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2 Tier Super League?

S.S.T.I.D

Bench
Messages
3,641
Fair enough. It did prompt a 25 page thread and counting on rlfans, though, so I thought it might have been worthy of discussion here.
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
It's symptomatic of some of the idiots associated with RL in England that they would even consider this to be a viable idea. Such a shame that people still clamour for a return to a system of P&R when it is totally unsuitable for the sport at present.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,489
I don't think relegation is wise in an unstable market but I do wonder if they'd benefit from some kind of division/conference format - depending on how many teams they had.
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,181
tbh i think it has alot of merits...

super league 1

1. wigan
2. st helens
3. warrington
4. catalan
5. london
6. leeds
7. bradford
8. huddersfield
9. hull fc
10. hull kr

super league 2 - own tv deal & salary cap of £1m

1. widnes
2. salford
3. wakefield
4. castleford
5. featherstone
6. halifax
7. sheffield
8. leigh
9. batley
10. toulouse

championship........everyone else thats left lol

i'd be happy with that.........our top teams & players playing less but more intense,competitive games can only be a good thing imo.


ps i've not commented on RLfans about this....thus i'd like to think im not a idiot :lol:
 
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PacificCoastRL

Juniors
Messages
316
I really think promotion and relegation is a ridiculous way to enter teams into elite competitions. P and R is more about on-field competitveness, while being able to compete in the top competitions in the world is more about financials. As for how many teams, I think eight teams would be plenty for Super League. It would certainly make for more competitive games, which would drive up attendance and put more money in team's pockets. As for the teams - I'm not familiar enough with Super League, but believe Wigan, Leeds, St. Helen's and Catalan would be no-brainers to be involved.
 
Messages
2,364
tbh i think it has alot of merits...

super league 1

1. wigan
2. st helens
3. warrington
4. catalan
5. london
6. leeds
7. bradford
8. huddersfield
9. hull fc
10. hull kr

super league 2 - own tv deal & salary cap of £1m

1. widnes
2. salford
3. wakefield
4. castleford
5. featherstone
6. halifax
7. sheffield
8. leigh
9. batley
10. toulouse

championship........everyone else thats left lol

i'd be happy with that.........our top teams & players playing less but more intense,competitive games can only be a good thing imo.


ps i've not commented on RLfans about this....thus i'd like to think im not a idiot :lol:

Wouldn't the problem with that be that Super League 2 literally comes a B league. Surely it would just replace the Championship in a way and wouldn't command that much fan interest relatively, TV or otherwise.

I think I'd be more inclined, in theory and nothing else, to support a 4 group system rather than 2, with a more even divide between quality. Perhaps even 3 groups of 6.

I don't see how any would work, 2, 3 or 4, unless there was an even divide in tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 quality teams though. If you have all tier 1 in 1 group, all tier 2 in the 2nd, etc, you're basically just re-branding already existing comps aren't you?
 

Teddyboy

First Grade
Messages
6,573
Lancashire/Cumbria Conference
Yorkshire Conference
French Conference
Sorted let the little in's mix with the big ones and Iam sure the likes of Barrow/Oldham/York and some French team could get the same support as Salford and London and get crowds of 2000.
 
Messages
2,364
Lancashire/Cumbria Conference
Yorkshire Conference
French Conference
Sorted let the little in's mix with the big ones and Iam sure the likes of Barrow/Oldham/York and some French team could get the same support as Salford and London and get crowds of 2000.

That's a long the lines of how I was thinking, but I wasn't sure how you'd necessarily split it

If you played it similar to the NFL where teams play certain teams outside of their specific group I think that could be worked

Basically though when I think of the future of Super League that's how I see it, similar to what you've outlined. Emphasis on the word future. It would take some serious planning and probably some change in attitudes to really get it working. I have no idea how viable it is where money, broadcasting, etc would be concerned. Spud and others will have a much better idea as to that

3 or 4 fairly even divided conferences would be great though I think. The good thing about doing that is that on paper each conference would have almost equal legitimacy in fans eyes and in broadcasters eyes(as much as is possible, naturally some conferences would have a better stock of teams than others), and you'd get games between each division so it would be more like they're apart of the same comp. Where as a 2 tier competition, with all the second rate teams in the 2nd division, would be ignored by the big broadcasters and fans I think, it would be seen as wholly seperate for the reason Homer mentioned.

