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France's proposed Super 13 Pro League - Which teams?

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
I don't even know where to start with what's wrong with that.

Actually, i think you need to start with what is right with the idea.!

The more i think about this, the more i think that there is the long term potential for such a concept to rival what rugby union has built there world cup into (and unlike most on here, i can remember the days when the union world cup was literally a nothing event smaller in status than the world sevens), with union (like league not really played competitively anywhere outside of Britain, France, NZ and Australia. Hard work for them (the reemergence from the bans of SA helped as well) eventually changed this. A concept like is proposed can help do this, because it gives the smaller nations something to aim for domestically.

off the top of my head, i see no reason why we couldnt see the following champions square off:
Round 1
Russia v Serbia - East Europe Champs
Canada v Jamaica - American carribean champs
USARL v AMNRL - US Champs
PNG v Fiji - Pacific Champs
South Africa v Lebanon - African/middle east champs
NSW v Qld Cup - Australian Champs

Round 2
East Europe Champs v African/Carribean Champs - International Champs
French Champs v Pacitic Champs International 2 champs
Australian Champs v NZ Champs - Trans tasman champs
Amrican/Carribean Champs v us champs - American champs

Round 3
American Champs v International Champs - Super Champs
International 2 champs v Super League Champs
NRL Champs v Trans Tasman Champs - Southern Champs

round 4
Super Champs v ESL champs - Northern champs

Round 5
southern v Northern champs

I think that something like the above tournament would give those in the smaller nations something to aim for and would ultimately lead to an awesome World Club Challenge where half the interest would be in the qualifying matches, before the NRL/ESL players come in. this would encourage and enable those from the smaller nations to really build and concentrate on their own teams. I have probably started quite a bit bigger than the first couple of tournaments should but it gives the point of what i am thinking might not be anywhere near as far fetchedd as what it sounds.
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
I don't think a sustained worldwide competition will ever really be feasible due to costs, traveling/time-zone differentials etc. There would be a lot of mileage in regional/continental club championships, but obviously these would require multiple full-time leagues and that probably won't occur in any of our lifetimes. I guess you could have the winners of these competitions meet in some sort of world championship similar to the one in football (soccer), but honestly I'm not sure how much impact it would have, it would probably face the same problems that the soccer competition does.

You also can't compare a club competition to a World Cup, I don't know why you would even consider that.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
I don't think a sustained worldwide competition will ever really be feasible due to costs, traveling/time-zone differentials etc. There would be a lot of mileage in regional/continental club championships, but obviously these would require multiple full-time leagues and that probably won't occur in any of our lifetimes. I guess you could have the winners of these competitions meet in some sort of world championship similar to the one in football (soccer), but honestly I'm not sure how much impact it would have, it would probably face the same problems that the soccer competition does.

You also can't compare a club competition to a World Cup, I don't know why you would even consider that.

Why not?

Isnt much of the benefit that many people talk about of a world cup, giving incentive to home grown domestic players to reach a higher level and test themselves. Why should this be at rep level when it can be done at club level so much easier, giving local clubs something to aspire to at their own level.

It also allows (not that i am suggesting this route) the loan players options which makes the tournament competitive without suffering the "credibility loss" that so many are so worried about.

Even as things stand, if the world club challenge was to be expanded tomorrow, there are substantial benefits in having the NRL Champs v the PNG Champs and ESL champs v French champs as warm ups to a World challenge final. As one sided as they would be expected to be, both games would be huge events in France and PNG if promoted correctly (admittedly png moreso). With the right luck, i could see France and PNG earning their starts by beating USA and Fijian champs. And with the right staggering of results and timing of seasons, The chance for more and more countries to join at their own level gives the domestic players and clubs a chance to aim for something. This is what happened with the union world cup, and this how the game of union started to grow. RL is more club orientated, why not use it to our advantage from an international aspect?
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
Because it's stupid to even attempt to do so, a World Cup is a global event, a club competition will be of interest to a couple of clubs involved and maybe some enthusiastic neutrals.

