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A Question of Balance

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,925
Looking at our team / squad over the last few years I have come to the conclusion that we are terribly unbalanced and due to stupid decisions we remain that way and never progress.

FB : We had kick return ability with no attack and exchange it for spasmodic attack with no kick return ability. Then we juggle that around by taking our best centre prospect and play him at FB and then jettison that idea because of an injury to a centre. Little rhyme or reason or positivity in what we do with FB leta alone pissing off our bets player by asking him to play there as well.

Wing : We played Nighty on the opposite wing that he perfected to allow Mc Donald to play on his wing but then swapped them back that was incredulous and neither is with the club anymore. Now we have signed 3 wingers external of our club with little NRL experience and we are chopping and changing them and refused to bring through Saab who has the most potential of all.

Centres : We continue with Aitken and after 3 years and only due to an injury do we actually play him on his correct left side and no doubt when Lafai (slowest centre in memory) returns Aitken will go back to the right side and we will start chopping and changing Lomax & Dufty at the back as Lomax who has the most potential will be sacrificed for the "senior" player.

5/8 : Well we had a beauty but now believe he is a FB and purchased Norman which just confused the selection process early in the season and layed a bad platform for the team. In saying that I have to admit there is evidence that Norman when on his game is a real asset.

HB : Hunt is an upgrade on previous but is still to show he is the dynamic player we need on a week in week out basis. His best IMO only comes when others are playing at their best around him. Not the player that can lift the team to snatch improbable wins and who is his replacement when he is unavailable. Surely that should be settled now but is it?

13 : We lose JDB and it was evident that it would be very messy but we sit on our heels instead of being pro-active. We have had a merry go round of players in that position and even played people out of position in CC to see if we could conjure up a 13 from the lower grade. The loss of JDB has been huge and half a season in we are still f**king around with square pegs in round holes. Lawrie is no lock.

2nd row : Is Frizz an edge player or is he a middle? The more I watch him I think he is a middle. He runs hard, tackles ferociously but doesn't contribute very much to attacking raids and it is a rarity to see him put a support away for a try. His presence on the RHS was also a factor in that side being attacked with great success by other teams. Not so apparent now with Host and Lomax even allowing for Rava's lack of experience.
Host IMO is a better hole runner and is now playing a solid 80 minutes each game and we have Jackson Ford coming on behind as well,

F Row : A real conundrum for us as we refuse to really consider Timm, Blacker & Kerr and the alternates of Latimore & Allgood are just ludicrous. If we were to move Frizz to allow Host the right edge then do we play Frizz as prop or 13? Graham is running out / has run out of legs and should only be on the bench but imagine him & Lats off the bench you need a wheelchair and a commode on the sideline. Is Leilua a prop or en edge and a decision needs to be made there as well? On the edge he flounders in defence but he has done much better IMO in the middle. Now we even have games where the edge players in attack spend time in the middle defending again IMO far too much fiddling around and unbalancing the team.

Hooker : Mc Innes has been great for us and a real improvement on Rein. Trouble is 45+ tackles per game takes its toll and we lose out a bit in attack. Trouble is if he doesn't make 45+ per match who takes up the slack especially with no JDB? Robson needs to be there to give Mc Innes a rest but shifting C McI to lock and having both on the paddock doesn't avail him of a rest at all. So does Robson go to lock in the rotation and take up the extra tackling to allow Mc Innes to rest and attack from dummy half. A good coach would probably use them both at dummy half when on together to give our attack a real POD.

Bench : Well what can you say about that other than totally unbalanced every game. We have a noticeable drop in forward power (loss of JDB) and we opt for a small impact (7 minute super sub) who comes on when the forwards are busted. Now we have 1 small and a medium in Robson and we have 2 bigs out for origin. We are a team that needs forward domination to give our backs some air, so there is no point whatsoever in not picking 4 forwards 1 of which must be Robson and he gets 30 + minutes. The Latimore thing has been done to death but picking him anywhere other than CC is totally disruptive and again unbalances the team.
We had an unbalanced bench all of last year with Mann and we still didn't learn.

By all means have a couple of solid depth players but the rest need to come from within our ranks. In all honesty what has having Allgood, Nicholls & Lats for that matter done for the club other than set other players backward? How did we decide that Maranta & Runciman were worthwhile IMO just a repeat of oft made mistakes in recruitment regardless of whether they are in our top 32 or not.

To get a balanced team we need to be ruthless and get specialist players for each position and stop being fanatical about "utility" & "depth".

IMO time to trade out Aitken, shift Frizz to the middle, dispense with Lats, Nicholls & Allgood. Make a decision on LL either prop or trade him, pick Kerr and if he doesn't cut it trade him and in the mean time get some game time into the other young props we before we go of buying another Graham or Latimore. Saab into the squad now and gets the next chance at a wing spot if Rava or Pearson don't cut it. Field is either the heir apparent to Hunt or is not if so he plays half in the lower grades or you trade him. Same with Dufty he is either the FB or he is not so pick him or trade him stop dicking around with keeping them on the books and offering them as the excuses when it all turns to shit.

