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Brisbane II v The CC

Perth Red

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68,263
Ask the AFL how hard starting up a team with no fans in the land of an established club is.

.

The closest analogy would be the Freo Dockers and WC Eagles (in fact a very similiar scenario to Broncos and Bombers/WC)

Despite the might of the Eagles, people saying Perth couldn't sustain two teams, that it would dilute the Eagles fanbase, that Dockers wouldn;t draw a crowd (starting to sound familiar?) The Dockers have carved out a market forthemselves, started off avg'ing 23k and are now averaging 33k crowds and have made not one bit of difference to the continued growth of the Eagles.

You are probably alluding to the GWS scenario but if we were discussing a 2nd team in Melbourne that would be a fairer analogy. Brisbane is a RL city and can sustain 2 teams comfortably. If Sydney with its 4mil pop can sustain 10 teams then Brisbane with its 2mill can sustain 2!
 

age.s

First Grade
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7,739
The closest analogy would be the Freo Dockers and WC Eagles (in fact a very similiar scenario to Broncos and Bombers/WC)

Despite the might of the Eagles, people saying Perth couldn't sustain two teams, that it would dilute the Eagles fanbase, that Dockers wouldn;t draw a crowd (starting to sound familiar?) The Dockers have carved out a market forthemselves, started off avg'ing 23k and are now averaging 33k crowds and have made not one bit of difference to the continued growth of the Eagles.

You are probably alluding to the GWS scenario but if we were discussing a 2nd team in Melbourne that would be a fairer analogy. Brisbane is a RL city and can sustain 2 teams comfortably. If Sydney with its 4mil pop can sustain 10 teams then Brisbane with its 2mill can sustain 2!

Maybe. 2012 Brisbane isn't the same as 1994 Perth though. If we're going to lump CC in with Sydney then the GC should be lumped in with Brisbane then the Dockers weren't competing with 2 clubs. A hypothetical third Perth club introduced in 2000 would be a better analogy if we're going to run that line. Not to mention there's much more competition in the Brisbane sporting market today.

GWS certainly is a different scenario. The Bombers wouldn't be that kind of basket case/abortion, but I can't imagine they'd be standing on their own 2 feet quickly. They certainly wouldn't be the second coming of the Broncos that would command extra money from the TV deal.
 

Perth Red

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The Tv execs seem to disagree with you. Reality is they are interested in eyes on TV's not bums on seats. It's why certain clubs get the most FTA spots regardless of their crowd size or empty stadia. TV has stated a number of times that a 2nd Brisbane team would bring in more viewers than any other option, agree or disagree but that is what they reckon and they are paying the bills. This is the sole reason why Brisbane2 will be the first name out of the hat for an expansion team imo then it becomes a fight between CC and Perth.
 

age.s

First Grade
Messages
7,739
The Tv execs seem to disagree with you. Reality is they are interested in eyes on TV's not bums on seats. It's why certain clubs get the most FTA spots regardless of their crowd size or empty stadia. TV has stated a number of times that a 2nd Brisbane team would bring in more viewers than any other option, agree or disagree but that is what they reckon and they are paying the bills. This is the sole reason why Brisbane2 will be the first name out of the hat for an expansion team imo then it becomes a fight between CC and Perth.

I wasn't talking about bums on seats. I'm talking about how much more likely it is that the Bombers would get a higher TV audience than any other NRL game if nobody follows them. The location of the team only matters if people from that location actually follow the team.

I know what some people have said. I just don't know that it will work out that way. How many Friday night games do the Titans get?
 

El Diablo

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94,107
Anyone who thinks the CC is part of Sydney, in any way, shape or form, has problems.

It's as much a part of Sydney as Campbelltown is of Liverpool.

it's classed as part of Sydney according to Oztam which is the most important thing

it would therefore not increase the rights value and no TV network has mentioned it

both 9 and 10 have said they'd like a 2nd Brisbane team and it would increase the rights value. Gyngell said something like an extra $20 million a year
 

Perth Red

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Doga I think if it was just about expanding the game then you'd be right but for the ARLC at this point in time it is as much about increasing income as about growing the game.

We have 4 good areas all with pros and cons, it isn't going to be an easy decision (if they ever make one that is!)
 
