“The Biggest Story In Rugby League”

[imported_R2K]

“The Biggest Story In Rugby League”<u></u> As the Daily Telegraph wrote yesterday, “Forget about the return of Souths - the biggest story in rugby league is the push to bring Saints back to Kogarah Oval” (p.14 ‘Sydney Confidential‘) So don’t miss the Kogarah Oval Information Night this Saturday at 7:30pm. The Information Night is taking place in the auditorium of the Kogarah RSL Club. Don’t miss your opportunity to remind the St.George-Illawarra Club and Kogarah Council that we are passionate about returning the Dragons to their rightful home. Please also invite your friends, family and anybody else who supports the Dragons playing their Sydney home games in the St.George district. The Information Night features a number of high-profile speakers including the legendary Frank Hyde, Tony Squires from ’The Fat’ and former St.George hooker John Dowling. At the conclusion of the Information Night a replay of St.George winning the 1988 Panasonic Cup will be televised on the big screen. There has been a lot of interest in R2K leading up to the big night and R2K has received several letters of support from country areas. These have been sent from Dragons supporters as far away as Orange, Dubbo and St.Georges Basin. The Kogarah RSL have confirmed that attendees can wear football jerseys into the RSL auditorium. As mentioned previously, children are also allowed into the auditorium. The auditorium contains a bar and restroom facilities.

 

[imported_Saint_Benny1]

Great night!
Comment further tomorrow!

 

[Willow]

Fans demand new plans for Kogarah Oval 18th March,2002. Article by www.r2k.info The Return To Kogarah (R2K) group held a successful Information Night at Kogarah RSL on Saturday. A motion was successfully carried for the establishment of a taskforce between Kogarah Council, St.George Leagues Club and R2K to investigate financing an upgrade of Kogarah and to investigate the NRL ground criteria issues. The highlight of the evening was Frank Hyde. Hyde, who spoke as a posthumous gesture to Ernest 'Tiger' Black, was completely in favour of a return to Kogarah Oval by the Dragons and stated that fans have a right to a St.George based homeground. Apart from Hyde's address, over 500 Dragons supporters witnessed passionate and entertaining speeches from Dick Caine, John Dowling, Tony Squires, Peter Bryant and Shane Millard. Robert Stone provided St.George-Illawarra's viewpoint and informed the audience that a shortage of corporate boxes at Jubilee Oval was the main factor in the Club's decision to abandon Kogarah. However, as other speakers pointed out, an additional grandstand at Kogarah would remedy this problem. The Mayor of Kogarah, Jim Taylor, provided a statement confirming that he would be delighted to see the Dragons return to Jubilee and would consider any future development applications for an upgrade of the oval. R2K also endorsed the 'Red &amp; White' ticket which is running for three vacant positions on the Leagues Club board. The main policy of the 'Red &amp; White' ticket is to return the Dragons to Kogarah in 2003 and to work closely with Kogarah Council on a redevelopment of Jubilee Oval. The three candidates, Lachlan McLean, Zoran Mitrevski and Fay Samuel gave well received campaign speeches. The voting for the three vacant positions takes place from Monday, the 18th of March to Thursday, the 21st of March between the hours of 10 AM to 8 PM at the St.George Leagues Club.

 

[Willow]

The complexities of this issue are very apparent. Both sides can make make good points.

Basically, the R2K people want a 50/50 split between Wollongong and St George for home grounds. Quite simply, they want areturn to Kogarah. This is a community driven proposal.

With respect to the St George club and to ex-player and Football Club CEO, Robert Stone, I believe I can summarise the reasoning for not playing at Kogarah Oval in one word:
money

Now I don't know the figures but we were told by the club that they make more money playing out of the SFS. OK, fair enough.

But I have this nagging feeling that its more important to have a home ground in the St George district and the returns this will bring to the local community.

Frank Hyde, now 86, spoke passionately about the importance of community. To his credit, he did not harp on about the 'good ol days'. On the contrary, he spoke of the great advances we have made as a society and how wonderful the world is.
However, he brought home a depressing fact that we are losing the very essence of community when we flatly refuse to cater to the needs and requirements of the people who these technological advances were meant to serve.

By taking away the St George home ground, he said, we are denying future generations the opportunity to watch their local team and are therefore undermining community foundations.

Tony Squires made a sharp speech, cracking a few jokes as he sometimes spoke at a hundred miles an hour. But he made an important point. He said that the SFS is a 'share house'. He went on to say that he is getting too old to live in share houses with
people and he would have thought St George was also old enough to have its own home as well.

The majority of the night went along a similar path and in a way, we were preaching to the converted...the True Believers were all there and quite frankly a few hundred people all agreeing with each other is hardly going to move mountains.