Anyway hopefully some others have some opinions on the matter and I'll make sure I don't fall of the edge of my chair reading all the other balanced points of view.
 

hazzbeen

Bench
Messages
4,617
Old timer you have covered it well , no matter how hard we the supporters try to figure out this mess the team is in , nothing will change until outside influence happens ...... All coaches within need to be cleaned out , the once Mighty St George is just a shadow of the team it once was ..... We are wasting years if we think a Premiership is happening under our current so called coach .......
 

BLM01

First Grade
Messages
6,667
Looking at our team / squad over the last few years I have come to the conclusion that we are terribly unbalanced and due to stupid decisions we remain that way and never progress.

FB : We had kick return ability with no attack and exchange it for spasmodic attack with no kick return ability. Then we juggle that around by taking our best centre prospect and play him at FB and then jettison that idea because of an injury to a centre. Little rhyme or reason or positivity in what we do with FB leta alone pissing off our bets player by asking him to play there as well.

Wing : We played Nighty on the opposite wing that he perfected to allow Mc Donald to play on his wing but then swapped them back that was incredulous and neither is with the club anymore. Now we have signed 3 wingers external of our club with little NRL experience and we are chopping and changing them and refused to bring through Saab who has the most potential of all.

Centres : We continue with Aitken and after 3 years and only due to an injury do we actually play him on his correct left side and no doubt when Lafai (slowest centre in memory) returns Aitken will go back to the right side and we will start chopping and changing Lomax & Dufty at the back as Lomax who has the most potential will be sacrificed for the "senior" player.

5/8 : Well we had a beauty but now believe he is a FB and purchased Norman which just confused the selection process early in the season and layed a bad platform for the team. In saying that I have to admit there is evidence that Norman when on his game is a real asset.

HB : Hunt is an upgrade on previous but is still to show he is the dynamic player we need on a week in week out basis. His best IMO only comes when others are playing at their best around him. Not the player that can lift the team to snatch improbable wins and who is his replacement when he is unavailable. Surely that should be settled now but is it?

13 : We lose JDB and it was evident that it would be very messy but we sit on our heels instead of being pro-active. We have had a merry go round of players in that position and even played people out of position in CC to see if we could conjure up a 13 from the lower grade. The loss of JDB has been huge and half a season in we are still f**king around with square pegs in round holes. Lawrie is no lock.

2nd row : Is Frizz an edge player or is he a middle? The more I watch him I think he is a middle. He runs hard, tackles ferociously but doesn't contribute very much to attacking raids and it is a rarity to see him put a support away for a try. His presence on the RHS was also a factor in that side being attacked with great success by other teams. Not so apparent now with Host and Lomax even allowing for Rava's lack of experience.
Host IMO is a better hole runner and is now playing a solid 80 minutes each game and we have Jackson Ford coming on behind as well,

F Row : A real conundrum for us as we refuse to really consider Timm, Blacker & Kerr and the alternates of Latimore & Allgood are just ludicrous. If we were to move Frizz to allow Host the right edge then do we play Frizz as prop or 13? Graham is running out / has run out of legs and should only be on the bench but imagine him & Lats off the bench you need a wheelchair and a commode on the sideline. Is Leilua a prop or en edge and a decision needs to be made there as well? On the edge he flounders in defence but he has done much better IMO in the middle. Now we even have games where the edge players in attack spend time in the middle defending again IMO far too much fiddling around and unbalancing the team.

Hooker : Mc Innes has been great for us and a real improvement on Rein. Trouble is 45+ tackles per game takes its toll and we lose out a bit in attack. Trouble is if he doesn't make 45+ per match who takes up the slack especially with no JDB? Robson needs to be there to give Mc Innes a rest but shifting C McI to lock and having both on the paddock doesn't avail him of a rest at all. So does Robson go to lock in the rotation and take up the extra tackling to allow Mc Innes to rest and attack from dummy half. A good coach would probably use them both at dummy half when on together to give our attack a real POD.

Bench : Well what can you say about that other than totally unbalanced every game. We have a noticeable drop in forward power (loss of JDB) and we opt for a small impact (7 minute super sub) who comes on when the forwards are busted. Now we have 1 small and a medium in Robson and we have 2 bigs out for origin. We are a team that needs forward domination to give our backs some air, so there is no point whatsoever in not picking 4 forwards 1 of which must be Robson and he gets 30 + minutes. The Latimore thing has been done to death but picking him anywhere other than CC is totally disruptive and again unbalances the team.
We had an unbalanced bench all of last year with Mann and we still didn't learn.

By all means have a couple of solid depth players but the rest need to come from within our ranks. In all honesty what has having Allgood, Nicholls & Lats for that matter done for the club other than set other players backward? How did we decide that Maranta & Runciman were worthwhile IMO just a repeat of oft made mistakes in recruitment regardless of whether they are in our top 32 or not.

