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Debate: Two-Team series or Tournament?

Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
Origin is the pinnacle of RL rep football in terms of rivalry and build-up, and i believe that is largely to do with the format of the competition; only 2 teams playing 3 games that allow the series to build interest over several weeks. We are in the middle of an NZ-England 3-match series, and i think we can agree it has been brilliant (a shame they arent going into Game 3 tied though)

My question to the forum is this: Should International RL be looking to reduce the number of +3 team tournaments in favour of the 2 Team/3 Game series?

I think, in the short term at least, we definitely should. Spend a few years focusing on the "2 Team series" format to build up some rivalries and see if that has a feed in effect on the bigger tournaments. My feeling about International RL right now is that we SAY there are rivalries between team but it is never SHOWN to the fans. I feel like the big tournaments (WCs, 4 Nations) are trying to build a house without foundations; these rivalries form are at the heart of any tournament and RL just doesnt have any ATM...
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
Origin is the pinnacle of RL rep football in terms of rivalry and build-up, and i believe that is largely to do with the format of the competition; only 2 teams playing 3 games that allow the series to build interest over several weeks. We are in the middle of an NZ-England 3-match series, and i think we can agree it has been brilliant (a shame they arent going into Game 3 tied though)

My question to the forum is this: Should International RL be looking to reduce the number of +3 team tournaments in favour of the 2 Team/3 Game series?

I think, in the short term at least, we definitely should. Spend a few years focusing on the "2 Team series" format to build up some rivalries and see if that has a feed in effect on the bigger tournaments. My feeling about International RL right now is that we SAY there are rivalries between team but it is never SHOWN to the fans. I feel like the big tournaments (WCs, 4 Nations) are trying to build a house without foundations; these rivalries form are at the heart of any tournament and RL just doesnt have any ATM...

There is no reason we can't have both. 2 teams playing a test series doesn't mean every other team has to sit out.

We definitely can't get rid of the World Cup, we already have got rid of the Four Nations which is the right choice if we actually expand instead of doing f**k all. The World Cup is great. Four Nations are limiting.

The series has not been brilliant, the second game was but the first game was mediocre and crowds have been disappointing.

Australia, England and NZ should all play 3-game series against each other once per cycle, we should have a World Cup and another expanded inter-continental tournament and each of and there needs to be tournaments where 1 or 2 of the big 3 play in the European Championship or Pacific Championship.
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,546
Origin in RL works because the two are evenly matched and there are only two RL states in Australia

Origin when it was used in AFL struggled they had 3 big states and had issues when they tried to bring in the other states. RL would have the same issue

But 3 test series v 4 or 6 team tournament etc

Lets look at soccer and RU

In soccer its World Cup or Regional Cups and other 2 years are qualifiers. With only 7 international rep weekends there is no room for series

For RU its a World Cup then also regional tournaments. They struggle to fit in a series and only add one game to create a series as such. But the Oct-Nov period is used to go to Europe and play internationals and a 5 test series against a range of countries works well

RL however has a big 3 which resembles the cricket where a test series works well

So I suspect we need a balance of both

Where the big 3 should play each other in a 3 test series. But World Cup still needs to be top of the tree.

I like the Oct-Nov period being dedicated to internationals with a final in the last week of Nov or 1st week of Dec

So looking at the top tier first post season

Year 4 is World Cup year
Year 3 RLWC qualifiers
Year 2 would be a 6 nations
Year 1 6N qualifiers

I would have
- Australia tour England in Year 3
- NZ tour England in Year 1

But I would also add mid year rep period. Minimum a rep fortnight but I prefer 2 rep fortnights during SOO

Year 2 mid season would be a England tour of NZ and 1 test v Oz
Pacific Cups / Euro Cups would be played in these windows

End of season periods should be used for Pacific Shield / Euro Shield / Americas Cup and Asia Cup and Africa Cups
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,407
I like 3 game series better. The rivalry builds up game on game on and off the field. The third match is going to be awesome and real blood and thunder I reckon after the grub and niggle of game 2!