However, as ex-player John Dowling was reminding us about Super League being the root cause of many of the current troubles, he pointed out Leagues Club CEO, Peter Doust who was observing the proceedings from the back of the hall.

The fact that Peter Doust was in the audience and Robert Stone talked and answered questions was proof that this is not a minor issue to the club.

There were other issues raised. Namely, the compromises regarding club history. It was unanimous that the club has won 15 grand finals and that joint venture has no right to ignore this. It is indeed extraordinary the club has published 'news' that the
2001 First Division Grand Final win has been listed as the 'Dragons first premiership'. Not only is this historically incorrect, it also cuts across the grain of opinion which believes in maintaining the history of the St George Dragons as being part of the St
George Illawarra Dragons.

But it was the R2K discussion that was getting the most interest and the night reached a climax as individuals got up and spoke their mind. This brought Robert Stone back into the fray as he entered into debate with members of the audience.

It was during this time that the club revealed that many of the barriers of the past are no longer there. In particular, the NRL home ground criteria means nothing. This doesn't take away the fact that the R2K proposal is a costly and complex issue but at the very least, we now know that the NRL will probably not stand in the way of Saints playing at Kogarah.

Perhaps the most effective statement came from fellow forummer, Gorilla who reminded us all that the first step is always the biggest. He's recommendation that Saints play one game at Kogarah next year was by far the the most rational way to tackle this issue.
But as he spoke about taking this step I could hear voices saying '50/50...one game is not enough' while at the same time I could sense the club's view that one game was too many.

I urge the club and its supporters to resolve this issue and to do so quickly. This has the potential to rip the club apart.

By its very nature, the R2K movement will not go away.

 

[inverted63]

<span>Hi all.
Let me start by saying, I have been a Dragons fan for over 15 years now, &amp; in all that time, they have never played a single game anywhere near where I live. Despite this, I am still an ardent Dragons fan!
My point is, it doesn't matter where they play - TRUE Dragons fans will still support them. The vast majority of Dragons fans do not live in Kogarah, but are dispersed throughout Australia. Accordingly, I suspect that this majority could not give a toss about whether or not the Dragons 'return to Kogarah'.
However, it does seem that a vocal minority are creating an issue that has the potential to destabalise the Dragons. Not only is this something that a true Dragons fan would not do, it is also something that a true Dragons fan cannot condone!
Sure, we all have fond memories of the Dragons playing at Kogarah, &amp; maybe the St.George district would stand to gain something from the return of the Dragons, but lets put things in perspective a little. What's in it for the Dragons?
The facilities at Kogarah are not up to scratch - there is insufficient parking, there are no lights, there is insufficient seating, etc. etc. Resolving these issues will not be easy either because as I understand it, local residents &amp; council are opposed to further development of Kogarah Oval.
Until such time as these issues are resolved, there is no point harassing the Dragons Administration to move back to Kogarah. The only thing this will achieve is to distract the Dragons Admin team from the task at hand - running a footy club. This cannot be good for the Dragons.
If we are all objective &amp; honest with ourselves about this, the best thing from a results perspective would be for all home games to be played at Woollongong - the Dragons have an imposing record playing there. But the Admin team also recognise that this would not necessarily be the best decision from a financial perspective - Sydney based fans should not be excluded. So the current arrangement may not please everybody, but is the best possible compromise as I see it.
If the R2K committee wants to do something constructive, it should leave the Dragons alone. Let them get on with playing footy. Turn your attention instead towards getting local residents, &amp; local council onside, &amp; raising funds to construct an eastern grandstand &amp; install lights &amp; extended parking at Kogarah. To try to offload these responsibilities upon the Dragons Admin team is a cop out!
If you can do this, you effectively remove any barriers to the Dragons returning to Kogarah, &amp; this would be an achievement that ALL true Dragons fans would applaude! Its just like in the movie, "a field of dreams" - if you build it, they will come.
So in closing, either give it up, accept that times have changed &amp; get on with SUPPORTING the Dragons, or alternatively, start doing something beneficial &amp; constructive FOR the Dragons rather than inciting feelings against them.</span>

 

[Willow]