To get a balanced team we need to be ruthless and get specialist players for each position and stop being fanatical about "utility" & "depth".

IMO time to trade out Aitken, shift Frizz to the middle, dispense with Lats, Nicholls & Allgood. Make a decision on LL either prop or trade him, pick Kerr and if he doesn't cut it trade him and in the mean time get some game time into the other young props we before we go of buying another Graham or Latimore. Saab into the squad now and gets the next chance at a wing spot if Rava or Pearson don't cut it. Field is either the heir apparent to Hunt or is not if so he plays half in the lower grades or you trade him. Same with Dufty he is either the FB or he is not so pick him or trade him stop dicking around with keeping them on the books and offering them as the excuses when it all turns to shit.

Anyway hopefully some others have some opinions on the matter and I'll make sure I don't fall of the edge of my chair reading all the other balanced points of view.
OT make some good points but re;
FB: Lomax will be centre from now on. Dugan was on too much money. Just ask the Sharks. You dont like Dufty get that..he has improved slightly I noticed last week in defense with his shoulder but I said I would judge after this year. I am not writing him off yet!
WING: Nightingale retired staying a year too long not left and played 1/2 a season in the forwards. We now have got wingers that are better and Nene I have said on countless occassions lumbered around too much. I think by season end our wingers will overall on balance be better than last year.
Debatable if SAAB is ready for 1st grade, but will get his chance if current crop cant perform later in year
CENTRE: Mark my words Lomax will stay right centre. The rest toss a coin
5/8Th & HB: Going Ok ATM. Need forwards to fire and backs to back up to shine
13 - We now may of finally worked it out
2nd row. Agree and disagree. Frizz is an edge player and can be coached to look for offloads when gets through the line. He was doing it a couple of years ago. Too injury prone for middle
PROPS - agree. Mary cant frickin work it out or see how we defend and our sets get started down our end. Feel sorry for Vaughan. Both Frizz and Vaughan have offloads in them. Coach too conservative, Dragons need more 2nd phase
9 - Agree copy and paste to Mary's inbox. McInnes is a VG player
BENCH - Nail on head and I have given up there. Signings for reserve grade are just that and all we could afford. They were on 1 year contracts or Maranta 2?..so what. We have other depth coming through to cover. I think the depth is there but our coaches cant get them or are too conservative to give them some time..so there in lies your whole problem and answer to your debate.
 

possm

Coach
Messages
14,040
Old timer you have covered it well , no matter how hard we the supporters try to figure out this mess the team is in , nothing will change until outside influence happens ...... All coaches within need to be cleaned out , the once Mighty St George is just a shadow of the team it once was ..... We are wasting years if we think a Premiership is happening under our current so called coach .......
You are right and there is no better time to start the clean out than now. SGI is cashed up and has no debt and our partner WIN has deep pockets. Now it is time to act. Someone on the Board please grow a set and make the call!
 
Messages
390
During Mary's tenure it's only the outside backs that have been unbalanced. Aside from that the squad has been pretty balanced and an above-average coach would see the squad finish Top 4 in 2018 or 2019.

Bad coaching and (this year) injuries have caused the side to be substantially unbalanced.
 

Drakon

Juniors
Messages
1,062
Looking at our team / squad over the last few years I have come to the conclusion that we are terribly unbalanced and due to stupid decisions we remain that way and never progress.

FB : We had kick return ability with no attack and exchange it for spasmodic attack with no kick return ability. Then we juggle that around by taking our best centre prospect and play him at FB and then jettison that idea because of an injury to a centre. Little rhyme or reason or positivity in what we do with FB leta alone pissing off our bets player by asking him to play there as well.

Wing : We played Nighty on the opposite wing that he perfected to allow Mc Donald to play on his wing but then swapped them back that was incredulous and neither is with the club anymore. Now we have signed 3 wingers external of our club with little NRL experience and we are chopping and changing them and refused to bring through Saab who has the most potential of all.

Centres : We continue with Aitken and after 3 years and only due to an injury do we actually play him on his correct left side and no doubt when Lafai (slowest centre in memory) returns Aitken will go back to the right side and we will start chopping and changing Lomax & Dufty at the back as Lomax who has the most potential will be sacrificed for the "senior" player.

5/8 : Well we had a beauty but now believe he is a FB and purchased Norman which just confused the selection process early in the season and layed a bad platform for the team. In saying that I have to admit there is evidence that Norman when on his game is a real asset.

HB : Hunt is an upgrade on previous but is still to show he is the dynamic player we need on a week in week out basis. His best IMO only comes when others are playing at their best around him. Not the player that can lift the team to snatch improbable wins and who is his replacement when he is unavailable. Surely that should be settled now but is it?

