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Commission to outlaw 'shoulder charge'

Should the Shoulder Charge be banned?


  • Total voters
    346

***MH***

Bench
Messages
3,974
If they are really interested in removing the shoulder charge to lower the risk of long term brain injuries, perhaps they should cut off their sponsorship agreements with Bunderburg, VB and XXXX. We all know that alcohol is related to long term brain injuries.
 

Zigwaa

Bench
Messages
2,744
Reading an article about the NRL review of the shoulder charge.

The review states there were 71 shoulder charges in 2012 & 12 came into contact with the head. That's 17% of shoulder charges that go wrong.

Put this in perspective - there's roughly 600 tackles a game & 8 games per weekend 4800, with 24 full rounds equals 115200 tackles per regular season. Of that 0.06% of all tackles are shoulder charges. 0.01% are shoulder charges that have come into contact with the head.

Do they really need to outlaw something that happens 0.06% of the time & 0.01% of the time goes wrong? Poor decision NRL
 
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Geohood

Bench
Messages
3,712
Most players that I've seen on twitter the past couple of days have condemned the decision. As i said earlier there hasn't been something that has united players like this in a long time.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,738
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...rom-rugby-league/story-e6frexnr-1226520747167



Honestly, who do we think we are! This is why the rlif should be the governing body of the entire sport.
The RLIF is essentially an arm of the NRL.
It really f**ks me off when Australian administrators arrogantly change the rules of the game and expect the rest of the world to adjust.

And this is the worst rule change they've ever made. f**kin idiots.

I think i'll be watching a lot more ESL in 2013.
NZRL are on board and I'd bet my last cent on the poms being on board by 2013 kickoff aswell.
How can they be sued.. there is already a law in place banning ANY tackle attacking the head. So its not as tho the league allows high shoulder chargers.
FFS the problem isn't only high shoulder charges. Legal shoulder charges have a g-force more than 70% in excess of standard tackles. Even legal shoulder charges can cause long term damage.
Most players that I've seen on twitter the past couple of days have condemned the decision. As i said earlier there hasn't been something that has united players like this in a long time.
Maybe more than 1 player should have responded to the survey they were given then....
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
Some of you, pubic hair wigs, are so worked up, you will give yourself brain damage ie: stroke.:lol:

Rally, rally is the way to go - march on League HQ. It would be a pisser.
 
Messages
2,364
FFS the problem isn't only high shoulder charges. Legal shoulder charges have a g-force more than 70% in excess of standard tackles. Even legal shoulder charges can cause long term damage.

Tackles with multiple players have increased g-force; Kick returns have increased g-force; the 10 metre line has increased g-force. Why stop at shoulder charges? Concussions and serious injury don't.

It's okay to say now, as you're all doing, that shoulder charges are the most dangerous aspect of the game and so we must focus on them. Well, okay, what about in 5 years time when shoulder charges are eradicated. Will you then support a ban on the next most dangerous aspect of the game. Will you then say that the 10 metre line is responsible for x% increase in g-force and injury, we must do-away with the 10 metre line. Will you say that gang tackles are responsible for x% increase in g-force and injury, therefore they must be outlawed.

I don't believe that you're prepared to do that, which is why I cannot take serious this feigned concern for player welfare that you use to spearhead your argument.

It's intellectually dishonest to masquerade, as so many of you are doing, as health ethicists, when you don't seem willing to follow through with your own logic and arguments. If you start with and stop with shoulder charges then you have not a leg to stand on in claiming to care about the well being of Rugby League participants.
 

bottle

Coach
Messages
14,126
I'm slowly backing away from this thread now whilst no one is watching.
It's a tad embarrassing when the side you're on is being over represented by the victim blamers, the end of the worlders, the conspiracy theorists, the histrionic and the hysterical, and those who would like to deny those with a different opinion the right to express it without abusing them in return.
Slowly...backing...away...shhhhh
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
I'm slowly backing away from this thread now whilst no one is watching.
It's a tad embarrassing when the side you're on is being over represented by the victim blamers, the end of the worlders, the conspiracy theorists, the histrionic and the hysterical, and those who would like to deny those with a different opinion the right to express it without abusing them in return.
Slowly...backing...away...shhhhh

:lol:. Slowly, slowly make your way to this corner over here - no one will see you - only us merkins here.;-)
 

Bengal

Juniors
Messages
877
It's a tad embarrassing when the side you're on is being over represented by the victim blamers, the end of the worlders, the conspiracy theorists, the histrionic and the hysterical, and those who would like to deny those with a different opinion the right to express it without abusing them in return.
Are they all that because people really have behaved in that manner or are they all that because they've simply expressed views that don't gel with your own! Certainly, your own take on poster behavior isn't exactly above reproach.
 

Frailty

First Grade
Messages
9,459
The RLIF is essentially an arm of the NRL.