<span><span>Inverted63: "Not only is this something that a true Dragons fan would not do, it is also something that a true Dragons fan cannot condone! "</span>
Since when did you decide what it is to be a true Dragons fan?
Being a Dragons fans for 15 years (as you say) or 36 years (as I am) doesnt make either of us anymore qualified to decide what constitutes a true fan.
Sorrry, but I dont think you have a true grasp on the overall issues that are taking place. You seem to be very decided in your view for someone who knows jack all about the facts. Buts thats OK, each to their own I say and I'm happy to debate this with anyone.
You make a good point that at the end of the day, it doesnt really matter where they play as long as we have a team to support. I dont live in Sydney anymore and if anything, my support for Saints has grown. But I do know the facts when it comes to Kogarah.
I do know that other teams hate playing there and I do know no other home ground has been more successful for ANY team as Kogarah Jubilee has been for Saints. They rarely lost there and once had a winning streak which lasted almost 13 years. Players come and go but the ground remains constant.
Every one of the issues you have raised, such as parking, lighting, capacity, local council and local residents are not only over-stated by the opponents to Jubilee but are also all easily addressed. It is fact that just as many councillors and local politicians are behind a return to Kogarah as are against it. It is also a fact that the local residents issue is no longer considered a problem because of the very small number of detractors.
The capacity one makes me laugh. I saw 12,000 people at the SFS on Sunday and the place looked hollow. I have seen the same number of people at Kogarah and the atmosphere was tremendous. Kogarah can hold 20,000 people, make no mistake about that. With an Eastern Grandstand, it can hold 20,000 in comfort.
Dont get me wrong, the SFS is beaut venue but its look bad when there are less than 15,000 people there.
I assume that you were an Illawarra supporter before you became a 'Dragons' supporter. My apologies if I misread this but even so, it dosent matter to me. But you should know that one of the side issues which the R2K people have raised regards the club history. Most Illawarra people I have spoken to thought they were gaining all the wonderful history of St George when they went along with the joint venture. Not so...according to the club news and NRL stats, we have no history prior to 1999. We have no premierships. R2K propose that the complete history is observed. You see, this and many other issues are interwoven with the Kogarah Jubille debate. Its not just a home ground issue anymore.
Also, you make several references about the need to recognise that <span>times have changed </span>and that the club administration is having to put up with the distraction of R2K. With respect, this is a very simple view of things.
The Footy Club CEO, Robert Stone may not see eye to eye with everything that R2K have to say but he is man who loves Kogarah as much as any of us. Last Saturday, while watching a soccer game there , I couldnt help but notice how immaculate the ground was. Its a fact that we have Robert Stone to thank for this. He told me how there are a number of logistical problems regarding Kogarah but he also said he would like to see a way through so we could play there again. Now far from feeling harrassed by the R2K issues, Robert Stone comes across as someone who invites such interaction. Afterall, without debate, we would have a very weak situation indeed.
Robert Stone is a bloke who I have a lot of time for and someone who doesnt look like he is used to taking backward steps.
And by the way, the money issue, the Eastern Grand stand and 'doing something constructive' is very much on the R2K agenda. As is a local alternative to Kogarah Jubilee. It was the club that proposed Barton Park as an alternative and the R2K people got right behind that. It was neither parties' fault that this fell through.
The object of the debate to make sure that the club will also support anyone who shows the initiative to get us back to St George on a 50/50 basis. Maybe comprehending this is a big ask but as I can see its a true step forward and not something which makes me any less a true supporter.</span>

 

[thekellygang]

How's this for a winning record?
At Kogarah Oval we didn't lose a game for 12 years. I think we should all just take a minute of time to think about the significance of that.
PS I am always suspicious of those who start branding others as "not true supporters'. As if it's your role in life to say who can and cant be a supporter. As if.

 

[imported_T.B]

Willow thanks for the excellent reply to the club-stoogish effort of inverted 63 – BTW welcome to the forum as of today, I hope you come to see that R2K is not trying to harm the club – quite the opposite. I am a strong supporter of R2K as to me the team is not just the Dragons but the St.George-Illawarra Dragons. I fully believe in an even split between the two regions for both the sakes of the respective comminutes and the fairness of the merger. The link to St.George is why I support them, for the combination of history, tradition and location that that team represents. Surely the history and traditions of a club constitute why people support them, and why St.George Illawarra fans are as passionate as they are. I believe that R2K just wants to see these traditions preserved lest the team become ‘just another club’. Surely if all we wanted was to support a team with no specific local connection or history, just for the victories, we could amuse ourselves by supporting the favorites in each year - but we all know our connection to the team runs deeper than that. R2K, while undoubtedly wanting the team to be successful, doesn’t want this to be lost. The reason why R2K is running for the election is that as individuals, outside of the club, we fans have very little influence on the obstacles that stand in the way of returning to Kogarah. If R2K truly believed that the club was doing all in its power to return us there I’m sure that they would have been happy to not spend hours and effort campaigning the council, media, club and fans, and finally organising the info night and election campaign out of their own pockets. However, comments like Peter Doust’s in today’s Mercury suggest that the club had already decided that Kogarah Oval is not an option and as such their reported ‘task-force’ with the council would be doomed to failure before it had even begun. R2K is fighting to ensure that every such opportunity to return to our heartland is considered, and the only way to ensure this was to give themselves a chance to get on the Leagues club board. inverted63, I hope you check out the R2K site (www.r2k.info), and try and understand why they are doing what they are doing. R2K truly do want what is best for St.George Illawarra and you would be hard pressed to find people who love the team more. T.B

 

[Willow]

Thanks TB. Were you at the information night last Saturday?