13 : We lose JDB and it was evident that it would be very messy but we sit on our heels instead of being pro-active. We have had a merry go round of players in that position and even played people out of position in CC to see if we could conjure up a 13 from the lower grade. The loss of JDB has been huge and half a season in we are still f**king around with square pegs in round holes. Lawrie is no lock.

2nd row : Is Frizz an edge player or is he a middle? The more I watch him I think he is a middle. He runs hard, tackles ferociously but doesn't contribute very much to attacking raids and it is a rarity to see him put a support away for a try. His presence on the RHS was also a factor in that side being attacked with great success by other teams. Not so apparent now with Host and Lomax even allowing for Rava's lack of experience.
Host IMO is a better hole runner and is now playing a solid 80 minutes each game and we have Jackson Ford coming on behind as well,

F Row : A real conundrum for us as we refuse to really consider Timm, Blacker & Kerr and the alternates of Latimore & Allgood are just ludicrous. If we were to move Frizz to allow Host the right edge then do we play Frizz as prop or 13? Graham is running out / has run out of legs and should only be on the bench but imagine him & Lats off the bench you need a wheelchair and a commode on the sideline. Is Leilua a prop or en edge and a decision needs to be made there as well? On the edge he flounders in defence but he has done much better IMO in the middle. Now we even have games where the edge players in attack spend time in the middle defending again IMO far too much fiddling around and unbalancing the team.

Hooker : Mc Innes has been great for us and a real improvement on Rein. Trouble is 45+ tackles per game takes its toll and we lose out a bit in attack. Trouble is if he doesn't make 45+ per match who takes up the slack especially with no JDB? Robson needs to be there to give Mc Innes a rest but shifting C McI to lock and having both on the paddock doesn't avail him of a rest at all. So does Robson go to lock in the rotation and take up the extra tackling to allow Mc Innes to rest and attack from dummy half. A good coach would probably use them both at dummy half when on together to give our attack a real POD.

Bench : Well what can you say about that other than totally unbalanced every game. We have a noticeable drop in forward power (loss of JDB) and we opt for a small impact (7 minute super sub) who comes on when the forwards are busted. Now we have 1 small and a medium in Robson and we have 2 bigs out for origin. We are a team that needs forward domination to give our backs some air, so there is no point whatsoever in not picking 4 forwards 1 of which must be Robson and he gets 30 + minutes. The Latimore thing has been done to death but picking him anywhere other than CC is totally disruptive and again unbalances the team.
We had an unbalanced bench all of last year with Mann and we still didn't learn.

By all means have a couple of solid depth players but the rest need to come from within our ranks. In all honesty what has having Allgood, Nicholls & Lats for that matter done for the club other than set other players backward? How did we decide that Maranta & Runciman were worthwhile IMO just a repeat of oft made mistakes in recruitment regardless of whether they are in our top 32 or not.

To get a balanced team we need to be ruthless and get specialist players for each position and stop being fanatical about "utility" & "depth".

IMO time to trade out Aitken, shift Frizz to the middle, dispense with Lats, Nicholls & Allgood. Make a decision on LL either prop or trade him, pick Kerr and if he doesn't cut it trade him and in the mean time get some game time into the other young props we before we go of buying another Graham or Latimore. Saab into the squad now and gets the next chance at a wing spot if Rava or Pearson don't cut it. Field is either the heir apparent to Hunt or is not if so he plays half in the lower grades or you trade him. Same with Dufty he is either the FB or he is not so pick him or trade him stop dicking around with keeping them on the books and offering them as the excuses when it all turns to shit.

Anyway hopefully some others have some opinions on the matter and I'll make sure I don't fall of the edge of my chair reading all the other balanced points of view.
So all opinions other than yours - you will have to stop yourself falling off your chair......
 
Messages
2,866
Looking at our team / squad over the last few years I have come to the conclusion that we are terribly unbalanced and due to stupid decisions we remain that way and never progress.

FB : We had kick return ability with no attack and exchange it for spasmodic attack with no kick return ability. Then we juggle that around by taking our best centre prospect and play him at FB and then jettison that idea because of an injury to a centre. Little rhyme or reason or positivity in what we do with FB leta alone pissing off our bets player by asking him to play there as well.

Wing : We played Nighty on the opposite wing that he perfected to allow Mc Donald to play on his wing but then swapped them back that was incredulous and neither is with the club anymore. Now we have signed 3 wingers external of our club with little NRL experience and we are chopping and changing them and refused to bring through Saab who has the most potential of all.

Centres : We continue with Aitken and after 3 years and only due to an injury do we actually play him on his correct left side and no doubt when Lafai (slowest centre in memory) returns Aitken will go back to the right side and we will start chopping and changing Lomax & Dufty at the back as Lomax who has the most potential will be sacrificed for the "senior" player.

5/8 : Well we had a beauty but now believe he is a FB and purchased Norman which just confused the selection process early in the season and layed a bad platform for the team. In saying that I have to admit there is evidence that Norman when on his game is a real asset.