There's a place for a 4nations but only once every 4 or 5 years imo.
3 match series should be the main stay of the big threes calendars
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
5,276
The four nations should not have been scrapped. It should exist and be played every four years between world cups. The Pacific Cup and Euro Cup the year before act as qualifying tournaments. If we feel we need to expand it then do so, make it a 6 nations but don't scrap a tournament that was just starting to gain some traction FFS.

Imagine a four nations next year between Aus, NZ, Eng & Tonga - it would be the most competitive ever with a fair chance that the Kangaroos could miss the final for the first time ever.
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
The four nations should not have been scrapped. It should exist and be played every four years between world cups. The Pacific Cup and Euro Cup the year before act as qualifying tournaments. If we feel we need to expand it then do so, make it a 6 nations but don't scrap a tournament that was just starting to gain some traction FFS.

Imagine a four nations next year between Aus, NZ, Eng & Tonga - it would be the most competitive ever with a fair chance that the Kangaroos could miss the final for the first time ever.

And everyone else just sits the year out? The 8-team Confed Cup is the way to go, as well as England joining the European Championship once every 4y and NZ and/or Australia joining the Pacific Championship once every 4y.
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
5,276
And everyone else just sits the year out? The 8-team Confed Cup is the way to go, as well as England joining the European Championship once every 4y and NZ and/or Australia joining the Pacific Championship once every 4y.

They don't have to sit the year out there can be Euro and Pacific Cups run at the same time. I'm all for a confed cup but there is not one scheduled and until the four nations is replaced by a better tournament it should remain.
 

Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
I stopped reading after the first sentence...

Origin is only the pinnacle of rep RL to two sets of players from two states on the east coast of Australia....to everyone else in the world..its not!

I think you missed my point...

Obviously Origin isnt the highest achievement for a player. But in terms of build-up, rivalry and spectical, Origin is RL premium (Seriously, tell us one other rivalry in the RL world that comes anywhere close to Origin). Im not saying their is anything special about the States, it is clearly the format.

RU is a joke in Australia, but Bledisloe Cup gets more interest than any Kangaroos game ive ever soon.

So why not learn from the most watched RL game in the world and see if we can reproduce the event with national teams?
 

Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
Origin in RL works because the two are evenly matched and there are only two RL states in Australia

I dont believe a perfectly even contest is necesary. QLD won 11 of the last 12 years and Origin has never been bigger.

On top of that, this format is the opportunity for NZ and England to form proper combinations and really begin to challenge Australia regularly. The 3 game series is a chance for teams to lose Game 1 and try to fix the problems a week later instead of a year later.

So looking at the top tier first post season

Year 4 is World Cup year
Year 3 RLWC qualifiers
Year 2 would be a 6 nations
Year 1 6N qualifiers


I would have
- Australia tour England in Year 3
- NZ tour England in Year 1

But I would also add mid year rep period. Minimum a rep fortnight but I prefer 2 rep fortnights during SOO

Year 2 mid season would be a England tour of NZ and 1 test v Oz
Pacific Cups / Euro Cups would be played in these windows

End of season periods should be used for Pacific Shield / Euro Shield / Americas Cup and Asia Cup and Africa Cups

Not bad...

Alternately, it could look sometheing like:

Year 1: Australia-NZ series, European Cup
Year 2: World 9s
Year 3: Australia/NZ-England, Pacific Cup
Year 4: World Cup

The 9s could function as the "year off" for any of the big Nations. Even with B-list teams, it would still be a great even...
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
They don't have to sit the year out there can be Euro and Pacific Cups run at the same time. I'm all for a confed cup but there is not one scheduled and until the four nations is replaced by a better tournament it should remain.