Lets not get stuck into inverted63, which btw is an interesting name in itself? How did you come with that name i63?
Anyway, its important that we get the other side if the coin at all times, if only to keep this debate vibrant. Its good to see.

This is the article from the todays Illwarra Mercury:

<h2>Dragons stick with Aussie Stadium </h2> <h3></h3> <h4>By PAUL SUTTOR </h4> St George Illawarra boss Peter Doust yesterday reinforced the club's tenure at Aussie Stadium despite traffic problems and the campaign to get the Dragons back to Kogarah Oval. A crowd of just 12,470 turned up to last Sunday's match at Aussie Stadium, which was nearly 3000 fans fewer than last year's clash with the Sharks at the same venue. After the full-time siren, supporters were stuck in a traffic jam trying to get out of the Moore Park area. Doust has spoken to Sydney Cricket Ground Trust management officials, who said the congestion was caused by an accident outside the stadium as well as the large number of cars heading back and forth from the eastern beaches. The Dragons chief executive said the weekend's traffic problems were out of the club's control and was confident it would not be an ongoing dilemma. ``It wasn't a real positive situation considering there has been a lot of conjecture about Aussie Stadium,'' he said. ``With all that was going on, it would've been better to have had a Swans game next door, given the weather conditions. ``I was disappointed (with the attendance).'' Doust said the Return to Kogarah group was not looking at the big picture in its campaign to force the Dragons back to their former home ground. ``St George Leagues Club, St George Football Club and the St George Illawarra Dragons are unified in their desire to play rugby league in the St George area if there was an appropriate venue,'' he said. ``Kogarah Oval has too many negatives in respect to lights, parking, team facilities both home and away, warm-up facilities, corporate facilities, media facilities, to name just a few, to enable us to feel as though it's the right way to be going for a club that sees itself as a frontrunner both on and off the field.'' Doust said some of the R2K group's proposals were ``illogical'' or `inappropriate'' and believed they were suited to a particular type of fan rather than the broad range of supporters at the club. Along with fellow Dragons official Robert Stone, Doust will be part of a task force set up to look at the long-term options for Kogarah Oval. Kogarah Mayor Jim Taylor and council general manager Gary Sawyer plus members of the leagues club will also be on the committee. ``People are using Kogarah Oval for political purposes,'' Doust said. ``We want to seriously look at the options, examining the issues as far as maintenance of the community asset goes, to crystallise the real options for the future.'' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the very least, its good to see the debate rolling along.

 

[imported_T.B]

Yep, you might have seen me as the dude handing the cheque to the Lions Club.

Just one more day of campaigning and we'll find out whether Kogarah has a chance...

T.B

 

[inverted63]

Hi again

A little more for you to consider...

Willow &amp; Thekellygang -
It was not my intention to define what constitutes a true Dragons fan. I am sure we all qualify on that front. What I was trying to communicate was that as true Dragons fans, none of us should be doing things which have the potential to be damaging to our club. On this I am sure we all agree.

Where we disagree is whether or not lobbying the Dragons to return to Kogarah falls into this category.

I concede that I may not have a grasp on all of the issues - I am not as close to it as you obviously are. However, that is why I felt compelled to comment in the first place. Sometimes when you are that close to an issue, &amp; that passionate about it, you become consumed by your own perspective &amp; develop tunnell vision. You would do well to recognise that there are other perspectives on this issue, &amp; that they are just as valid as your own, maybe even more so. I believe a little less passion &amp; a lot more objectivity would actually help R2K's cause.

I'm sorry, but your argument about the Dragons record at Kogarah just doesnt hold water for me. Im not disputing their success at this venue, butyou seem to be concluding that a return to Kogarah will translate into future on-field success for the Dragons. Theirrecord at Kogarahis largelybased upon their winning run of 11 straight premierships in the 60s &amp; 70s. The Dragons also played &amp; won a heap of games at the Sydney Sports Ground &amp; Sydney Cricket ground back then. This doesn't seem to help them win games at the Sydney Football Stadium nowadays. If your motivation is to have the Dragons play where they have an advantage, you should be in favour of 100% of their games being played out of Woollongong - opposition teams hate playing there also!

The core issues of parking, lighting, capacity, local council and local residents HAVE to be addressed by R2K (not by the Dragons) if you are to have any chance of success. I agree that 12,000 in a small venue like Kogarah does have a better atmosphere - but that's not the point. The point is that the venue needs to be capable of holding 20-25000 to make it viable for the Dragons to return there. With an Eastern Grandstand, it can hold 20,000 in comfort you say? Fine - make it happen. Just dont harrangue the Dragons about it until it exists.

