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Commission to outlaw 'shoulder charge'

Should the Shoulder Charge be banned?


  • Total voters
    346

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
Because the body at 16 years old is exactly the same as a 26 year olds and can withstand the same amount of force....

BTW, did the ARU get sued for this incident? Or the one I mentioned of the professional in a legal tackle? No... Interesting...

Go away fisherman.

The only doomsday prediction is coming from you - "ban this or get sued".

How would you know what the legal consquences of the lad's passing were or are (compensation or legal proceedings). You truly are slightly below a merkin.
 

Bengal

Juniors
Messages
877
You are possibly right re: legal issue but if by handling the legal issue there is a flow on effect to the welfare/safety issue (deliberate or unintentional), all the more good.
Likewise, with the legal side of this debate somewhat addressed, we'll get to see just how big an issue this thing really is bearing in mind that shoulder charges have been legal for decades with, what I can see, appears to be minimal negative long-term effects on past NRL players. That side of this debate doesn't seem to be getting much of an airing. What's the news out of the ex-player camps, guys going back 10 - 20+ years - wonder how they're holding up especially in regards to brain function. Surely their opinions should hold some sway, they certainly would for me anyway.

was that in a spear tackle?
I don't know. I found out second hand. Spear tackles weren't that common in younger grade footie back in the early eighties.
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
Likewise, with the legal side of this debate somewhat addressed, we'll get to see just how big an issue this thing really is bearing in mind that shoulder charges have been legal for decades with, what I can see, appears to be minimal negative long-term effects on past NRL players. That side of this debate doesn't seem to be getting much of an airing. What's the news out of the ex-player camps, guys going back 10 - 20+ years - wonder how they're holding up especially in regards to brain function. Surely their opinions should hold some sway, they certainly would for me anyway.


I don't know. I found out second hand. Spear tackles weren't that common in younger grade footie back in the early eighties.

I retired in 1990 and to be honest the shoulder charge wasn't really in vogue. It was more used as a defensive ploy, as a defender if you were caught flat footed or the ball runner changed direction you might drop your shoulder as a brace. It seems to have come into play as an attacking-defensive ploy with the change of the defensive line from 5m to 10m and the flat attack of the modern game.

Head highs, stiff arms, all ins and squirrel grips were more the go. It was so innocent:D

Sorry, it was 1991 -maybe the brain does have problems.
 
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BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,738
Yeh you're right player and supporter opinions should be ignored when tinkering with the fabric of the game.
Not always but sometimes popular opinion should be ignored. That's why we have representative parliaments rather than direct democracy. That's why we have presidents and prime ministers instead of putting everything to a vote. And that's why we have a commission instead of just ringing up fans around the country and asking them to vote for what they want.

Some things are just not understood by the average fan and average player. Some things are above them. Including this.

Typical idiot fan/player: I want big boom! I want shoulder charge!
ARLC: Shoulder charges can result in serious long term injury. We have been warned by all 16 club doctors unanimously as well as multiple other experts that shoulder charges are significantly more dangerous than the normal tackle. If we ignore this advice we are vulnerable to multiple lawsuits in the future that could cost the game tens of millions of dollars and put the future health of the game at risk.
Typical idiot fan/player: Don't care about the long term. You're killing rugby league!
ARLC: We're sorry you feel that way but it is our job to lookout for the long term future of the sport of rugby league, we feel this decision is critical to the games future. We feel not taking action now puts the game at serious risk. We understand this is an unpopular decision but it is a very necessary one.
Typical idiot: That's it! Let's march on the NRL!
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
Not always but sometimes popular opinion should be ignored. That's why we have representative parliaments rather than direct democracy. That's why we have presidents and prime ministers instead of putting everything to a vote. And that's why we have a commission instead of just ringing up fans around the country and asking them to vote for what they want.

Some things are just not understood by the average fan and average player. Some things are above them. Including this.

Typical idiot fan/player: I want big boom! I want shoulder charge!
ARLC: Shoulder charges can result in serious long term injury. We have been warned by all 16 club doctors unanimously as well as multiple other experts that shoulder charges are significantly more dangerous than the normal tackle. If we ignore this advice we are vulnerable to multiple lawsuits in the future that could cost the game tens of millions of dollars and put the future health of the game at risk.
Typical idiot fan/player: Don't care about the long term. You're killing rugby league!
ARLC: We're sorry you feel that way but it is our job to lookout for the long term future of the sport of rugby league, we feel this decision is critical to the games future. We feel not taking action now puts the game at serious risk. We understand this is an unpopular decision but it is a very necessary one.
Typical idiot: That's it! Let's march on the NRL!