But there is not a 4 nations scheduled either. Euro and Pacific Cups are not enough for these teams to grow, they need to be playing tier 1 opposition at least every other year. And not just one tier 2 team, all tier 2 teams need tier 1 competition.
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
5,276
But there is not a 4 nations scheduled either. Euro and Pacific Cups are not enough for these teams to grow, they need to be playing tier 1 opposition at least every other year. And not just one tier 2 team, all tier 2 teams need tier 1 competition.

I know it is not scheduled. I'm arguing that it should be (i.e. never have been scrapped without a replacement tournament). I see what you are saying about access to the teir 1 nations but I believe they have to earn the right by proving their strength and winning through to a four nations (or six if we want to expand it to include more nations).
 

Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
There is no reason we can't have both. 2 teams playing a test series doesn't mean every other team has to sit out.

We definitely can't get rid of the World Cup, we already have got rid of the Four Nations which is the right choice if we actually expand instead of doing f**k all. The World Cup is great. Four Nations are limiting.

The series has not been brilliant, the second game was but the first game was mediocre and crowds have been disappointing.


Australia, England and NZ should all play 3-game series against each other once per cycle, we should have a World Cup and another expanded inter-continental tournament and each of and there needs to be tournaments where 1 or 2 of the big 3 play in the European Championship or Pacific Championship.

This was my whole point...

The first match is always pretty "meh". Even with Origin, if the series finished there after one game, it would only be remembered as a shitty joke.

Weeks 2 and 3 allow combinations to form and teams to adjust to the opposition. And, for the fans, it puts each game into the context of a larger story.

We would only need them to happen once every 4-year cycle, but i think these 2-team comps would add so much to the bigger comps as well...
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
I know it is not scheduled. I'm arguing that it should be (i.e. never have been scrapped without a replacement tournament). I see what you are saying about access to the teir 1 nations but I believe they have to earn the right by proving their strength and winning through to a four nations (or six if we want to expand it to include more nations).

And I'm arguing that an 8 team confed cup should be scheduled. It's pointless saying you're all for a confed cup but it's not scheduled so we should have a 4 nations instead, that doesn't make sense.

In the past Euro and Pacific Cups have meant f**k all. The countries play about half-strength. Most tier 2 nations have 5 or 6 players that make them competitive, they need regular high profile games so players will stick with them. It's the difference between Tonga at the Pacific tests last year and Tonga at the World Cup. It's why Scotland had 10-12 NRL/ESL players at the 4 Nations and World Cup and none for the Euro Cup this year.

We need bigger tournaments to involve more of these nations. A European Six Nations involving England, France, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. A Pacific Six Nations with NZ, Tonga, PNG, Samoa, Fiji, Cook Islands. A Confed Cup with the big 3 + 2 pacific + 2 euro + Americas/Middle-East. Tours where the Kangaroos/Lions/Kiwis play European and Pacific nations as integral parts of the tours. Regular events like these will do much more to strengthen tier 2 nations than just 4 Nations + Euro/Pacific Cup every year. Four Nations every year is the reason Tonga didn't play any tier 1 nations for years before the World Cup.
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
This was my whole point...

The first match is always pretty "meh". Even with Origin, if the series finished there after one game, it would only be remembered as a shitty joke.

Weeks 2 and 3 allow combinations to form and teams to adjust to the opposition. And, for the fans, it puts each game into the context of a larger story.

We would only need them to happen once every 4-year cycle, but i think these 2-team comps would add so much to the bigger comps as well...

Disagree. Origin I half the time is the best match of the year.
 

Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
Disagree. Origin I half the time is the best match of the year.

Not the same thing. It is impossible to remove Game 1 from the context of the 3 game series. It is and always will be the first act of the 3 act story...

Game 1 might be the highest quality in terms of technical game-play, but if it was a genuine standalone exhibition game like the ANZAC test, we would probably treat it with as much respect and interest as the ANZAC Test received (i dont think its a coincidence that the game is in the historic dust bin while the f*cking Bledislow is still going strong).
 
Last edited:

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
Not the same thing. It is impossible to remove Game 1 from the context of the 3 game series. It is and always will be the first act of the 3 act story...