HB : Hunt is an upgrade on previous but is still to show he is the dynamic player we need on a week in week out basis. His best IMO only comes when others are playing at their best around him. Not the player that can lift the team to snatch improbable wins and who is his replacement when he is unavailable. Surely that should be settled now but is it?

13 : We lose JDB and it was evident that it would be very messy but we sit on our heels instead of being pro-active. We have had a merry go round of players in that position and even played people out of position in CC to see if we could conjure up a 13 from the lower grade. The loss of JDB has been huge and half a season in we are still f**king around with square pegs in round holes. Lawrie is no lock.

2nd row : Is Frizz an edge player or is he a middle? The more I watch him I think he is a middle. He runs hard, tackles ferociously but doesn't contribute very much to attacking raids and it is a rarity to see him put a support away for a try. His presence on the RHS was also a factor in that side being attacked with great success by other teams. Not so apparent now with Host and Lomax even allowing for Rava's lack of experience.
Host IMO is a better hole runner and is now playing a solid 80 minutes each game and we have Jackson Ford coming on behind as well,

F Row : A real conundrum for us as we refuse to really consider Timm, Blacker & Kerr and the alternates of Latimore & Allgood are just ludicrous. If we were to move Frizz to allow Host the right edge then do we play Frizz as prop or 13? Graham is running out / has run out of legs and should only be on the bench but imagine him & Lats off the bench you need a wheelchair and a commode on the sideline. Is Leilua a prop or en edge and a decision needs to be made there as well? On the edge he flounders in defence but he has done much better IMO in the middle. Now we even have games where the edge players in attack spend time in the middle defending again IMO far too much fiddling around and unbalancing the team.

Hooker : Mc Innes has been great for us and a real improvement on Rein. Trouble is 45+ tackles per game takes its toll and we lose out a bit in attack. Trouble is if he doesn't make 45+ per match who takes up the slack especially with no JDB? Robson needs to be there to give Mc Innes a rest but shifting C McI to lock and having both on the paddock doesn't avail him of a rest at all. So does Robson go to lock in the rotation and take up the extra tackling to allow Mc Innes to rest and attack from dummy half. A good coach would probably use them both at dummy half when on together to give our attack a real POD.

Bench : Well what can you say about that other than totally unbalanced every game. We have a noticeable drop in forward power (loss of JDB) and we opt for a small impact (7 minute super sub) who comes on when the forwards are busted. Now we have 1 small and a medium in Robson and we have 2 bigs out for origin. We are a team that needs forward domination to give our backs some air, so there is no point whatsoever in not picking 4 forwards 1 of which must be Robson and he gets 30 + minutes. The Latimore thing has been done to death but picking him anywhere other than CC is totally disruptive and again unbalances the team.
We had an unbalanced bench all of last year with Mann and we still didn't learn.

By all means have a couple of solid depth players but the rest need to come from within our ranks. In all honesty what has having Allgood, Nicholls & Lats for that matter done for the club other than set other players backward? How did we decide that Maranta & Runciman were worthwhile IMO just a repeat of oft made mistakes in recruitment regardless of whether they are in our top 32 or not.

To get a balanced team we need to be ruthless and get specialist players for each position and stop being fanatical about "utility" & "depth".

IMO time to trade out Aitken, shift Frizz to the middle, dispense with Lats, Nicholls & Allgood. Make a decision on LL either prop or trade him, pick Kerr and if he doesn't cut it trade him and in the mean time get some game time into the other young props we before we go of buying another Graham or Latimore. Saab into the squad now and gets the next chance at a wing spot if Rava or Pearson don't cut it. Field is either the heir apparent to Hunt or is not if so he plays half in the lower grades or you trade him. Same with Dufty he is either the FB or he is not so pick him or trade him stop dicking around with keeping them on the books and offering them as the excuses when it all turns to shit.