:lol: No bad for you BM
 

Bengal

Juniors
Messages
877
It seems to have come into play as an attacking-defensive ploy with the change of the defensive line from 5m to 10m and the flat attack of the modern game.
That makes sense as to why there's largely silence from ex-players.

Head highs, stiff arms, all ins and squirrel grips were more the go. It was so innocent:D
The prevalence of head high tackling back in the 80's and 90's especially was a huge blight on the game. Especially disliked the Des Hasler 'jump' style of tackle and short guys like Alan Cann continually attacking the head of opponents. It's great that this aspect of the game has been cleaned up a lot in recent years primarily because they were once common place. Shoulder charges, especially shoulder charges gone wrong are not any were as near prevalent. More to the point, there's other ways of addressing this tackle than simply banning it namely limiting it to one on one confrontation, and if practical, a front-on only stoush at that. Stiffer penalities of course is another but given its prevalence, and more importantly the (positive) leverage this game derives from this tackle, until such time that this tackle really does impact on player welfare (and not just borrowing from evidence derived from another sport) then it shoud have stayed legal.
 

Springs

First Grade
Messages
5,682
No ex-player has ever wanted to ban the shoulder charge because of apparent brain damage.

The two current or former players that I remember who wanted them banned were Brett Hodgson a while ago and Craig Young, who had a bitch because his son got hit, and then his son came out and said he didn't want them banned.
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
That makes sense as to why there's largely silence from ex-players.

The prevalence of head high tackling back in the 80's and 90's especially was a huge blight on the game. Especially disliked the Des Hasler 'jump' style of tackle and short guys like Alan Cann continually attacking the head of opponents. It's great that this aspect of the game has been cleaned up a lot in recent years primarily because they were once common place. Shoulder charges, especially shoulder charges gone wrong are not any were as near prevalent. More to the point, there's other ways of addressing this tackle than simply banning it namely limiting it to one on one confrontation, and if practical, a front-on only stoush at that. Stiffer penalities of course is another but given its prevalence, and more importantly the (positive) leverage this game derives from this tackle, until such time that this tackle really does impact on player welfare (and not just borrowing from evidence derived from another sport) then it shoud have stayed legal.

Well argued, but when 16 medicos and a leading surgeon say "it is not on" - "it is gone". No amount of hysterics and tears from fans will change it. As I said in 20 years time the average 25 year old fan will still be saying, "this is the greatest game of all" and hopefully, have never seen a shoulder gharge.
 

Bengal

Juniors
Messages
877
Typical idiot fan/player: I want big boom! I want shoulder charge!
I want my game to be No 1 in Australasia and who knows where else thereafter. It should have been No 1 years ago but self-interest (we're too tribal) forever seems to hold us back. No 1 - that's where I'm coming from. What I want has just become so much harder. We've neutered our biggest selling point, our most common highlight. Side-steps, flick passes, intelligent passes, off-loads, fancy kicks and steam-rolling runs, they're all well and good, but they don't grab peoples attention like a big hit. And sure we'll still get the odd legal big hit, much like Union are able to conjure up from time to time, but its doubtful that media will be playing a weekly montage of big attention grabbing hits from now on. And that's a huge setback for advancing this sport towards my end goal.
 

Bengal

Juniors
Messages
877
Well argued, but when 16 medicos and a leading surgeon say "it is not on" - "it is gone". No amount of hysterics and tears from fans will change it. As I said in 20 years time the average 25 year old fan will still be saying, "this is the greatest game of all" and hopefully, have never seen a shoulder gharge.
As argued earlier regarding agendas, of which this is, we can set an agenda to fit whatever outcome we choose. We can find 1600 medico's that'll attest to the likelihood of long-term injury resulting from shoulder charges is no more likely than that for many other aspects of the tackle process. What do we do then! This change has been rail-roaded through without little critical analysis and that's the big scary thing about all this as far as I'm concerned. Just how bright (or invested in this game) are our 'powers that be'.

As for your peak into the future, that is indeed a saving grace. Everything becomes relative. But the present isn't look as bright now as it did a few days back. Our competitors have just been given a decent leg-up. Boy that irks me.
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
I reckon, I'm done and dusted with this particular forum. I have put all my beliefs, examples and opinions forward, I been been splat at, pissed on and blindsided for these but I have survived. So to all the ankles out there, Bengal has shown you how to argue a point without becoming moronic, so until next time.
 
