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jaseg

Juniors
Messages
2,274
No they don't, only the ones with the arm strength to do so make that throw. That ball was thrown about 35 yards on a ridiculously flat trajectory into a tight window.


I've already said he has bad footwork. Mahomes disagrees with you on throwing off platform though. Funnily enough, you're advocating Murray who actually has some similar questions over his footwork as well especially when rolling out to the sideline he has a tendency throw without his back leg costing accuracy and velocity.


Locks tape is a lot better than Allens in a conference that is much tougher. Allen has far better physical traits though.


I didn’t mention Murray or his size. Murray was a one year starter with a great line and receiver core. He is going to a team with arguably the worst line in the game. Given his play style it is not an easy position to be entering in. Obviously he has Kingsbury, but it is questionable how good he'll be at the NFL level, he was fired in college for a reason. Murray has played basically zero time under center (like many college QBs), I don't know what kind of leader he is but it doesn't appear to come naturally to him and has extremely limited tape. If Arizona don't pick Murray, he could have easily slid out of the first as well (it would have been undeserved), such is the varying opinion of him. With that said, his vision is undeniable and play design from Kingsbury will be very similar to Riley as they're from the same tree of coaching.

Compared to Haskins who has similar questions around playing time, Haskins has a bit more of a pro-style play to his game so it is easier to imagine the transition.

Oook. First up, yes, just about every NFL QB makes that throw. It's why they're in the NFL. Don't delude yourself, that was an NFL throw and a good one, but not a screamer that somehow separates him into a different category. It's impressive - but unless it's paired with a higher degree of consistency across his game than shown so far Lock becomes Josh Allen light. High end plays (though not as good) with big drops in play between them (though not as low). Still almost certainly an upgrade over Flacco tbf... it's why I don't mind the pick at that spot at all.

Mahomes is good off platform - and better when he throws from a clean pocket with balance. Which was my point. There isn't a good QB in the NFL that is better throwing off platform than clean and on balance - there's a reason the Chiefs passer rating dropped just over 60 points when the opposition put him under pressure. Highlight plays aren't the whole game.

As for Murray, the 1-year starter thing is a concern - about the only one I have of him (Mayfield didn't play under center either, the NFL as a whole plays something like 70% of snaps out of shotgun - so it's not a huge thing anyway - and Kingsbury isn't going to put him under center). Suggesting he could have slid out of the first is just laughable... no. Not even close.

Most of the other stuff? You're not talking about the prospect mate, you're talking about a team. But while we're at it, let's have a look and see if the outlook is quite as bleak as you make it out to be.

Kingsbury - struggled in recruitment on defense (not an issue in the NFL), and defense was largely the reason he was fired... to be clear, he's an offense guy. He gets a defense with Pat Pete, Swearinger, a shiny new CB in Murphy, Chandler Jones etc etc..

OL - Had 7 season-ending injuries last year (Cunningham, Humphries, Iupati, Pugh, Shipley, Vujnovich, Wetzel - that's 4 starters and 3 backups), get those guys back (well, the ones that are returning), and then adds Marcus Gilbert, JR Sweezy & Lamont Gaillard to the group, among others. Perhaps the biggest addition though should be familiar to you as a Broncos fan, Sean Kugler - had the Broncos iOL performing above expectations (given injuries to the two best players there in Paradis & Leary).

They also added Andy Isabella.. probably the real top speed receiver in the draft. And now Maxx Williams... underrated TE in Baltimore.

So I don't think it's quite as bad a situation, really. The biggest issue for the Cards is going to be schedule I suspect... the NFCW could be nasty, the AFCN will definitely be nasty, and the NFCS.. well, it's a conference with the Saints & Falcons, and the worst team looks a whole lot better with Arians coming in.
 

Firey_Dragon

Coach
Messages
12,099
Oook. First up, yes, just about every NFL QB makes that throw. It's why they're in the NFL. Don't delude yourself, that was an NFL throw and a good one, but not a screamer that somehow separates him into a different category. It's impressive - but unless it's paired with a higher degree of consistency across his game than shown so far Lock becomes Josh Allen light. High end plays (though not as good) with big drops in play between them (though not as low). Still almost certainly an upgrade over Flacco tbf... it's why I don't mind the pick at that spot at all.
I’m not deluded. I didn’t say it separated him into any category, there are a number of qbs in the league that can’t make that throw though. We were stuck with one of them last year.

Mahomes is good off platform - and better when he throws from a clean pocket with balance. Which was my point. There isn't a good QB in the NFL that is better throwing off platform than clean and on balance - there's a reason the Chiefs passer rating dropped just over 60 points when the opposition put him under pressure. Highlight plays aren't the whole game.
I’m still missing your point. QBs are better with no pressure and a clean pocket as well. No shit. Mahomes is still pretty damn accurate off platform.