I notice on RLfans I don't think anyone really mentioned what we're talking about, so maybe we're just mad mate, wouldn't be the first time :lol:
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
I notice on RLfans I don't think anyone really mentioned what we're talking about, so maybe we're just mad mate, wouldn't be the first time :lol:
Because it doesn't really address the issue, which is supposedly about 'raising standards' but in reality is just because a lot of English RL fans are idiots who cannot let the idea of P&R go and are desperate to try and find some sort of way to crowbar it into the game no matter how unsuitable it is. Now that the concept of straight P&R between the current divisions has been buried, this 'two-tier Super League' is their latest attempt, in reality it is an even less logical idea than the previous system which is why as I said it is a complete non-starter.
 

Teddyboy

First Grade
Messages
6,573
That's a long the lines of how I was thinking, but I wasn't sure how you'd necessarily split it

If you played it similar to the NFL where teams play certain teams outside of their specific group I think that could be worked

Basically though when I think of the future of Super League that's how I see it, similar to what you've outlined. Emphasis on the word future. It would take some serious planning and probably some change in attitudes to really get it working. I have no idea how viable it is where money, broadcasting, etc would be concerned. Spud and others will have a much better idea as to that

3 or 4 fairly even divided conferences would be great though I think. The good thing about doing that is that on paper each conference would have almost equal legitimacy in fans eyes and in broadcasters eyes(as much as is possible, naturally some conferences would have a better stock of teams than others), and you'd get games between each division so it would be more like they're apart of the same comp. Where as a 2 tier competition, with all the second rate teams in the 2nd division, would be ignored by the big broadcasters and fans I think, it would be seen as wholly seperate for the reason Homer mentioned.

I notice on RLfans I don't think anyone really mentioned what we're talking about, so maybe we're just mad mate, wouldn't be the first time :lol:

The 2 semi pro leagues below SL are not going anywhere have nothing really to play for and are limited but if you going to get 2000 at London then Iam sure 1000 plus to 4000 could be achieved with these teams.
We all know that the big 4/6 will win the grand final in the end but at least you be in for a chance through the season and it would be killing 2 birds with one stone as it be a mix of CC/SL.
Wages would be a issue for the smaller clubs esp this day and age so clubs but what Iam saying it's one comp set in 3 and hopefully for 4 conferences that teams are pro and semi pro.It's the only idea for the survival of the smaller clubs and playing the big boys in a conference would bring in some much need dosh.

And no you and I are not mad it's just the 99.99% of the world is:)
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
I dont like the idea, but if there must be a conference system, why not something like this which could work:
Pool A
1. Wigan
2. Leeds
3. Warrington
4. St Helens
5. Toulose
6. Hull
7. London
8. Catalans
Pool B
1. Castleford
2. Wakefield
3. Hull KR
4. Salford
5. Widnes
6. Huddersfield
7. Bradford
8. Lezignan

Advantages
The teams in pool A are mostly well drawing teams, big name teams or one town one city isolated teams. The big name northern teams dont need derby games to draw well and suffer the least from. the one team one city teams struggle with attendances and getting away support but these games i imagine would be best for them. Each of these teams would concentrate on getting home support more than away support.

Pool B teams are all traditionally strong teams and their are good existing rivalries between all the teams. The game against one french team means that these club supporters can market the french game as an away weekend (like catalan currently is). All clubs here are solid supporting clubs and all could hope to compete in the end of year super bowls. Taking out the big clubs in the other group is compensated for these clubs by removing the poor drawing clubs and they can build their crowds slowly. Also, the conference set up gives these sides a realistic chance of winning the whole superleague and that will do more for crowds than anything else.

Finances - This requires the financing of two teams (Toulouse and Lezignan) both could be financed and indeed it has been talked about in the past. So i think the financing is there to make this a realistic option and with the two French teams coming in, Toulouse is almost certain to bring the finances to compete regardless of what happens. Lezignan are obviously a smaller club (finance wise) and their are other options. Perhaps even in france, but i have stuck with them because they are a traditional club from a taditional area, and they have the ability to attract supporters, rebrand even relocate etc. In the short term, i think they deserve a shot. The advantage of a French side is that they give that one or two weekends a year travel option. Also, unlike a Welsh or Northern English club, they will not lower any standards because every player picked for them will likely not come from England (presumably Toulouse will be the same) There are plenty of Australian players who would prop up the local French, so you would be left with 16 teams of the same quality as is currently had.