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42,632
it's classed as part of Sydney according to Oztam which is the most important thing

it would therefore not increase the rights value and no TV network has mentioned it

both 9 and 10 have said they'd like a 2nd Brisbane team and it would increase the rights value. Gyngell said something like an extra $20 million a year

I understand that but for mine, it's a Rugby League stronghold that should have it's own team.

Being in the OZTAM Sydney area doesn't make it Sydney. People on the Central Coast certainly don't consider themselves Sydney people, just as they don't consider themselves Newcastle people.

I know the new teams will be Perth and Brisbane II though, and I understand the reasoning, but it just irks me that the CC will miss out again when for mine the Brisbane II team is a lot less deserving on so many fronts. On this one, for me, the TV rights aren't the most important issue, getting teams to those who deserve and have earned a team comes first. The only criticism I have of the Bears is their tie up with North Sydney, that should have been let go long ago and I think that'll still hurt them.

Anyway, mabe we'll get to see a Singo hissy fit again, that'd be good value. And if Perth misses out, there's always watching that f**king mongoloid perth red dissolving in his own tears to look forward to.
 

Lockyer4President!

First Grade
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7,975
I've always thought that the connection with North Sydney is a strength.

The CC by themselves can't compete with Brisbane 2, Perth or Adelaide but with the Bears connection they are right up there.

I think a lot of the arguments here get caught up in semantics. Facts are that the CC is a strong RL area with its own identity and has very strong ties to one of the historic clubs of the game. It's only a matter of time until they get in imo.

If they are overlooked in 2015 I can only hope Florimo doesn't give up and the ARL gives them some kind of direction/timeframe to work with. Ditto with the CQ Bid.
 

Perth Red

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68,263
I've always thought that the connection with North Sydney is a strength.

The CC by themselves can't compete with Brisbane 2, Perth or Adelaide but with the Bears connection they are right up there.

I think a lot of the arguments here get caught up in semantics. Facts are that the CC is a strong RL area with its own identity and has very strong ties to one of the historic clubs of the game. It's only a matter of time until they get in imo.

If they are overlooked in 2015 I can only hope Florimo doesn't give up and the ARL gives them some kind of direction/timeframe to work with. Ditto with the CQ Bid.

Can you ever see the NRL going to 20 teams? I very much doubt it. There best hope is to keep plugging away and hope someone falls over. It will be a very very long time imo until the NRL expands again after this one.
 
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Nah, unlike the 40,000 soft c**ks from North Sydney I'll never turn my back on the game I love!

Wow that's a bit harsh. Didn't know having passion for our brand, our team which is one it the originals is being a soft c**k and how exactly did we turn our back on the game? Don't speak on matters you clearly have no clue about dude, don't wanna look like a dunce now.
 

Lockyer4President!

First Grade
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7,975
Can you ever see the NRL going to 20 teams? I very much doubt it. There best hope is to keep plugging away and hope someone falls over. It will be a very very long time imo until the NRL expands again after this one.
What makes you think that? We had twenty teams back in '95... Now we have more money, more juniors, more cities covered, etc.

20 is a given IMO
 

Perth Red

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Wow that's a bit harsh. Didn't know having passion for our brand, our team which is one it the originals is being a soft c**k and how exactly did we turn our back on the game? Don't speak on matters you clearly have no clue about dude, don't wanna look like a dunce now.

I've been told numerous times that 40,000 people no longer follow Rugby league because the Bears were kicked out and that these 40,000 will return once the CC Bears are admitted. Just saying that if we get kicked in the face and miss out on an NRL team next time around I will continue to enjoy the NRL, I will continue to enjoy the WARL games I attend and I will continue to support the game over any other, unlike the 40,000 Bears fans who supposedly abandoned the game.
 
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4,968
I've been told numerous times that 40,000 people no longer follow Rugby league because the Bears were kicked out and that these 40,000 will return once the CC Bears are admitted. Just saying that if we get kicked in the face and miss out on an NRL team next time around I will continue to enjoy the NRL, I will continue to enjoy the WARL games I attend and I will continue to support the game over any other, unlike the 40,000 Bears fans who supposedly abandoned the game.