As for Murray, the 1-year starter thing is a concern - about the only one I have of him (Mayfield didn't play under center either, the NFL as a whole plays something like 70% of snaps out of shotgun - so it's not a huge thing anyway - and Kingsbury isn't going to put him under center). Suggesting he could have slid out of the first is just laughable... no. Not even close.

Most of the other stuff? You're not talking about the prospect mate, you're talking about a team. But while we're at it, let's have a look and see if the outlook is quite as bleak as you make it out to be.

Kingsbury - struggled in recruitment on defense (not an issue in the NFL), and defense was largely the reason he was fired... to be clear, he's an offense guy. He gets a defense with Pat Pete, Swearinger, a shiny new CB in Murphy, Chandler Jones etc etc..

OL - Had 7 season-ending injuries last year (Cunningham, Humphries, Iupati, Pugh, Shipley, Vujnovich, Wetzel - that's 4 starters and 3 backups), get those guys back (well, the ones that are returning), and then adds Marcus Gilbert, JR Sweezy & Lamont Gaillard to the group, among others. Perhaps the biggest addition though should be familiar to you as a Broncos fan, Sean Kugler - had the Broncos iOL performing above expectations (given injuries to the two best players there in Paradis & Leary).

They also added Andy Isabella.. probably the real top speed receiver in the draft. And now Maxx Williams... underrated TE in Baltimore.

So I don't think it's quite as bad a situation, really. The biggest issue for the Cards is going to be schedule I suspect... the NFCW could be nasty, the AFCN will definitely be nasty, and the NFCS.. well, it's a conference with the Saints & Falcons, and the worst team looks a whole lot better with Arians
Why are you only including one of your coaching hires from the Broncos? Kugler is a good coach. Vance Joseph is not and he was a shit 1 year coordinator for the Dolphins as well.

Defense was absolutely why Kingsbury was fired, but as a head coach, you're accountable for performance on both sides of the ball. He only had 2 out of 6 winning seasons, and less than .500 overall. I don't know why you seem to miraculously think that will get better overnight in a tougher league.

As for where Murray gets drafted, outside of the Raiders who were a 10% chance I have no idea who else would have picked him in the 1st. It was widely reported many teams didn’t even have him on their board, I doubt the Dolphins, Redskins, Giants take the punt, Broncos definitely don't. I also don't know why you're persistent on comparing to Mayfield, they are very different players and Mayfield's best attribute is his leadership.

Murray was projected as a 2nd rounder up until the combine, then flew up the charts as rumors of the Cardinals being interested kicked in, largely because people weren't even sure if he was serious about the NFL, but I don't know why you're pretending like he was always regarded as the best QB in this draft. Haskins up until 3 months ago was predicted to be the 1st to go, he dropped to 15. Lock was projected to be top 10, he dropped to 42. Virtually no one had Jones as a 1st rounder. This draft was the perfect case of wildly varying opinions on the top QB between organizations and very few QB needy teams. If reports are to be believed, a number of teams had Grier ahead of Murray.
 

jaseg

Juniors
Messages
2,274
I’m not deluded. I didn’t say it separated him into any category, there are a number of qbs in the league that can’t make that throw though. We were stuck with one of them last year.


I’m still missing your point. QBs are better with no pressure and a clean pocket as well. No shit. Mahomes is still pretty damn accurate off platform.


Why are you only including one of your coaching hires from the Broncos? Kugler is a good coach. Vance Joseph is not and he was a shit 1 year coordinator for the Dolphins as well.

Defense was absolutely why Kingsbury was fired, but as a head coach, you're accountable for performance on both sides of the ball. He only had 2 out of 6 winning seasons, and less than .500 overall. I don't know why you seem to miraculously think that will get better overnight in a tougher league.

As for where Murray gets drafted, outside of the Raiders who were a 10% chance I have no idea who else would have picked him in the 1st. It was widely reported many teams didn’t even have him on their board, I doubt the Dolphins, Redskins, Giants take the punt, Broncos definitely don't. I also don't know why you're persistent on comparing to Mayfield, they are very different players and Mayfield's best attribute is his leadership.

Murray was projected as a 2nd rounder up until the combine, then flew up the charts as rumors of the Cardinals being interested kicked in, largely because people weren't even sure if he was serious about the NFL, but I don't know why you're pretending like he was always regarded as the best QB in this draft. Haskins up until 3 months ago was predicted to be the 1st to go, he dropped to 15. Lock was projected to be top 10, he dropped to 42. Virtually no one had Jones as a 1st rounder. This draft was the perfect case of wildly varying opinions on the top QB between organizations and very few QB needy teams. If reports are to be believed, a number of teams had Grier ahead of Murray.

So... you've picked a guy who shouldn't be starting as your example of an NFL starter who can't make the throw? Come on. That's not the standard you want Lock to be.

The point should be clear - every QB is better when not off balance. Drew Lock puts himself off balance unnecessarily far too often. No matter if he's good relative to many other QBs in that situation, he's still putting himself at a disadvantage doing it, so it's a bad thing. "No shit."