Your assumtion about me being ex-Illawarra is off the mark, but thats OK.

I accept that you &amp; Robert Stone &amp; probably several hundred others would like to see the Dragons at Kogarah again. If I am honest, I probably would too.But the Dragons should be free to make their own decisions about where they play - if Kogarah is the best option, they will come back willingly. They should not be dragged back under sufference due to public pressure. This will not produce a beneficial outcome for anybody.

T.B. -

The history &amp; traditions of a club cannot be changed just because they play at another ground. I respect that the link to St. George is the reason why you support the Dragons. But to conclude from thisthat "the history and traditions of a club constitute why people support them" is not only wrong, but indicates the lack of objectivity I spoke of earlier. Different people support the Dragons for a whole range of different reasons, &amp; this needs to recognised &amp; respected also. Many of the current fans may not even be aware of the Dragons glorious history.

I am sure the club is not doing all in its power to return to Kogarah, asIt would not make good business sense to do so at the moment.The Executives responsible for sound management of the club would be quite rightly criticised if they did undertake such a move at this time, &amp; may even be legally accountable if such a move adversely impacted upon the viability of the club. Peter Doust's comments in the Mercury reflect this thinking &amp; this responsibility for sound management. What R2K have to do is not lobby the Dragons, but work independentlyto make Kogarah a viable alternative. Who knows, maybe then the Dragons will come on board &amp; you can all pull in the same direction.

Willow -

Thanks, finally some objectivity!

It also occured to me that your comment "Lets not get stuck into inverted63" is in itself an interesting metaphor for the R2K vs Dragons Dillema - You are quite right, getting stuck into me just because I have an opinion different to your own is not going to achieve anything.....nor is getting stuck into the Dragons!

Catchya.

i63

 

[imported_T.B]

Inverted63, I am heading back to the Leagues Club so will try to make this as brief as possible: 1) To deny Kogarahs track record as giving a home ground advantage could equally apply to WIN. ie YOU seem to be concluding that playing all at to WIN will translate into future on-field success for the Dragons. And further to this point – if success doesn’t follow at WIN would you be supportive of a permanent relocation from there to a ground where they have had more recent success eg Leichardt? 2) I really don’t see how R2K as supporters are supposed to ensure the fixing of the local issues. As much as we might like R2K does not have the power that the club or the council does. This leads to the next point: 3) R2K is NOT cureently bothering the club of your concern (ie St.George-Illawarra), apart from them wanting to honor their ‘supposed’ joint venture agreement to play in both regions. They have had discussions with them in the past and realise that they need to help get plans to improve the ground before further discussion. The whole thrust of your argument seems to stem from this misconception. R2K realises that alone they do not have power hence have been petitioning Council and the St.George football club. In addition they realise that St.George Illawara is into software not hardware and are hardly in any financial situation to help out. Hence R2K is running for the board of the St.George leagues club – still quite separate from the football club – as with the power of the Leagues club they will have a platform to negotiate with the council/business etc . Once they have a legitimate business plan for the improval of Jubilee, talks with St.George Illawarra may commence. 4) Finally, considering that R2K is having NO current formal involvement with St.George Illawarra, and that the club as publicly stated that they DO want to play in the St.George area (despite what you believe):

1. Why is Peter Doust, talking in the role of Dragons CEO, taking issue with R2K, and seemingly spending so much time dealing with the issue?
2. Why have the club refused to have members of R2K help in their task force with council?
3. Why is Robert Stone, CEO of St.George Football (in business hours) handing out Leagues Club how to vote cards (despite urging R2K and the club &amp; council to work together) rather than helping the Jubilee situation?
4. Why have the St.George Illwarra players been forced to come to the club and vote against R2K?

And before I forget - I do think that the history and traditionare what the attraction to a football club is. Everything else: victories, players, fans, management, comes and goes but history and traditions endure. I could be wrong, perhaps if the club has decided to not play at Kogarah (St.George) then they should admit as such and stop pretending – ie drop the red vee (no, they weren’t the first in the district), drop the St.George name and emblem. Then they should consider how ‘disadvantageous’ ‘business sensible’ or ‘adversely impacting’ it is to play away/distance themselves from St.George. T.B

 

[Willow]

Inverted63:
"It was not my intention to define what constitutes a true Dragons fan. "
I beg to differ. I expect that this was exactly what you were trying to do. You were clearly drawing a parrallel with supporters of Kogarah Jubilee andpeople who wish to destabilise the club.
Personally, I take exception to any suggestion that I any less a supporter simply because I want to see us return to playing in the St George district.
Still, ifyou were choking on an apology then no worries... consider it accepted..