It was the game that abandoned them. Most of these people still support the game through local or junior comps, just not neccessarily via NRL. It doesn't mean that their soft c**ks. Plenty of these fans have their kids playing in the junior region, some even have relatives in the NSW Cup. People don't just abandon a code, just the premier flight.

Personally, I don't really care what you think in regards to the Bears, north Sydney or central coast. We'll always have a fanbase and passion. We'll always have people trying to get us back in, we just so happen to have a great bid currently.
 

Perth Red

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And like I've said for 3 years now if you get in I will applaud the amazing work done from the grass roots up by the Bears bid and doth my cap to you guys. If it purely came down to who deserves it the most based on work done on their bid I would put the Bears No1 by a long long way. Sadly my opinion is that won't be enough. But we shall see.

Anyway the longer this goes on the deeper the feeling in my stomach that they will announce no expansion until 2018. If they don't announce soon it will be of no value to the TV deal anyway as the new teams won't be entering until 2016 when there are only two years left on the contract.
 

Quidgybo

Bench
Messages
3,054
What makes you think that? We had twenty teams back in '95... Now we have more money, more juniors, more cities covered, etc.

20 is a given IMO

I speculated on the 20 team question in a previous thread...

Quidgybo said:
I think we need to seriously consider the possibility that the comp won't expand beyond 18 teams for many many years. We all know that News (our major media buyer) really wanted a 12 team comp and that they compromised on 14 to end the war. Yes, the networks want more games involving Queensland teams and content to attract better ratings in the New Zealand and Perth markets. But that doesn't mean they want an ever larger comp and the flab that brings. Quantity does not necessarily equal quality.

We already have a minority calling for no expansion beyond 16 and that view is sure to grow considerably once we're at 18. Our own CEO has stated that as a comp we should be aspiring to the NFL model but, with a population base under 30 million, every additional mouth to feed is taking us in the wrong direction for achieving anything like that. Given that, I just can't see a 20 team comp being on the agenda any time soon (ie. within 20 years). I think it's much more likely we'll reach the other markets you name in the meantime through a redistribution of existing licenses.

Another way to think about it is that once we expand to 18 teams we'll need a number of years to absorb the impact of a two team expansion and then more years on top of that if we're to prepare properly for a further two team expansion. But we probably can't wait that long to get into these other markets which means we'd need to go through some sort of re-allocation of existing licenses anyway. And if we've already managed to satisfy our need to get into these markets before expanding further, what's the point in rushing to 20 teams?

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?p=7894659

To that I'd add a thought about where the NRL goes as a commercial enterprise and television product over the longer term. We're about to become a $200m+ a year television product, up from around $100m currently. That'll take us close to the market lead in terms of sports television content in the Australia/New Zealand market. But how do we take the new big leap? How do we go from a $200m a year product to an NFL scale $4b a year product (in today's money) - say within the next 30 years? I'd suggest that it's unlikely we'll be able to squeeze that sort of scale out of the relatively small 30 million people market in Australia and New Zealand within any of our lifetimes.

If we're looking at the competition growth over the next 20 to 30 years, and considering the arguments I raised in the above post about the time needed to absorb an expansion and prepare for the next without hurting the standard of the current comp, I think it's unlikely the comp could expand by more than 6 or maybe 8 franchises in that time regardless of where we go. If at the same time we're looking to dramatically step up to the next level, we're not going to make giant strides using those new franchises to target the small Australia/New Zealand market.

So while the comp may indeed expand beyond 18 teams in the next 20 to 30 years, that doesn't necessarily mean more than 18 franchises will ever be made available in Australia and New Zealand. This market is the solid base but if we want to be really big then it can't be the be all and end all, we have to leave room for expansion further afield. Don't be surprised if, as the money gets bigger and the global exposure of the game increases with the rise of internet television, we start seeing foreign interests from places like the USA (West coast especially) wanting to buy into the comp with their own home grown franchises.

Leigh.
 
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Knightmare

Coach
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10,716
I wasn't talking about bums on seats. I'm talking about how much more likely it is that the Bombers would get a higher TV audience than any other NRL game if nobody follows them. The location of the team only matters if people from that location actually follow the team.

I know what some people have said. I just don't know that it will work out that way. How many Friday night games do the Titans get?


Ding ding ding. We have a winner.
 