Kingsbury was a bad recruiter (mind you, it's not easy to recruit for TTU anyway) - that's not an issue in the NFL, as I said. Joseph isn't great, but he's an upgrade on every DC Kingsbury has worked with... and the bigger thing is the talent on that side of the ball. You know how many 4 star (because TTU never recruited a 5 star anything while Kingsbury was there) recruits they got on defense during his tenure? 1. Not per year, 1 total. At least they averaged about 1 per year on offense.

Kingsbury was hired to simply do the thing he's good at - have his offense score points. HC was the required way to get him, as he had already had the USC OC position and needed to be offered better to be able to be interviewed I believe. I don't know why you think it's a miracle that a guy in a better position over the things he can't control (and recruiting, which he could in college and was bad at) ends up with a better record?

You're trusting reported interest? Lol. Why would teams leak that info out, and strengthen either the Cards resolve to take him or to ask for more in any trade if they were sticking with Rosen?

Haskins was #1 in the media because people are dumb and Kyler is short. Simple as that. It wasn't a reflection of reality. Raiders 10% chance? Come on. That's silly - Gruden takes his guy there, and even if he didn't, he'd have to pass on a guy he loved 3 times. Even if they don't get him, I agree it's a no from Denver & Giants, but the Dolphins and Bengals seem almost certain to go grab him. Redskins no, they had Snyder take over day 1. Then you're looking at teams with later picks and old QBs... Chargers, Pats, a trade up by the Saints... hell, a trade up by the Cowboys wouldn't have shocked me, given Dak is just ok, on the last year of his rookie deal and seems to be headed for a showdown RE his contract amount.

Oh, and I'm not a Cardinals fan.
 

Firey_Dragon

Coach
Messages
12,099
So... you've picked a guy who shouldn't be starting as your example of an NFL starter who can't make the throw? Come on. That's not the standard you want Lock to be.

The point should be clear - every QB is better when not off balance. Drew Lock puts himself off balance unnecessarily far too often. No matter if he's good relative to many other QBs in that situation, he's still putting himself at a disadvantage doing it, so it's a bad thing. "No shit."

Kingsbury was a bad recruiter (mind you, it's not easy to recruit for TTU anyway) - that's not an issue in the NFL, as I said. Joseph isn't great, but he's an upgrade on every DC Kingsbury has worked with... and the bigger thing is the talent on that side of the ball. You know how many 4 star (because TTU never recruited a 5 star anything while Kingsbury was there) recruits they got on defense during his tenure? 1. Not per year, 1 total. At least they averaged about 1 per year on offense.

Kingsbury was hired to simply do the thing he's good at - have his offense score points. HC was the required way to get him, as he had already had the USC OC position and needed to be offered better to be able to be interviewed I believe. I don't know why you think it's a miracle that a guy in a better position over the things he can't control (and recruiting, which he could in college and was bad at) ends up with a better record?

You're trusting reported interest? Lol. Why would teams leak that info out, and strengthen either the Cards resolve to take him or to ask for more in any trade if they were sticking with Rosen?

Haskins was #1 in the media because people are dumb and Kyler is short. Simple as that. It wasn't a reflection of reality. Raiders 10% chance? Come on. That's silly - Gruden takes his guy there, and even if he didn't, he'd have to pass on a guy he loved 3 times. Even if they don't get him, I agree it's a no from Denver & Giants, but the Dolphins and Bengals seem almost certain to go grab him. Redskins no, they had Snyder take over day 1. Then you're looking at teams with later picks and old QBs... Chargers, Pats, a trade up by the Saints... hell, a trade up by the Cowboys wouldn't have shocked me, given Dak is just ok, on the last year of his rookie deal and seems to be headed for a showdown RE his contract amount.

Oh, and I'm not a Cardinals fan.
Nah you’re just someone who likes to write essays about nothing.

This discussion is going nowhere
 

legend

Coach
Messages
15,150
I was there at Mile High the day before he died. They've built a mini mile High stadium in the car park.

They were setting up for Garth Brooks.

Got me a Cortland Sutton jersey to add to my collection. #14

Had a few Shane Ray jerseys at a discounted price. :)
 

legend

Coach
Messages
15,150
a sad start to his professional career
He was only put on IR to create a roster spot. He can be taken off within eight weeks but he is far too raw to play if Flacco went down. His thumb injury is a four week rehab.
 

legend

Coach
Messages
15,150
My player to watch this year is Justin Hollins. I reckon he will supplant Davis at ILB. I'm also predicting De Marcus Walker to have a great year. We will be a top five D this year. Not sure on the rest.
 
Messages
13,584
Thoughts on Fanny-Pack Fangio so far?

He’s copping a bit of stick on the BS Report.

I have to say the “fanny-pack” does give me a laugh.
 

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