Competitiveness- By using a conference system (and one solitary superleague table), it means a number of things. Firstly, for the first time in ages clubs like Castleford,Hull KR etc could legitimately top the table. Secondly, big clubs like Wigan, Saints Leeds etc will need to really perform to make the finals and there are no guarantees i think this should increase interest in their games. There is a downside in that toulouse, London and Catalans might struggle to compete, but both have in the past shown an ability to compete with the big clubs (Catalans arguably are one at the moment). And Toulouse wanted big games and superleague. I get the feeling that this sort of setup might force these clubs to really lift their game.

Crossover games. Presumably this set up would see three rounds played. This leaves crossover games of one or maybe two games. The first could be rivalry based eg Hull vs Hull KR etc, which would get huge crowds and be marketable games. While the second could be based on standing after two rounds ie 1 v 1, 2 v 2 etc.


After initially not liking the idea, having thought about it, i am starting to come around. I think it might be worth a go or at least worth further consideration.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,489
After initially not liking the idea, having thought about it, i am starting to come around. I think it might be worth a go or at least worth further consideration.

The nature of divisions/conferences are going to come into acceptance in Rugby League circles as the various leagues expand.

It just means that these are more games in the season with a marketing angle do draw crowds. Obviously the composition of these divisions/conferences are a matter of further discussion.

But for example, say you used the 2 x 8 team conference format

If they want to keep the current 27 game schedule:
14 games are conference games
8 games are against teams in the other conference
2 games could be against teams in the other conference that are traditional rivals (i.e. so French teams could play twice etc) to ensure those games are played home and away every year
1 more game against a team in the other conference on Magic Weekend

Say a top Four from Each conference then the finals could take on a challenge cup style pure knockout cup final format -

Week 1: A1 v A4, A2 v A3, B1 v B4, B2 v B3 (winners are AA, AB, BA, BB)
Week 2: Conference Championships AA v AB, BA v BB
Week 3: Super Bowl type Grand Final A v B

The nature of this is obviously that teams that rarely win/get to the Grand Final can sell the fact that they're Conference Champions etc.
 
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bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
The nature of divisions/conferences are going to come into acceptance in Rugby League circles as the various leagues expand.

It just means that these are more games in the season with a marketing angle do draw crowds. Obviously the composition of these divisions/conferences are a matter of further discussion.

But for example, say you used the 2 x 8 team conference format

If they want to keep the current 27 game schedule:
14 games are conference games
8 games are against teams in the other conference
2 games could be against teams in the other conference that are traditional rivals (i.e. so French teams could play twice etc) to ensure those games are played home and away every year
1 more game against a team in the other conference on Magic Weekend

Say a top Four from Each conference then the finals could take on a challenge cup style pure knockout cup final format -

Week 1: A1 v A4, A2 v A3, B1 v B4, B2 v B3 (winners are AA, AB, BA, BB)
Week 2: Conference Championships AA v AB, BA v BB
Week 3: Super Bowl type Grand Final A v B

The nature of this is obviously that teams that rarely win/get to the Grand Final can sell the fact that they're Conference Champions etc.


The conference system is actually not new or novel to Rugby League. the ARL used a North and South conference system for a few years (no one even Knew or noticed it until one year when South Sydney upset the form guide and lost nearly every game, thus skewing the win loss figures and making everyone notice that the north conference was much harder than the south conference. After this the conferences were selected based on finishing position in the previous years. You dont even really notice them if you have a unified table.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,489
The conference system is actually not new or novel to Rugby League. the ARL used a North and South conference system for a few years (no one even Knew or noticed it until one year when South Sydney upset the form guide and lost nearly every game, thus skewing the win loss figures and making everyone notice that the north conference was much harder than the south conference. After this the conferences were selected based on finishing position in the previous years. You dont even really notice them if you have a unified table.

Yes. There's just a stigma sometimes with anything new or dare I say it, American...
 

Teddyboy

First Grade
Messages
6,573
I dont like the idea, but if there must be a conference system, why not something like this which could work:
Pool A
1. Wigan
2. Leeds
3. Warrington
4. St Helens
5. Toulose
6. Hull
7. London
8. Catalans
Pool B
1. Castleford
2. Wakefield
3. Hull KR
4. Salford
5. Widnes
6. Huddersfield
7. Bradford
8. Lezignan

Advantages
The teams in pool A are mostly well drawing teams, big name teams or one town one city isolated teams. The big name northern teams dont need derby games to draw well and suffer the least from. the one team one city teams struggle with attendances and getting away support but these games i imagine would be best for them. Each of these teams would concentrate on getting home support more than away support.