Actually, if anything, the NRL is an arm of the RLIF. Don't sound so arrogant. Funny that if the RLIF is 'essentially an arm of the NRL' that they haven't gone down the route of two referees.

NZRL are on board and I'd bet my last cent on the poms being on board by 2013 kickoff aswell.

As well*.

Unfortunately, I fear you are right. The game will get even weaker at international level.

FFS the problem isn't only high shoulder charges. Legal shoulder charges have a g-force more than 70% in excess of standard tackles. Even legal shoulder charges can cause long term damage.

There are a number of problems with this.

Firstly, all the medical evidence used was related to direct head and neck contact (albeit in the US which I have already shown why this is flawed), and not G forces. If we are to look at G forces, perhaps we should consider that neuropsychologist Kim Gorgens found most concussions deliver 95 g's to the body on impact. A shoulder charge is 10.682.

Furthermore, with the 'average' tackle being 6.056 g's apparently, we need to consider how this average was worked out. It would take into consideration tackles where forward momentum isn't stopped and range to a hard tackle that is comparable to the shoulder charge. Do you propose we ban any 'hard' tackles despite they would ran an equal risk?

The best part is even Doctor's supporting this used an example where a player had a cardiac arrest on the field during a Union game... He was hit with a legal tackle (You know, the sport that already banned shoulder charges).

There has not been the research conducted that would adequately support this ban. It is not about 'oh I want to see a big hit', it's about I want them to show cause with credible and relevant evidence. They have not done this.

Maybe more than 1 player should have responded to the survey they were given then....

That they were given? I see you mean the one that was placed somewhere on a website they probably wouldn't visit regularly, that they weren't really informed of, and was conducted during the limited off season when players would have been away?

If the ARLC really wanted player input, they would have run the survey through the clubs, or asked for the ARLPA to ensure they reached a certain number. The ARLC had made their decision already.
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
It was only last year or the year before, a young St Gregs Campbelltown player died from a (illegal) shoulder charge to the chest region during a rugby union game.

Now, I don't really give a shite about g-forces and this evidence (or medical study) v's that or the NFL studies don't relate to the NRL - it is banned, gone - good riddance.

I have heard the same argument continuous from the doomdayers - if you ban the shoulder charge you need to ban tackling, etc, etc. OK, have your way - ban the phucking game.

Anyone interested can go and play rugby union. Done deal - I will talk to the ARLC, a complete ban should be announced within a week or two.

Looking forward to the British/Irish Lions tour.
 

Frailty

First Grade
Messages
9,459
It was only last year or the year before, a young St Gregs Campbelltown player died from a (illegal) shoulder charge to the chest region during a rugby union game.

Of course, neglect to actually address the fact that the kid (who was 16 years old) went to hospital, was sent home and died 3 days after the incident. It demonstrated two things:
- 2 doctors in the hospital were incompetent.
- Shoulder charges don't belong in junior sport with developing bodies - of course Shoulder Charges are banned in Junior League competitions.

Now, I don't really give a shite about g-forces and this evidence (or medical study) v's that or the NFL studies don't relate to the NRL - it is banned, gone - good riddance.

Would you also support banning players jumping to contend for a bomb - more injuries result from that as long as the ARLC said it was so? Glad you don't need evidence for the organising body to change the game for no reason.

I have heard the same argument continuous from the doomdayers - if you ban the shoulder charge you need to ban tackling, etc, etc. OK, have your way - ban the phucking game.

So because people believe removing something that is used to market the game without strong evidence is going to damage the game, we are doomsdayers? Interesting.

Under that sort of logic, you could be considered a little bitch who likes to be told what to do.. Does it make sense? No, but neither does your accusation.

Anyone interested can go and play rugby union. Done deal - I will talk to the ARLC, a complete ban should be announced within a week or two.

Looking forward to the British/Irish Lions tour.

Why would I support Union when the NRL is slowly going there?
 

Springs

First Grade
Messages
5,682
I'm not a passionate supporter of banning it but I can accpet it as its such a minor part of the game. Some musings to some of the points raised -

NFL comparison is irrelevant - The NFL dwarfs the NRL by virtually every measure but there are obvious similarities between the two ? certain amount of plays to get so far, having ball runners being tackled, many with shoulder charges. Unlike the NRL there have been large, long term studies done on the effects of repeated concussions in the NFL. There was a strong correlation with repeat concussions and FATAL brain diseases and suicides later in life. Not a 30% or 50% increase but 300-400% more likely.

Back in 2011 intentional helmet-to-helmet collision were banned. Not only this but defenseless players cannot be hit in the head or neck with the shoulder or forearm. A defenseless player includes passers, kickers, receivers without time to avoid contact, ball carrier whose progress stopped etc.

Is there much difference between padded helmet-to-helmet collisions and non-padded head-to-shoulder collisions and far as trauma goes?