If you want an 'equivalent to the RU World Cup', here it is. www.rlwc2013.com

That's also our equivalent to the football World Cup, cricket World Cup and every other World Cup.
Even as things stand, if the world club challenge was to be expanded tomorrow, there are substantial benefits in having the NRL Champs v the PNG Champs and ESL champs v French champs as warm ups to a World challenge final.
No, it wouldn't. Last year the French champions played Featherstone, the Co-Operative Champions from 2011, and Featherstone were up 42-6 by half time. You cannot have competition in RL where it's a semi-pro team against full-timers. Even at international level, we need as many nations with as many full-time players as possible for them to have any hope of not being blown away. Trying to pit any full-time team, let alone a champion team, against semi-pros would just be a waste of time for everyone.
RL is more club orientated, why not use it to our advantage from an international aspect?
It's only more club orientated because people are too lazy and stupid to do things properly and prefer to come up with contrived garbage rather than actually developing the international game. The club game ≠ the international game.
 

chibimatty

Juniors
Messages
80
It's only more club orientated because people are too lazy and stupid to do things properly and prefer to come up with contrived garbage rather than actually developing the international game.

That's a very good point, but it doesn't take away from the fact that he's right; RL is more club orientated. It's always going to be when you only have two major leagues in the world. Whether we were lazy and stupid up to this point is irrelevant, it's what we're stuck with. I can see what he's trying to do, establish some sort of international comp using the game's strength, club football. It's making do with what you have.:)

I don't agree that these warm-ups will be beneficial in any way necessarily, however. I'm all for clubs at the highest level playing each other, but with the SL and NRL the only two shows in town, clubs from outside this sphere are, for all intents and purposes, feeder-clubs. There are French teams in the English system; NZ and Queensland teams in the old Sydney Premiership system, now the NRL. If there are world class players in any other league in the world, they will end up in these two competitions. The Catalan Dragons are the best French club in the world. The Warriors are the best NZ club in the world. They would both beat the respective champions from their home countries in a canter, and in doing so devalue those leagues in the eyes of the sports public. Should teams from those leagues get a leg up into a world championship competition? Not if they can't get near the Dragons and the Warriors, it becomes a farce. Can you imagine the Storm thumping Lezignan knowing that the Catalan Dragons would have been more worthy opponents? Knowing that the best players in the Lezignan and French development systems have moved on to SL, NRL and the British 2nd tier? Knowing that the best French club hasn't qualified from SL, but a club from it's feeder competition has? The idea has some merit if it's for semi-pro and amateur teams only, but then we'll end up in a situation where there is a grander world competition for lesser teams while the world's best play in a one-off pre-season game; again, that's farcical. I can understand your idea for loaning players around, but again, this is already done for the World Cup, which is our best tool for international awareness in the wider world audience.

The term "World Cup" has a lustre to it that attracts the world media, much more than "World Club Championship" "World Championship" "World Series" or "Trinations" Especially to a world which doesn't know the difference between an All Black and a Kangaroo. We should continue to pump this up. And with internationals, promotion goes along way. Get a few faces on telly in the states for example, USA vs whoever, show a few big hits and dazzling skills and promote it.

The best way to bring about the World Club concept we'd all like to see would be to overhaul RL at club level in a huge way, involving growing the PNG, French and New Zealand championships to rival the NRL and SL in some way and even the possibility of splitting the Australian premiership and dare I say it, bringing back the BRL(!) All this is fantasy football stuff unfortunately. This will never happen. (But we can dream of an alternate history can't we?):D

Remember, as strong as RL's club football is, it's based on only two major league competitions which may have the funds to afford it. Using clubs on a global level is expensive, impractical and leaves a lot of players from the countries involved out in the cold because their club hasn't qualified. The best idea for your concept would be to look at involving national teams instead- and then reducing the number of fixtures and amount of travel. Unfortunately what you may end up with, is what we already have now anyway.:(