Pool B teams are all traditionally strong teams and their are good existing rivalries between all the teams. The game against one french team means that these club supporters can market the french game as an away weekend (like catalan currently is). All clubs here are solid supporting clubs and all could hope to compete in the end of year super bowls. Taking out the big clubs in the other group is compensated for these clubs by removing the poor drawing clubs and they can build their crowds slowly. Also, the conference set up gives these sides a realistic chance of winning the whole superleague and that will do more for crowds than anything else.

Finances - This requires the financing of two teams (Toulouse and Lezignan) both could be financed and indeed it has been talked about in the past. So i think the financing is there to make this a realistic option and with the two French teams coming in, Toulouse is almost certain to bring the finances to compete regardless of what happens. Lezignan are obviously a smaller club (finance wise) and their are other options. Perhaps even in france, but i have stuck with them because they are a traditional club from a taditional area, and they have the ability to attract supporters, rebrand even relocate etc. In the short term, i think they deserve a shot. The advantage of a French side is that they give that one or two weekends a year travel option. Also, unlike a Welsh or Northern English club, they will not lower any standards because every player picked for them will likely not come from England (presumably Toulouse will be the same) There are plenty of Australian players who would prop up the local French, so you would be left with 16 teams of the same quality as is currently had.

Competitiveness- By using a conference system (and one solitary superleague table), it means a number of things. Firstly, for the first time in ages clubs like Castleford,Hull KR etc could legitimately top the table. Secondly, big clubs like Wigan, Saints Leeds etc will need to really perform to make the finals and there are no guarantees i think this should increase interest in their games. There is a downside in that toulouse, London and Catalans might struggle to compete, but both have in the past shown an ability to compete with the big clubs (Catalans arguably are one at the moment). And Toulouse wanted big games and superleague. I get the feeling that this sort of setup might force these clubs to really lift their game.

Crossover games. Presumably this set up would see three rounds played. This leaves crossover games of one or maybe two games. The first could be rivalry based eg Hull vs Hull KR etc, which would get huge crowds and be marketable games. While the second could be based on standing after two rounds ie 1 v 1, 2 v 2 etc.


After initially not liking the idea, having thought about it, i am starting to come around. I think it might be worth a go or at least worth further consideration.

But what clubs like Barrow/Swinton/Doncaster ???
 

DINGb@T

Juniors
Messages
834
A 2 tier system would only work if they had exactly the same salary cap in both divisions. Then the teams are all on the same footing as clubs and the achievement of making it to the grand final would be all about on field performance. And people will want to back their team as they try to make it into the top tier.

If the salary cap is different, ie much lower in the second division, then the second division teams will be 'lesser', interest will be lower in the second comp and there will be no tv deals worth having (why would you show the lesser teams with the half-quality teams when you can just show the 'proper' teams in the top grade?).

But would the comp want to split into two 8 team divisions on the same salary cap? The bottom teams would probably revolt because of the lower gates with the missing top tier teams. And the top tier teams may become enchanted with the idea of having just a top 8 permanently.

I think it would only work if the Superleague (or RFL?) can pay the full salary cap for every team and let the clubs take care of other expenses. Otherwise the lower gate issue will be a proper problem for the lower drawing teams, meaning they are effectively locked out of the full salary cap and truly would be lesser teams.

Otherwise this might be an all right idea. The Challenge Cup would be more interesting as teams from either side of the draw face off, there will be more even games for either group, winning the top place (or two) in the bottom league would be a real achievement, coming 7th or 8th in the top something to be really avoided, and the finals will be between the top few, rather than over half the league as it is now.

It could work if they did it right.

But everyone in each devision would have to be on the same salary cap.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
With two groups of 8 teams, this is realistic and achievable if the additional two teams are French like i suggested, then with possible French TV money and/or the additional sponsors and money those two teams can attract, i think it is definitely workable, if that was the direction the clubs wanted to take.

The danger though is that if it doesnt work out, there is every chance that the conference with the big teams would turn into the superleague and the other conference would get dropped. Dont forget, when you think of it, what i have suggested is almost exactly what happened in Australia during the Superleague war (albeit without the unified table and playoff system and backdrop of the bad publicity of teh "war") and that wasnt exactly successful.

There are dangers for all teams involved in this one.
 
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