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Billythekid

First Grade
Messages
6,848
Well argued, but when 16 medicos and a leading surgeon say "it is not on" - "it is gone". No amount of hysterics and tears from fans will change it. As I said in 20 years time the average 25 year old fan will still be saying, "this is the greatest game of all" and hopefully, have never seen a shoulder gharge.

You can get anyone with even an ounce of knowledge about the human body and game of rugby league (hell they don't even need that) and they can tell you that it will do long term damage to your body. It's a high impact sport and that's just the way it is.

It's funny that the focus seems to be on head injuries. How often do you see concussions? Constantly, every damn week. How often are they from shoulder charges? Pretty much never. They are pretty much always the result of a player going in low for the tackle and misjudging it. Should we ban players from tackling low like that? Because it's a much bigger issue in terms of player safety.

This move is also completely unnecessary to prevent these injuries. Just give big suspensions whenever someone gets hit in the head and that will solve the problem just as well without causing all these issues.
 

RHCP

Bench
Messages
4,784
I am certain 16 doctors would agree running into multiple 110kg men at full pace isn't good for your health either. Outlaw the tackle!
 

afinalsin666

First Grade
Messages
8,163
george rose ‏@gorgeousgrose
Whether its banned or not @D_LUSSICK and @Rex_tokz can expect at least one big boy flyin outta the line for a shoulder charge when we clash!

george rose ‏@gorgeousgrose
With the banning of the shoulder charge I will now focus on backflip training and freakish try scoring training. For highlight reel purposes

Ryan Hoffman ‏@RyanHoffman12
Banning the shoulder charge is going 2 result in some boring highlights packages. We run in2 people 4 a living. #dontbantheshouldercharge

Mark Geyer ‏@markMGgeyer
Looks like the shoulder charge in the @nrl is history. Why not just increase the penalty if it goes wrong? Or better still, reward boot lace

Sonny Bill Williams ‏@SonnyBWilliams
You need good timing and technique to pull of a shoulder charge simply put if you can't do it don't try... This is league not tiddlywinks!!



For whatever reason, be it they were on holidays, or they don't check the union site often, or whatever. The players are making themselves heard now! The rule isn't set in stone, so it is not too late to take into account player and fan feedback.

And in before "But it's for the players health, screw the fans!" bullsh*t, how do you think they got a billion dollars? It certainly wasn't any of the merkins in the boardroom, it was the players playing, and the FANS WATCHING!

And the whole "Pffft, you think you know more than doctors" line, I don't know more about writing a TV Show than the writers but i'll still complain when it gets bad. I'm a goddamn spectator, and the are taking the second most spectacular part of our game away.

And dismissing player and public concerns as quickly as they have should enrage us!
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,971
Just like a boxer would find it hard to win a compo case for brain damage due to punches to the head being an integral part of that sport. An ex-league player would find it hard to win a case, say for my injuries due to tackling and being tackled is an integral part of rugby league. The participants accept the risks.

While boxing is a full contact sport from the waist up, league is not.
Therefore, the possiblity of brain damage is not an accepted risk, it was the only action they could have taken give the medical studies and legal cases coming out of the States.

What. League is very much a full contact sport. Or at least was, until 2 days ago.

I think the feed back issue with NRL Players shows that no one actually seriously thought they would consider banning it. To now ignore the players because they 'sent an email' shows a level of incompetence and contempt for the stakeholders.

The statistics provided only supprt the fact that injury possibility is actually not very high at all and seem to be "massaged" to even get the results they have.

Shane matiske saying the shoulder charge is not an important part of our game also shows that they think stats determine importance. If there is three hundred tackles in a game, 5 tries and a BIG shoulder charge, you can bet it is the hit that will be repeated on youtube and in forums.

Saying the shoulder charge is not an important part of our game shows he has no idea what he's talking about and is basicaly gross incompetence as the CEO of the NRL as far as i'm concerned.
 

joshreading

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,720
Games not over quite yet. The RLPA wants to talk. ALOT of players are ticked off. You can see Anthony Watmough retweet my petition. I don't any player has come out in favour of the change.

In addition, there has been little consideration to stiffer penalties, the reality of how rare the injuries are (3.5 injuries in 2012) and what the impact of a reduced interchange would be (Williams at the Raiders noted he would go for reduced interchange any day especially as a little guy - which would open the game and mean we could keep the Shoulder Charge)

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/bre...r-nrl-shoulder-charge-ban-20121122-29soo.html
 

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