Anyway hopefully some others have some opinions on the matter and I'll make sure I don't fall of the edge of my chair reading all the other balanced points of view.
Pretty sharp analysis OT
1. I agree with FB. Dufty just doesn't have an all round game.
When I look at kids like Meanie from the Dogs or even the young guy from Canberra, we must install a high quality custodian if we are serious about the future.
2. Wingers - agree with Saab being fast tracked and the rest will sort themselves out. Why we needed to buy a gaggle of wingers to solve this problem is beyond me.
Nightingale's career was well and truly over but they crucified him with that switch to accommodate MacDonald.
3. Centres - Lomax at right centre all day long - he will only get better with more game time, Aitkin and Lafai traded and enter the market for a hard nosed LC option that will develop a combination with Lomax. We have forgotten what a great asset our past centre pairings were. Gasnier and Cooper, Beattie and Johnston are stand outs. We have really missed that for years now.
4. 5/8 - Norman looks the goods and is a different kind of player than Widdop.
They made a meal of the spine changes and it cost us.
It will be interesting to see what they do when and if Widdop is available to play again especially if Norman is doing the business.
5. HB - Hunt is a great player but is not a clutch maestro.
His kicking game is also not good enough right now.
Happy to have him in the team with a better balance.
6. Back row - I agree with you. Frizzel is a great front on tackler but struggles laterally.
Host has resolved one edge and will only get better if given more game time.
Leilua is problematic. Either make him a ball playing prop or trade him. He is not an edge forward.
We need one more quality back rower assuming JDB doesn't make it.
7. Props - Don't underestimate the loss of LAM. He was a great defender around the ruck and by losing both him and JDB we are somewhat of a sieve down the guts.
The young Dogs hooker exposed us on numerous occasions on Monday.
In the mean time, the only Prop that is indispensable is Vaughn.
Graham has had his day and by next year it will be worse.
Totally agree with Latimore, Allgood and not giving more game time to the up and comers.
How else will we ever know whether we have some front rower firebrands ready to go to battle?
If we could buy a FG ready prop it would also alleviate the problem.
Also agree with 4 forwards on the bench.
8. Hooker - Robson/McInnes rotation would have been a great solution but I am afraid we have lost Robson.
McInnes is a 100% performer that plays with heart but he needs to be utilized in a sensible way.
9. Bench - plenty of comments on the bench set up.
I often wonder how many games our crap bench costs us in a season.
It seems like there is no improvement in sight.
What difference would it really make if we had Timm and Blacker or Kerr on the bench instead of Latimore and an outside back.
We can only hope for a change in philosophy which will only follow a serious change in coaching structure.
 
Last edited:

Brutalitops

Juniors
Messages
2,285
Easy, get 15 bad players and 15 good players. Work out the rest from there.

Kz5vqqk.jpg
 

possm

Coach
Messages
14,040
During Mary's tenure it's only the outside backs that have been unbalanced. Aside from that the squad has been pretty balanced and an above-average coach would see the squad finish Top 4 in 2018 or 2019.

Bad coaching and (this year) injuries have caused the side to be substantially unbalanced.
I'd say the handling of the JDB affair has had a big influence on the playing squad. One of our top officials - say Johnston our CEO - should have taken this out of Mary's hands and kept things quiet while at the same time, supported JDB as much as he can.

Other influences such as fatigue, poor selections and poor bench management were always going to be there; we just didn't need the JDB matter to pile on top.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,925
So all opinions other than yours - you will have to stop yourself falling off your chair......
Now that post is not very balanced on your part.
A balanced comment would have been something like eg OT was so excited he was sitting ion the edge if his chair in anticipation and couldn’t wait for the even handed responses of the posters on this forum
 

Saint_JimmyG

First Grade
Messages
5,067
Looking at our team / squad over the last few years I have come to the conclusion that we are terribly unbalanced and due to stupid decisions we remain that way and never progress.

FB : We had kick return ability with no attack and exchange it for spasmodic attack with no kick return ability. Then we juggle that around by taking our best centre prospect and play him at FB and then jettison that idea because of an injury to a centre. Little rhyme or reason or positivity in what we do with FB leta alone pissing off our bets player by asking him to play there as well.

Wing : We played Nighty on the opposite wing that he perfected to allow Mc Donald to play on his wing but then swapped them back that was incredulous and neither is with the club anymore. Now we have signed 3 wingers external of our club with little NRL experience and we are chopping and changing them and refused to bring through Saab who has the most potential of all.

Centres : We continue with Aitken and after 3 years and only due to an injury do we actually play him on his correct left side and no doubt when Lafai (slowest centre in memory) returns Aitken will go back to the right side and we will start chopping and changing Lomax & Dufty at the back as Lomax who has the most potential will be sacrificed for the "senior" player.

5/8 : Well we had a beauty but now believe he is a FB and purchased Norman which just confused the selection process early in the season and layed a bad platform for the team. In saying that I have to admit there is evidence that Norman when on his game is a real asset.

HB : Hunt is an upgrade on previous but is still to show he is the dynamic player we need on a week in week out basis. His best IMO only comes when others are playing at their best around him. Not the player that can lift the team to snatch improbable wins and who is his replacement when he is unavailable. Surely that should be settled now but is it?

13 : We lose JDB and it was evident that it would be very messy but we sit on our heels instead of being pro-active. We have had a merry go round of players in that position and even played people out of position in CC to see if we could conjure up a 13 from the lower grade. The loss of JDB has been huge and half a season in we are still f**king around with square pegs in round holes. Lawrie is no lock.

