is, so if the RLEF is useless, work with what you've got and work to your strengths.
All the best Der Kaiser with the process. But starting your own RLEF org is not the way to go. RL needs a functioning RLIF, RLEF and APRLF. We are to young to throw what good elements of these bodies we do have.

 

[obsulete]

That was a really good post Obsulete!

Although none of us know exactly what the situation in Germany is, a part from what Der Kaiser can tell us, there is always alternative options.
It would be very difficult to try run a sport without the real help of the RLEF.
Junior development is the way to go. And that is something you don't need the RLEF for. The only real cost is time. And if you have time, then junior devlopment in Germany is possible.
Tell the gov't and businesses that you have 500 kids playing the game, and they will show u their support.
Everyone knows kids are the future, in what ever the field is, so if the RLEF is useless, work with what you've got and work to your strengths.
All the best Der Kaiser with the process. But starting your own RLEF org is not the way to go. RL needs a functioning RLIF, RLEF and APRLF. We are to young to throw what good elements of these bodies we do have.

I hear what your saying, but I don't believe in lying for funding so I'd say you have no juniors but plan to get 500 to 1000 active kids pending on funding in an area. I'd write an after school program to start and deliver that. Which was called a community coach program where I was involved, which did a short 6 week program from school to school. Introducing kids to a variety of sports. Then once that was a success I would deliver it as a during school activity with the backing of the RLEF and start a proper development program in each city or town which has a league presence. On top of that I would start a holiday program (for a fee) which the kids could play competitive tag based on school teams which would form the basis of the junior tackle league. That way you could start junior leagues (like in queensland in a country the size of Germany).

It's all very simple if you have inside knowledge, which I don't have in Germany anyway, the hardest part is getting volunteers (which would be compensated for time) as in this day and age it's hard to do anything totally free due to the tough financial situation of the times.

Ive seen kids with no league knowledge playing a modified game within an hours contact! I've also seen the failure of a federation/association to capitalise on the enthusiasm of it's potential players due to numbers chasing coupled with lack of coordination with it' local clubs, however I've also seen when it fluecked it's timing to get volunteers on the ground and the resulting numbers of kids playing in local teams!

 

[obsulete]

The reason Germany struggled to build a domestic league was the distance. You cant expect people to travel up to 700KM to play games. It costs too much and also people dont have the time to spend 14 hours travelling there and back. The areas we had South Bavaria, Heidelberg/ Kaiserslautern, North of Frankfurt and Cologne didnt have enough to have teams and was too far spaced from one another. Rugby Union struggles with this problem as well. I organized 9s events (Heidelburg, Munich, Calbach etc) as this made more sense to build things. Danny Kazandjian said he only wanted 13s and basically said 9s was a waste. 13 a side League will not happen for a while due to distances and over reliance on Union players. A Domestic League was tried last year but only 2 games from a possible 10 actually happened sadly and they were 7 v7 and 8 v 8.

This can be over come by running your 9's tourney then picking players to represent regions, of your choosing (2 regions 4 regions 20 regions, who cares) in a 13 a side game at the end of each tourney. Then a national team could be picked.

I've worked in commission only roles where my boss has told me 'the means justifies the ends' i.e telling lies, but I've challenged that way of thinking and proved to be successful, so run with your gut! Nod at meetings if you have to, even when you disagree, then do what's best! It's how it's been done for centuries..

 

[deal.with.it]

I wasn't referring to lying about junior numbers. I meant actually go to the schools and get them playing. Then, getting funding from the gov't will be easier (not easy, but easier than if you didn't go to the schools). All you need is time on your hands to get into the schools.

 

[obsulete]

I wasn't referring to lying about junior numbers. I meant actually go to the schools and get them playing. Then, getting funding from the gov't will be easier (not easy, but easier than if you didn't go to the schools). All you need is time on your hands to get into the schools.

I didn't mean you meant it in a deceptive way, I just meant you can get funding without having any juniors, so long as you have a viable plan to get them!