Goddo

Bench
Messages
4,257
Expansion plan sweetener in TV talks

EXPANSION plans that include the possibility of the competition increasing by two teams, staggered over two years, have been flagged during negotiations with television networks on the new broadcast deal.

Industry insiders have told the Herald of a number of developments in negotiations involving the Nine, Fox, Seven and Ten networks with the ARLC's negotiating team, led by Graeme Samuel from the advisory firm Greenhill Caliburn. They include the commission's desire to have a fourth club game shown on free-to-air each week, on Saturday nights, and also to have all free-to-air games simulcast on Fox Sports, in a similar arrangement to the one Fox has with the AFL.

It is believed that, after each of the networks were given briefings by Samuel and his team on Tuesday, the negotiations will heat up before the end of the month. The new deal is likely to be finalised in September - right in the middle of the finals series.

''September could be even bigger for rugby league than everyone thinks,'' one insider said. ''The finals will be on - on and off the field.''

But while there have been suggestions the league's new deal could be worth up to $1.25 billion over five years - matching the AFL's television deal - insiders say $1 billion will more likely be the upper limit.

''The AFL has nine games a week to league's eight, plus there is 30 per cent more advertising time available in AFL games, so people are naive to think league can get as much as AFL,'' an insider said. ''If they can get more than $1 billion, they will have done a damn fine job.''

Speculation about expansion has been ongoing in recent years, and there is a growing list of groups that are prepared to financially back the introduction of new teams. Brisbane, Perth and Central Queensland are regarded as the front-running spots, ahead of Central Coast.

The ARLC, like the NRL before it, was not prepared to go ahead with expansion until the new TV deal was in place, and insiders say that, ideally, the commission would like to add one or two teams during the five-year life of the deal.

But introducing two new teams in one year is seen as a risk, because of the distinct possibility both could struggle in their early stages. That has created the possible scenario of one team being introduced in 2015, with a weekly bye that season, and another team the following year. Insiders predict that whatever the successful networks end up having to pay for the new deal will be what it is worth, because the league's negotiating team is first-class.

''The networks have got a stiff fight on their hands,'' an insider said. ''There is talk [ARLC chairman] John Grant is obsessed with attention, but the fact is he's really switched on when it comes to driving a business, and Graeme Samuel and [acting ARLC chief executive] Shane Mattiske are doing a great job up front.

''The current league negotiators are better placed to handle these type of negotiations than the game has been in the past. They are tough and smart. It's more professional than the cricket, and much more like the AFL. David Gallop was hamstrung by News Ltd's involvement in the game in the past.

''Mattiske is making a good impression in negotiations. If he plays this right he could be an underdog for the commission CEO's role. He's a frank, straight-shooting, passionate sort of guy. Professional negotiators have given the league the chance to get the best possible outcome.''

The negotiating team reports to a sub-committee comprising Grant, Ian Elliot, Jeremy Sutcliffe and Gary Pemberton, representing the ARLC.

The ARLC has told the networks what it would like from the deal, in terms of scheduling arrangements. Insiders say it is not only keen on a free-to-air game on Saturday nights, but also having all of the free-to-air games simulcast on Fox, which is what happens with the AFL.

Whether any of this becomes a reality is going to come down to the hard-edged negotiations that will begin soon. The networks are planning their next moves, and at this stage all elements of the game - club and representative - remain up for grabs.

Insiders say that - apart from the obvious, that Nine and Fox want to keep what they have got, three games and five games a week respectively - Seven is mainly interested in getting one club game a week and the ratings crown in the jewel, State of Origin. And indications are that Ten is serious about hacking off a big chunk of the league pie.

It was reported yesterday that Ten is close to finalising the sale of its outdoor advertising business, Eye Corp, for between $125 million and $150 million. That would obviously boost its chances of being able to buy big into league. And it is understood Seven is also in the process of making a major capital-raising move.

''The talk is that Ten are going to throw everything at league,'' an insider said.
The unprecedented interest in the game from the networks will inevitably mean an even better coverage.

''The viewer is going to be the big winner,'' an insider said. ''League is already a great television product, but it's going to get even better.''
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...lan-sweetener-in-tv-talks-20120712-21yy3.html
 
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