"I am not as close to it as you obviously are. However, that is why I felt compelled to comment in the first place. Sometimes when you are that close to an issue, &amp; that passionate about it, you become consumed by your own perspective &amp; develop tunnell vision."
So this is why you feel compelled to comment? Because you feel that supporters of a 50% return to St George are too close to the issues and are therefore deluding themselves? Sorry, but this is a pretty shaky comeback.
Am I to assume that the club administration is also guilty of tunnel vision? Afterall they are as close to this as anyone.
For the record, I first took in an interest in the Kogarah issue after I moved to the Gold Coast about 4 years back. This being shortly after the club renigged on its committment to play 50% of the games at Jubilee. I have been able to watch things develop from afar. Havingsaid this, I dont feel any more qualified. Indeed, I feel the best people to ask are those in the thick of it. In this I include R2K as well as the St George Leagues Club.

"I'm sorry, but your argument about the Dragons record at Kogarah just doesnt hold water for me. "
Thats fine but you should know that throughout the ENTIRE history of the club, the team has always performed well when they have a stable home ground in the St George area. Not just Kogarah but also Earl Park and Hurstville Oval. The club's worst patches were when they had home ground problems in St George. This may mean nothing to some but I think there's something to take on board from this lesson of history.
Like any supporter, I want to see my team win. I want to see them have every possible advantage at their disposal....including a home ground in St George.

"The core issues of parking, lighting, capacity, local council and local residents HAVE to be addressed by R2K (not by the Dragons) if you are to have any chance of success. "
I agree and I understand they are very high on the R2K agenda.

"With an Eastern Grandstand, it can hold 20,000 in comfort you say? Fine - make it happen. Just dont harrangue the Dragons about it until it exists."
People who know about this have been talking to the club about an Eastern Grandstand since last year. I know it discussed briefly again last Saturday.
You really should drop this idea that the club is being 'harrangued' by people all the time. Sure, a few are getting impatient and they cant be blamed for that but I'll think find for the most part this is being discussed in a very professional manner.

"the Dragons should be free to make their own decisions about where they play - if Kogarah is the best option, they will come back willingly. They should not be dragged back under sufference due to public pressure. "
Ok, by saying that it is public pressure, you are suggesting that a lot of people want to see a return to Kogarah. Before, you said it was a vocal minority. So which is it?
And whats wrong with change happening through the efforts of the public? Isnt it the public who suppoort the team?
By saying the Dragons should be left alone to make their own decisions you are suggesting that the fans should butt out?
IMO, the St George Illawarra Dragons = players, supporters, club. Not just club.
This is as much an issue on who runs the club as it is a home ground issue. Never assume that the accountants always know whats best for business.

"Many of the current fans may not even be aware of the Dragons glorious history."
This is terrible realisation. Its become apparent that new Saints' fans are being denied the facts. We may very well be seeing a new generation of supporters who are led into the belief that we have zero premierships. I know you said this to support your argument but in reality it strongly supports everything that R2K stands for.

"The Executives responsible for sound management of the club would be quite rightly criticised if they did undertake such a move at this time, &amp; may even be legally accountable"
Please clarify.
How do know they would be criticised? And by who?
What is particular about undertaking a move at this time?
In what way would they be legally accountable?

"Peter Doust's comments in the Mercury reflect this thinking &amp; this responsibility for sound management"
No one is suggesting that Peter Doust is a bad financial manager. I have a lot of respect for him and at the very least he has always taken the time to listen and respond.
I think we should remember though that financial issues should not the be the only consideration.

"You are quite right, getting stuck into me just because I have an opinion different to your own is not going to achieve anything.....nor is getting stuck into the Dragons!"
Thankyou. The bottom line with me will always be that we should keep the debate flowing. If this means ruffling a few feathers then so be it. Butif we just go along blindly with everything we are told then the club is dead in the water...it will stagnate and slowly shrivel up as apathy takes over.

Surely we cant let that happen.

 

[inverted63]