NFL still allows shoulder charges - Aside from a defenseless player, yes, the NFL still allows shoulder charges as a legitimate tackling technique. Would they, however, if there were no helmets or huge shoulder pads?

What about other injuries? Do they not matter? - You can?t compare a knee injury, even a serious career ending one which could also be surgically corrected later, with a FATAL brain disease. There is a difference between injuries likely to inconvenience your life and those likely to kill you. It?s the reason spear tackles are banned. Has anyone died from a spear tackle in the NRL? No? Then why are they banned? You can?t even go beyond horizontal now. Risk mitigation, along with dangerous throws, tripping, crusher tackles etc.

Boxing/MMA is allowed - There is a difference in liability which rests with the insurance companies rather then the governing body. Generally speaking boxing club membership has a reasonably high premium component, which then skyrocket on the individual for pro fights, as well as ironclad waivers. And as others have said the whole raison d?etre is taking head shots. No one plays league for that.

More concussions come from the knee/hip - The onus here is on the defender?s technique. Accidents will always happen with tackles gone wrong but the big difference is intent. A defender doesn?t go into the tackle trying to inflict concussion on himself, but rather the ball carrier. Maybe concussion is not the intent but trying to whack the guy as hard as possible with the shoulder and knowing that concussion is a distinct possibility. The ball carrier doesn?t have much of a say, unlike the tackler.

The Jarrod McCraken incident players were sued, not the NRL - Only because spear tackles were contrary to the rules and deemed foul play.


All 16 doctors supported the proposal. Not a single dissenting voice. Not one. To suggest the ARLC then ignore it is non-sensical. There would?ve been an injunction before the season starts by some medical body or safety advocate now the word is out.

(NLF) Commissioner Roger Goodell spoke at the Harvard School of Public Health, where he trumpeted the league?s efforts to increase the safety of its players and proclaimed that ?medical decisions override everything else.?

Thousands of ex-players are suing the NFL. Compensation may still be sought from the NRL as well in future but if they didn?t draw a line in the sand, in light of the club doctors support, it would be open season, potentially bankrupting the game.

Three retired NFL players received at least $2 million in disability payments as a result of brain trauma injuries from their playing days, according to an article by ESPN and the PBS series ?Frontline.?
The payments were made in the 1990s and early 2000s by the Bell/Rozelle NFL Player Retirement Plan, a committee comprising representatives of the owners, players and NFL commissioner.

As there is currently no such benevolent fund in league the buck will stop with the NRL.

Civilisation is inexorably moving to remove risk and promote safety in all facets of life. It is unavoidable. People may vote with their feet next season, and so be it, but it won?t change this decision. It is done. Time to move on.

Head to shoulder collisions ARE already banned. So whatever difference between them and head-to-head collisions in the NFL are irrelevant, they are both banned.

The G force would still be the same with huge shoulder pads and helmets. Isn't that what the NRL is worried about?

The reason spear tackles are banned is because they drop you directly on your head or neck. Shoulder charges hit the shoulder or chest. The ones that go wrong are already penalised. The equivalent to having normal shoulder charges banned would be having all lifting tackles banned, just in case one goes wrong.
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
Of course, neglect to actually address the fact that the kid (who was 16 years old) went to hospital, was sent home and died 3 days after the incident. It demonstrated two things:
- 2 doctors in the hospital were incompetent.
- Shoulder charges don't belong in junior sport with developing bodies - of course Shoulder Charges are banned in Junior League competitions.



Would you also support banning players jumping to contend for a bomb - more injuries result from that as long as the ARLC said it was so? Glad you don't need evidence for the organising body to change the game for no reason.



So because people believe removing something that is used to market the game without strong evidence is going to damage the game, we are doomsdayers? Interesting.

Under that sort of logic, you could be considered a little bitch who likes to be told what to do.. Does it make sense? No, but neither does your accusation.



Why would I support Union when the NRL is slowly going there?

Whether it was a 16 year old boy being shoulder charged by another 16 year old boy or a 26 year old man being hit by another 26 year old man (which until recently was legal in league); it does not matter - serious damage was done which resulted (the hospital's incompetence is another matter), sadly, in the death of this boy - someone's loved son and a friend too many.

If by banning the shoulder charge and hopefully never seeing another illegal shoulder charge - one player's life is saved over the next XXX number of years, the ARLC has done its job.

I'm stating this now, the current crop of 4-5 year olds in 20 years time will love the game, state how hard and exciting it is and hopefully will have never seen a bloody shoulder charge.
 
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magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
It is. I'm proud of the ARLC for showing they have the ability to withstand criticism and make unpopular decisions when necessary. "player backlash" and "public opinion" don't pay legal bills.

or save players (not just NRL but park footballers, as well) from serious injury.
 
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