2nd row : Is Frizz an edge player or is he a middle? The more I watch him I think he is a middle. He runs hard, tackles ferociously but doesn't contribute very much to attacking raids and it is a rarity to see him put a support away for a try. His presence on the RHS was also a factor in that side being attacked with great success by other teams. Not so apparent now with Host and Lomax even allowing for Rava's lack of experience.
Host IMO is a better hole runner and is now playing a solid 80 minutes each game and we have Jackson Ford coming on behind as well,

F Row : A real conundrum for us as we refuse to really consider Timm, Blacker & Kerr and the alternates of Latimore & Allgood are just ludicrous. If we were to move Frizz to allow Host the right edge then do we play Frizz as prop or 13? Graham is running out / has run out of legs and should only be on the bench but imagine him & Lats off the bench you need a wheelchair and a commode on the sideline. Is Leilua a prop or en edge and a decision needs to be made there as well? On the edge he flounders in defence but he has done much better IMO in the middle. Now we even have games where the edge players in attack spend time in the middle defending again IMO far too much fiddling around and unbalancing the team.

Hooker : Mc Innes has been great for us and a real improvement on Rein. Trouble is 45+ tackles per game takes its toll and we lose out a bit in attack. Trouble is if he doesn't make 45+ per match who takes up the slack especially with no JDB? Robson needs to be there to give Mc Innes a rest but shifting C McI to lock and having both on the paddock doesn't avail him of a rest at all. So does Robson go to lock in the rotation and take up the extra tackling to allow Mc Innes to rest and attack from dummy half. A good coach would probably use them both at dummy half when on together to give our attack a real POD.

Bench : Well what can you say about that other than totally unbalanced every game. We have a noticeable drop in forward power (loss of JDB) and we opt for a small impact (7 minute super sub) who comes on when the forwards are busted. Now we have 1 small and a medium in Robson and we have 2 bigs out for origin. We are a team that needs forward domination to give our backs some air, so there is no point whatsoever in not picking 4 forwards 1 of which must be Robson and he gets 30 + minutes. The Latimore thing has been done to death but picking him anywhere other than CC is totally disruptive and again unbalances the team.
We had an unbalanced bench all of last year with Mann and we still didn't learn.

By all means have a couple of solid depth players but the rest need to come from within our ranks. In all honesty what has having Allgood, Nicholls & Lats for that matter done for the club other than set other players backward? How did we decide that Maranta & Runciman were worthwhile IMO just a repeat of oft made mistakes in recruitment regardless of whether they are in our top 32 or not.

To get a balanced team we need to be ruthless and get specialist players for each position and stop being fanatical about "utility" & "depth".

IMO time to trade out Aitken, shift Frizz to the middle, dispense with Lats, Nicholls & Allgood. Make a decision on LL either prop or trade him, pick Kerr and if he doesn't cut it trade him and in the mean time get some game time into the other young props we before we go of buying another Graham or Latimore. Saab into the squad now and gets the next chance at a wing spot if Rava or Pearson don't cut it. Field is either the heir apparent to Hunt or is not if so he plays half in the lower grades or you trade him. Same with Dufty he is either the FB or he is not so pick him or trade him stop dicking around with keeping them on the books and offering them as the excuses when it all turns to shit.

Anyway hopefully some others have some opinions on the matter and I'll make sure I don't fall of the edge of my chair reading all the other balanced points of view.

It’s near impossible to fault any of this.
 

Dragonsteve2

Juniors
Messages
401
OT, I am grateful for what you have done. For me there is too much sniping over one or two players on this Forum but you have provided a detailed analysis of the many issues that cause us concern. The only problem is that putting it altogether as you have done it is very hard not to reach Possm's view that it is a mess!

I only want to make a few points:

1. I think the whole JDB saga has had a serious impact on the club this year. Around the Mudgee game Mary just seemed too close to Jack. But otherwise I think it is easier to think of dealing with this situation better with the benefit of hindsight. Whether Jack is guilty or not, players with at least average intelligence should be able to learn some valuable lessons from his situation.

2. Yes Hunt is definitely an improvement, as you said recently our bests since Goldthorpe although I thought Head was very good before being injured. Hunt is a valuable addition but he is no Thurston, nor Cronk. However like Dennis P noted his kicking game is not what it should be. I do not understand why a highly paid player cannot put the time in to drastically improve his kicking game. At his weakest his kicking is barely an improvement on McCrone.

3. Lattimore: I was happy enough with Latts last year. But this year is a different story. And now he plays such a short time. Last week I wanted to watch him closely. I think he only made the one run though a dozen or so tackles but suddenly after about 15 minutes he was off to the bench. WTF? I thought we had SoO players to rest!

4. As Dennis has pointed out the bench selection and strategy needs no further comment. However I must ask what about Jai's 5-6 minutes last week? The game well in hand, Hunt playing a full SoO game at hooker, no Hunt in a couple of weeks so why wouldn't you give Jai 20 minutes?
 

Carlton

Juniors
Messages
1,149
Unbalanced ? yes.

But as bad as its being made out? No.

We have a problem with fullback and this is the most pressing thing to fix. Next is center and following that prop and then lock.

Dont blame low cost CC players or Millward for recruiting them as back up, this is what every team does. No one expected that two centers would be down and we would be looking at playing Maranta. The issue wasn't Maranta it was Aitken all along and should have been addressed before this.