Cheers,
Matty:D

PS:
and unlike most on here, i can remember the days when the union world cup was literally a nothing event smaller in status than the world sevens
Oh and as a rah-rah, our world cup was never a nothing event, our first one was only in 1987, and even that one was bigger and more competitive than any of the four-team league world cups which have been around since the 1950's. Which World Sevens are you talking about? The one Wigan won in 1992 perhaps? :p
 

RedVee

First Grade
Messages
5,856
That's a very good point, but it doesn't take away from the fact that he's right; RL is more club orientated. It's always going to be when you only have two major leagues in the world. Whether we were lazy and stupid up to this point is irrelevant, it's what we're stuck with. I can see what he's trying to do, establish some sort of international comp using the game's strength, club football. It's making do with what you have.:)

I don't agree that these warm-ups will be beneficial in any way necessarily, however. I'm all for clubs at the highest level playing each other, but with the SL and NRL the only two shows in town, clubs from outside this sphere are, for all intents and purposes, feeder-clubs. There are French teams in the English system; NZ and Queensland teams in the old Sydney Premiership system, now the NRL. If there are world class players in any other league in the world, they will end up in these two competitions. The Catalan Dragons are the best French club in the world. The Warriors are the best NZ club in the world. They would both beat the respective champions from their home countries in a canter, and in doing so devalue those leagues in the eyes of the sports public. Should teams from those leagues get a leg up into a world championship competition? Not if they can't get near the Dragons and the Warriors, it becomes a farce. Can you imagine the Storm thumping Lezignan knowing that the Catalan Dragons would have been more worthy opponents? Knowing that the best players in the Lezignan and French development systems have moved on to SL, NRL and the British 2nd tier? Knowing that the best French club hasn't qualified from SL, but a club from it's feeder competition has? The idea has some merit if it's for semi-pro and amateur teams only, but then we'll end up in a situation where there is a grander world competition for lesser teams while the world's best play in a one-off pre-season game; again, that's farcical. I can understand your idea for loaning players around, but again, this is already done for the World Cup, which is our best tool for international awareness in the wider world audience.

The term "World Cup" has a lustre to it that attracts the world media, much more than "World Club Championship" "World Championship" "World Series" or "Trinations" Especially to a world which doesn't know the difference between an All Black and a Kangaroo. We should continue to pump this up. And with internationals, promotion goes along way. Get a few faces on telly in the states for example, USA vs whoever, show a few big hits and dazzling skills and promote it.

The best way to bring about the World Club concept we'd all like to see would be to overhaul RL at club level in a huge way, involving growing the PNG, French and New Zealand championships to rival the NRL and SL in some way and even the possibility of splitting the Australian premiership and dare I say it, bringing back the BRL(!) All this is fantasy football stuff unfortunately. This will never happen. (But we can dream of an alternate history can't we?):D

Remember, as strong as RL's club football is, it's based on only two major league competitions which may have the funds to afford it. Using clubs on a global level is expensive, impractical and leaves a lot of players from the countries involved out in the cold because their club hasn't qualified. The best idea for your concept would be to look at involving national teams instead- and then reducing the number of fixtures and amount of travel. Unfortunately what you may end up with, is what we already :p

It would work better when/if there are 2 NZ teams in the NRL & 2 French teams in the ESL. At least then the French & NZ attendees would be nominally up for grabs.
 

Diesel

Coach
Messages
19,927
How long before France gets a second team? ...if ever?

It's a shame that the Welsh SL team got the chop. The SL had more cred with more non-England teams.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Oh and as a rah-rah, our world cup was never a nothing event, our first one was only in 1987, and even that one was bigger and more competitive than any of the four-team league world cups which have been around since the 1950's. Which World Sevens are you talking about? The one Wigan won in 1992 perhaps? :p

Yes, I can recall the 1987 competition. It was held within a Km or two of where i was brought up at ballymore. Outside of the union hardcore it was a joke of a competition. Believe me. There was no point in sneaking under the wire fence, and certainly no point in putting up that fake 2 dollar parking bucket across the road at downey park, like you could for bigger events like the the exhibition. Most of the locals never even knew it was on.