Game 1 might be the highest quality in terms of technical game-play, but if it was a genuine standalone exhibition game like the ANZAC test, we would probably treat it with as much respect and interest as the ANZAC Test received (i dont think its a coincidence that the game is in the historic dust bin while the f*cking Bledislow is still going strong).

What has this got to do anything? I was refuting the claim you said that this NZ/England series has been 'brilliant' - there's been one good game.
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
5,276
And I'm arguing that an 8 team confed cup should be scheduled. It's pointless saying you're all for a confed cup but it's not scheduled so we should have a 4 nations instead, that doesn't make sense.

In the past Euro and Pacific Cups have meant f**k all. The countries play about half-strength. Most tier 2 nations have 5 or 6 players that make them competitive, they need regular high profile games so players will stick with them. It's the difference between Tonga at the Pacific tests last year and Tonga at the World Cup. It's why Scotland had 10-12 NRL/ESL players at the 4 Nations and World Cup and none for the Euro Cup this year.

We need bigger tournaments to involve more of these nations. A European Six Nations involving England, France, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. A Pacific Six Nations with NZ, Tonga, PNG, Samoa, Fiji, Cook Islands. A Confed Cup with the big 3 + 2 pacific + 2 euro + Americas/Middle-East. Tours where the Kangaroos/Lions/Kiwis play European and Pacific nations as integral parts of the tours. Regular events like these will do much more to strengthen tier 2 nations than just 4 Nations + Euro/Pacific Cup every year. Four Nations every year is the reason Tonga didn't play any tier 1 nations for years before the World Cup.

Fair enough. Oh and I agree - if the confed cup was announced tomorrow I would jump on board 100%. It is just frustrating that we have neither at the moment. Tournaments are the only thing the Kangaroos seem to get out of bed for anymore, so with no tournaments, they'll just play NZ once a year and go back to sleep. It is disappointing. There is only so many times NZ can play England until the crowds get bored of it - which is what might be happenining in England at the moment with the lower than expected attendances.
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,546
World 9s needs to occur in the pre-season window year 1

2 years away from the Commonwealth Games 9s. Year 3

These two can go on the road internationally

You can play NRL 9s with 16 teams in years 2 and 4

This goes on the road in Australia / NZ returning back to the stsrting state after 6 events
 
Messages
2,839
Year 1
Pre Season: NRL/Super League 9s
Mid Season: Regional Test Series i.e. NZ v Tonga, Samoa v Fiji etc + State of Origin
Post Season: Pacific, European, Med, American, African, Asian Championships, plus second tier 'Shields' where applicable.

Year 2
Pre Season: 9s World Club Championships (top 8 teams from NRL and Super League) with view to expand to include clubs from other parts of the world.
Mid Season: Regional Test Series i.e. NZ v Fiji, PNG v Tonga etc. + State of Origin
Post Season: RLIF Trophy (World Champions, Hosts + winners of each Championship previous year) If there is some doubling up i.e. World Champion is also the host, then next highest ranked team from that region. Those who don't qualify can tour/play in series.

Year 3
Pre Season: 9s Regional Championships
Mid Season; World Cup Qualifying (only Champions and Hosts qualify automatically. State of Origin to take place but Australia must play in these qualifiers if they havent qualified automatically already.
Post Season: Remaining qualifying matches + Tours.

Year 4
Pre Season: 9s World Cup
Mid Season: Pre World Cup 'Magic Weekends' inovlivng those who have qualified to be held over three consecutive weekends in host country. i.e.
1. England v Samoa
France v Ireland

2. New Zealand v Lebanon
Tonga v Italy
Canada v Hong Kong

3. Australia v Fiji
Scotland v USA
PNG v Canada

Post Season: Rugby League World Cup

I like the idea of countries being penalised for not playing a minimum amount of games per year. I think 5 is a good number. This shit isn't rocket science.
 

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