My last word on this matter T.B –

1. The difference with WIN (and the SFS for that matter) is that the Dragons and the NRL are happy with the venue – that’s why they play there. As I have said before, I couldn’t give a bugger if the Dragons choose to play all their games at Bourke – I’ll still support them. Sure I would prefer them to have a stable home base where they have an advantage, and if that happens to be in the St George district, then great! But not JUST an on-field advantage - that’s not enough nowadays. The venue also need to provide an advantage in terms of capacity, convenience, flexibility, services, cost, profitability and safety, for players and fans alike. Kogarah just doesn’t cut it at the moment. If it did, the Dragons would play there too.
2. I am pleased that you "don’t see how R2K as supporters are supposed to ensure the fixing of the local issues" This pleases me because it means that you are a step down the path towards seeing things from the Dragons perspective. They can’t see how they are supposed to solve these issues either! Neither the club, nor the council have any special powers to solve these problems. However, for R2K to burden the club with this issue is to my mind unfair.
3. You may not consider that R2K is bothering the Dragons, but I wonder if Doust shares this view. Go back and re-read the Doust interview, and tell me if you don’t think that he sounds like he is being unnecessarily bothered. Rallies, protests, lobbying, petitioning and unwanted media attention are all having an impact on the club. This may not be the conscious intention of R2K, but don’t you think it is a possible repercussion? No other club in the comp is having to deal with these issues. You don’t need to have entered into formal dealings to have an adverse effect.
4. I have never said that I believed that the club doesn’t want to play in the St George area. What I said was that if suitable facilities were there, they would LOVE to come back, and I would LOVE to see them back there – if you build it, they will come… remember? Problem is, the facilities are not suitable at the moment.

Regarding your sub-questions, I suspect that the answer to all these questions lies in the fact that through its activities R2K has, intentionally or unintentionally, made itself an opponent of the football club. Doust, Stone, the board, the players et.al. are all paid employees of the club. If the club feel besieged, they will side with the club every time. Wouldn’t it be better to adopt an approach where R2K could work with these guys, rather than make them feel cornered and ready to fight? In your last paragraph, I agree with you about the history and tradition. The name and the red V are important because it is symbolic of the origins of the club. But this isn’t erased just because the club no longer plays at a particular park, or in a particular suburb. An addition to your list of things that come and go – home grounds. Willow – Maybe you are trying to manufacture a reason to dislike me or something, I don’t know. I have already clarified this statement and don’t appreciate being told what I think. I was not "clearly drawing a parallel with supporters of Kogarah Jubilee and people who wish to destabilise the club." Of course it is possible to support Kogarah without adversely effecting the club. I take issue with those that doggedly pursue their own agenda, without contemplating the possible adverse implications for their club. A hypothetical for you - If a fan knowingly pursues an action which ultimately proves to be detrimental to their club of choice, can they still be perceived to be a supporter? As I said before, it was not my intention to offend anybody, however if offence has occurred through misinterpretation of my comments then I apologise whole heartedly. Of course it could be possible that Shakespeare had it right when he said ‘methinks Willow protesteth too much’. If this shoe fits, it may be a little hard to wear. Of course both sides have their own agendas, and both have a degree of tunnel vision. The question that has to be answered is which side has the best interests of the club at heart. With the Dragons Admin, I think this is pretty clear cut. But I’m not convinced that R2K has looked at the strengths and weaknesses of what it is they are proposing. What opportunities does it present? What are the threats from such an approach? I’m not opposed to a 50% return to St George (you keep saying that). I am opposed to a 50% return to St George at a half-arsed facility, due to the public pressure generated by a vocal minority. I too want to see my team win. I too want to see them have EVERY POSSIBLE advantage at their disposal, not just in relation to on-field performances, but in relation to capacity, services, convenience, transport, safety, profitability and flexibility. Kogarah just doesn’t cut it at the moment, and it makes no sense to harass the Dragons about playing there til it does. You say that these negotiations are being handled in a very professional manner, and this may be so. However, from the outside looking in it appears to be a case of ‘if we can distract enough people, make enough noise and attract enough media attention to our cause, we might be successful’. This may be a misconception, but that’s how it looks, and that perception in itself is a problem. Your assertion that public pressure, implies a lot of people is dependent upon your definition of a lot of people I suppose. 500 people is probably a lot for Kogarah RSL, and there are probably that many again that support the cause and couldn’t make it. But it is a drop in the bucket compared with total numbers of Dragons fans. Public pressure can be generated by a vocal minority, and does not necessarily imply a lot of people as you assert. (SIGH) There is nothing wrong with change happening through the efforts of the public (your getting a little off track here) this is a democratic society after all. The issue is the nature of the change, and whether the majority of the public (in this case the St George Dragons fans) support it! Whilst I think that your model of 'what comprises the St George Illawarra Dragons' is a little simplistic (the NRL, Packer, Murdoch, and the networks all have a stake) I agree that it is not just the club. However, the board of the club is elected by the members to ensure proper stewardship. The Executives are employed by the board to ensure proper Management. Every fan is entitled to an opinion about whether or not the Management is doing a good job, but to risk sabotaging the club to get Management to comply with the opinion ofa vocal minority of fans is taking democratic process a little too far. New Dragons fans are not being denied the facts. No-one is burning any books! The facts are there, etched in history, and cannot be erased. Anyone who wants can pick up a book at a library, or log onto the net and read all about it. The reality is that these facts may not be relevant to many new / future fans! (shocking I know). My young son and daughter love the Dragons, but couldn’t give a toss about who Changa was or Raper, and Gasnier – well he’s that blonde guy that plays in the centres. They are just interested in who Ryles belts, and how many tries Blacklock scores. This may not align with your reality, but it is reality nonetheless. The Dragons Admin are obligated to look after the Dragons future, - the past is on record and will look after itself. Anyway, this discussion is all getting a bit tired. You folks can choose to criticise and ridicule if that makes you tick. Or, you can choose to take my comments on-board (I do know what I’m talking about) and accept that there may be other valid perspectives on this issue and potentially better solutions to the problem other than dragging the Dragons into a media scrum. Your call.