Fair credit to them though, by the time that Horan and little had come around, union had built a meaningful competition, no matter which way you look at it. Most i have read seem to credit the world cup qualifying comps with helping grow the game internationally (yes i understand there was limited university action before this). Other initiatives like the south pacific cup (involved Qld NSW Fiji Auckland etc) also helped massively. I think there was some type of Argentinian all time great as well who helped make argentina semi competitive. And the reemergence of South Africa was a massive one.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Because it's stupid to even attempt to do so, a World Cup is a global event, a club competition will be of interest to a couple of clubs involved and maybe some enthusiastic neutrals.

you dont think that a club competition is of any interest to those clubs who try but fail to qualify:crazy::roll:

If you want an 'equivalent to the RU World Cup', here it is. www.rlwc2013.com

That's also our equivalent to the football World Cup, cricket World Cup and every other World Cup.
And how does this event have any bearing on a proposed World Club Championship:crazy:
You do realise that it isnt one or the other dont you.
No, it wouldn't. Last year the French champions played Featherstone, the Co-Operative Champions from 2011, and Featherstone were up 42-6 by half time. You cannot have competition in RL where it's a semi-pro team against full-timers. Even at international level, we need as many nations with as many full-time players as possible for them to have any hope of not being blown away. Trying to pit any full-time team, let alone a champion team, against semi-pros would just be a waste of time for everyone. It's only more club orientated because people are too lazy and stupid to do things properly and prefer to come up with contrived garbage rather than actually developing the international game. The club game ≠ the international game.

I am not sure why you think I have any allusions that the french or PNG teams would actually beat the ESL or NRL teams. But i also have no idea why you think that this is a requirement. Would an ESL game not attract more media interest than a featherstone game? Would the game not benefit in areas like Pia, Leziganan or whoever happens to be the current champions of the french game. NOt that I think competiveness of the game really matters, would you give the french champs more of a chance against the ESL champs if they loaned 4 or 5 of the top Australians for the game.

Or are you seriously suggesting the game wouldnt send PNG locals into a Frenzy. When you think about it, a local PNG rep team has pushed a PMs XIII team regularly over the last few years. Could their champions not perform similarly against NRL team and if they did, can we not expect this to benefit the game locally in png?
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
you dont think that a club competition is of any interest to those clubs who try but fail to qualify:crazy::roll:
Not really. The soccer club world championship is an afterthought for casual fans for a number of reasons, I don't see why a RL competition would be any different, or how it would really be of that much benefit. I'm basing this on actual comparisons with a similar competition, not just assumptions.
And how does this event have any bearing on a proposed World Club Championship:crazy:
You do realise that it isnt one or the other dont you.
It doesn't, but it's not international sport, you were trying to push it as such. And certainly a club competition could never be an equivalent to a World Cup as you were saying, and nor should we want it to be.

I am not sure why you think I have any allusions that the french or PNG teams would actually beat the ESL or NRL teams. But i also have no idea why you think that this is a requirement. Would an ESL game not attract more media interest than a featherstone game? Would the game not benefit in areas like Pia, Leziganan or whoever happens to be the current champions of the french game. NOt that I think competiveness of the game really matters, would you give the french champs more of a chance against the ESL champs if they loaned 4 or 5 of the top Australians for the game.
I doubt it would be that much of a big deal, because these areas have access to Super League teams every other week via Catalans. It would certainly turn into a complete farce when the 'champions' were beaten by 80 points. Nobody would be interested, there would be no point in playing the match and it would probably have a negative impact for the French team. And where would they get Australian players from, why would they have any interest in participating at all? This is just completely ridiculous.