The JDB situation was not on anyones radar and handling this was and still is a bombshell as it is the first time it has happened and the ramifications of the NRL's policy have to be worked through as it was never thought through properly and the club is in a rubbish position through no fault of its own.

The issue with fullback looked like it was being addressed until Hayne got himself into a position where the club did the right thing and didnt sign him. The issue here is this should have been fixed last year.

Prop is a situation I'm lost on, we need one, we needed one when the year started, we buy a couple of young guys and then dont try them even when Graham fractures a leg. Lawrie is a goer but he is not the answer, we need a big bopper who can bend the line. Blame Latimore all you want but he is a minimum wage fill in and his stats are on par or better than some of the other forwards.

In short get a top flight fullback, a big prop, a gun center and lock can be covered internally. In my opinion with a couple of additions we will have a squad as balanced as the best teams.

PS: forgot, not until we change the coach.
 
Messages
390
I'd say the handling of the JDB affair has had a big influence on the playing squad. One of our top officials - say Johnston our CEO - should have taken this out of Mary's hands and kept things quiet while at the same time, supported JDB as much as he can.
I'm not a fan of either our Coach or CEO but I think they've handled the de Belin situation remarkably well. They've both supported him publicly in a professional manner - what more would you like them to do?

The only criticism I have of the CEO is he did not give evidence for de Belin in his civil matter (but I'm unsure of de Belin's legal representation's strategy and tactics heading into that matter. All I know is he now has new legal representation for his appeal - make of that what you will...)
 

BLM01

First Grade
Messages
6,667
Unbalanced ? yes.

But as bad as its being made out? No.

We have a problem with fullback and this is the most pressing thing to fix. Next is center and following that prop and then lock.

Dont blame low cost CC players or Millward for recruiting them as back up, this is what every team does. No one expected that two centers would be down and we would be looking at playing Maranta. The issue wasn't Maranta it was Aitken all along and should have been addressed before this.

The JDB situation was not on anyones radar and handling this was and still is a bombshell as it is the first time it has happened and the ramifications of the NRL's policy have to be worked through as it was never thought through properly and the club is in a rubbish position through no fault of its own.

The issue with fullback looked like it was being addressed until Hayne got himself into a position where the club did the right thing and didnt sign him. The issue here is this should have been fixed last year.

Prop is a situation I'm lost on, we need one, we needed one when the year started, we buy a couple of young guys and then dont try them even when Graham fractures a leg. Lawrie is a goer but he is not the answer, we need a big bopper who can bend the line. Blame Latimore all you want but he is a minimum wage fill in and his stats are on par or better than some of the other forwards.

In short get a top flight fullback, a big prop, a gun center and lock can be covered internally. In my opinion with a couple of additions we will have a squad as balanced as the best teams.

PS: forgot, not until we change the coach.
Carlton agree with most except
1. Lawrie is young and will get better and a good prop in a couple of years and is a keeper
2. Dufty. People have short memories. Remember Tedesco in his early years, injury prone..too light etc but fast. Then after a couple of years he became a great cover defender legs tackler but still injuey prone then built up. Roosters picked him up the year after just about when he was reaching his potential. Look at him now. Now Dufty is a bit older than Teddy in comparison but I am just looking at 1st grade time here. He might not get there but needs bit more time and coaching likely something as we all agree we lack. Look at Slater..another one out of the box aided by a great side and coach in his younger years.
Dufty only needs work on the defensive side of the game primarily which I have seen slight improvement in contact lately. Taking the ball back from a set start from the back stronger will come with bit more time, confidence etc.
As I said he might not make it and has probably limited time (next year or 2 to keep improving) but everyone is writing him off too early IMO..same as Lawrie. People like the media expect people with potential to realise it immediately when get to 1st grade.
 

Carlton

Juniors
Messages
1,149
Carlton agree with most except
1. Lawrie is young and will get better and a good prop in a couple of years and is a keeper
2. Dufty. People have short memories. Remember Tedesco in his early years, injury prone..too light etc but fast. Then after a couple of years he became a great cover defender legs tackler but still injuey prone then built up. Roosters picked him up the year after just about when he was reaching his potential. Look at him now. Now Dufty is a bit older than Teddy in comparison but I am just looking at 1st grade time here. He might not get there but needs bit more time and coaching likely something as we all agree we lack. Look at Slater..another one out of the box aided by a great side and coach in his younger years.
Dufty only needs work on the defensive side of the game primarily which I have seen slight improvement in contact lately. Taking the ball back from a set start from the back stronger will come with bit more time, confidence etc.
As I said he might not make it and has probably limited time (next year or 2 to keep improving) but everyone is writing him off too early IMO..same as Lawrie. People like the media expect people with potential to realise it immediately when get to 1st grade.

Tedesco is 26, Dufty is 23, in 2016 at 23 Tedesco played origin.

I am not a Tedesco fan but he is streets ahead of Dufty in ability and development at the same age.
 

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