 

[The Black Prince]

Thanks for your views Peter!

 

[Willow]

I63:
I'm not trying to manufacture a dislike for you.You're sounding a tad paranoid there.
I thought we were having a rational discussion about a very serious issue. I dont think either of us want to lower the tone of the debate into competition of egos.
You'll just have to accept that we disagree on things.
Anyway, lets hope that wasnt a parting shot. I actually think you raised some good points and imo, we were approaching common ground.

Just a few points, if I may. Offcourse I know of the complexity that is the St George Illawarra Dragons and that it has many stake holders. That goes without saying. But thanks for pointing it out....I think this can be sometimes overlooked.

And yes, anyone canget hold of the history from any library or by surfing the internet. But its just that there is a tenadancy for the club to give this a low priority. Perhaps you know what I'm talking about here but if you don't, I ask you look at the official website and see how many premierships the Dragons have won. According to the club, the Dragons have won just one First Division premiership. Now this creates a false impression. I'd like to know why the history is being handled in this manner.
I find the notion that 'the past can look after itself' to be a little unsettling. It can only look after itself if its not being re-written.
Having said this, I couldnt agree more that we also have to look to the future and I'm a huge fan of Nathan Blacklock (to the point of driving fellow forummers nuts) and I can see that with some real 'stars' in the team. I'm not sure what you mean by inferring that I'm unrealistic about this.

Also (and believe me, I'm not doing your thinking for you), I think you'll agree that R2K have as much right as anyone to voice their concerns. They have gone through the proper channels and taken the issue to the board. They have stood for election to the Leagues Club board and all reports indicate that they put in a good first up showing.
No doubt, they will try again...as is their right to do so.
As I've said before, R2K want whats best for the club and are not just there to antagonise people. They have solutions and alternatives. Just because they have their detractors doesnt make theirarguments any less valid.

On a final note. I have no doubt that you 'know what youre talking about' as much as anyone does. I trust that you will be able to also take a few things on board just as you have requested others to do.

 

[imported_Noodles]

Hi All

I'm just catching up with the threads after spending some time in Mt Isa with work.

This has been a very interesting debate to read.

I cannot see why the club does not test the possibilities of playing games at Kogarah again.

The club appears to have some reservations about the ground, but they seem to be more based on opinion that anything else.

Maybe there are a large number of fans that would like to see the club back there. Maybe it is no longer viable to play games there.

The club is practically avoiding the issue, which seems very strange to me.

I'll admit that I have never been to Kogarah, but surely the facilities cannot be too far behind WIN stadium.

Why not put on a trial game there next year and see how it goes. (charity shield perhaps ?)

The club could then get a better idea of what the real problems are. They could then get a better idea on whether a return is viable.

At the end of it all the club and R2K could see all the facts about where the ground needs immdeiate improvements, how the fans liked it etc

Obviously if the Charity Shield doesn't get 36,000 people and live TV coverage like at the SFS (the club's preference) then call the whole thing off.

Nahh, just joking

 

[Willow]

I'd like to see one gameat Kogarah next year. I think this is a fair compromise.
I know a number of R2K dont beleive its enough (50% is their aim) and I get the impression that the club thinks its pointless playing even one game there.

But one of the speakers from the audience (Gorilla it was) made the suggestion that we have one game there as a 'first step'. Pointing out that the first step is often the most difficult.

One game there would give both sides an opportunity to bury the hatchet and discuss the advantages and / or short comings of Kogarah.

 

[The Black Prince]

There was a lot of talk coming out of the club about a possibility of two games at Kogarah this year. the first up Cronulla game and then a game later in the season against a Sydney rival like the Tigers where a big corwd might not be as expected.

No idea why the proposal fell through in the end. Surely a game such as the Eagles clash which is set down for the SFS would be a more viable option at Kogarah than there.

 

[Stalin]

I'm a little perplexed by i63's statement.
i63 seems to think that supporters pushing for THEIR team, the team that lives and dies by the support THEY show, to have the team returned to Kogarah are unreasonable and have no right to do so.
Is this correct i63? Do you believe that fans should not be allowed to have a say as to where their team plays?
Maybe i63 should be the one posting under the 'Stalin' psuedonym.