Or are you seriously suggesting the game wouldnt send PNG locals into a Frenzy. When you think about it, a local PNG rep team has pushed a PMs XIII team regularly over the last few years. Could their champions not perform similarly against NRL team and if they did, can we not expect this to benefit the game locally in png?
No, because we're talking about pitting a champion full-time team against a bunch of semi-pros/amateurs. If you can't see why this is a bad idea then it's not really worth debating.
 

chibimatty

Juniors
Messages
80
Yes, I can recall the 1987 competition. It was held within a Km or two of where i was brought up at ballymore. Outside of the union hardcore it was a joke of a competition. Believe me. There was no point in sneaking under the wire fence, and certainly no point in putting up that fake 2 dollar parking bucket across the road at downey park, like you could for bigger events like the the exhibition. Most of the locals never even knew it was on.
Fair credit to them though, by the time that Horan and little had come around, union had built a meaningful competition, no matter which way you look at it.

I understand what your saying mate, but it doesn't make it a nothing event. We are talking about a period when the Wallabies played test matches at a couple of grounds which barely held 18,000 people after all; of which half the crowd were Kiwis! What you're actually talking about here is the perception of the Queensland and Australian sports public; not the actual meaningfulness of the tournament itself. A tournament mind you, where the majority of it was held in New Zealand anyway. Those days in the mid to late 80's are actually the beginnings of the growth period of mainstream recognition for rugby in this country. The amazing semi-final loss to France certainly gave the mainstream public the impression that rugby was a tough international sport too, considering those Wallabies were still being lauded for their Grand Slam and Bledisloe winning efforts.

How long before France gets a second team? ...if ever?
It's a shame that the Welsh SL team got the chop. The SL had more cred with more non-England teams.
I know they're pushing Toulouse Olympique as an option, but it would be interesting if they could come up with another merger similar to the Catalans. Maybe a provincial team this time instead? Languedoc-Roussillon or Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur perhaps? I don't know if the French are more club-orientated or whether they'll identify with a provincial team they way we do. Catalans works well because they also represent an ethnic group.

Cheers,
Matty
 
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siv

First Grade
Messages
6,546
Until France and NZ Tier 1 comps are sorted out without clubs playing in the ESL or ARL comps. We cannot have a true world club championship soccor style

At the moment we have 2 Their 1 domestic comps and lots of Tier 2 comps
 

miguel de cervantes

First Grade
Messages
7,468
Based on the FFR13 site and l'Independant newspaper:

The president of the FFR13 Carlos Zalduendo met with Luc Dayan (Lens Football Club owner) in Paris on the 24th of January. The RFL's Nigel Wood was also in Paris on the 23rd and spoke with Zalduendo about

(a) France's world cup matchs including organisation committees for each match, plus media and activities planned around each match
(b) Development projects of the FFR13 (read SuperXIII and Toulouse Olympique)
(c) The return of France to the four nations

One expects Dayan to publish in the near future some more information on the SuperXIII project.

Wood and Zalduendo posed for photos before the historic trophy won by the France on their triumphant tour of Australia in 1951 - the apogee of rugby league in France (sadly 60+ years ago :()
 
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cleary89

Coach
Messages
16,456
Does anyone follow the french league closely? Im heading down to toulouse next weekend and wynny's gonna show me around. Hows he been going for olympique?
 

The Daddy2

Juniors
Messages
38
Not sure what the latest on this is, last i heard was that President Carlos Zalduendo had a meeting with Luc Dayan at the end of January.

I think the comp could be a success if they pick the right teams, 2014 is a bit too soon and i would focus on having this in place over theblong term incorporating Catalan and Toulouse.

My teams would be a combination of old and new:

Catalan Dragons
Aude Cathars
Toulouse Olympique
Avignon Bisons (also representing and playing games at Carpentras)
Albi (Tarn)
Leopards of Aquitaine (playing in Bordeaux)
Lyon Rhone-Villerbaune
Nantes XIII
Paris Saint Germain
Strasbourg
Lille
Lens
 

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