Expansion by division (aka, national 2nd division with promotion & relegation)

[Stallion]

Tell that to the collegiate sports competitions and minor leagues in North America. Tell that to the English Football League Championship clubs, Bundesliga 2, etc, etc.

Make it accessible and give it a point of difference to the top tier and the people will come, just like everywhere else in the world.

Very different to Australia!

 

[The Great Dane]

Very different to Australia!

How so?

 

[Stallion]

How so?

Aussies (generally speaking) will not lower their sports team status and continue following them if they drop to a 2nd tier level. It doesn't pass the pub test. Meaning for example: the Bears fan goes into a pub. His mate talks about Manly going no good. He then agrees then his mate (a Manly fan) finishes the conversation with " At least my clubs in first grade! " End of discussion.Bears fan is pummeled in the pub test!

 

[The Great Dane]

Aussies (generally speaking) will not lower their sports team status and continue following them if they drop to a 2nd tier level. It doesn't pass the pub test. Meaning for example: the Bears fan goes into a pub. His mate talks about Manly going no good. He then agrees then his mate (a Manly fan) finishes the conversation with " At least my clubs in first grade! " End of discussion.Bears fan is pummeled in the pub test!

Firstly, who said anything about relegating clubs to the second tier?

Secondly it seems to be working really well for the Jets, so maybe it isn't half as crazy as you seem to think that it is.

 

[Stallion]

Firstly, who said anything about relegating clubs to the second tier?

Secondly it seems to be working really well for the Jets, so maybe it isn't half as crazy as you seem to think that it is.

The boutique scenario for the Newtown jets is working ok. This club is still nowhere near in the public eye as it was when in the top flight. A second tier is still a second tier. That's what the Bears are in. It makes a massive difference. And to put existing supporters through that is basically unwarranted and diabolical .

 

[The Great Dane]

The boutique scenario for the Newtown jets is working ok. This club is still nowhere near in the public eye as it was when in the top flight. A second tier is still a second tier. That's what the Bears are in. It makes a massive difference. And to put existing supporters through that is basically unwarranted and diabolical .

Again who said anything about relegating current clubs? I certainly didn’t...

I mean sure the Jets probably aren’t getting as much exposure in the NSW Cup as they once did in the NSWRL, but that could be changed with a bit of work and sacrifice from the NRL. Set up a national second tier, sell the broadcasting rights or give them away if you have to, have a reasonable marketing campaign for the new comp, and hey presto they’re on the right track to building a comp with similar exposure to that that the NRL has but on a smaller scale.

Also, the only reason that the Bears aren’t successful in the second tier is because they have their hearts set on getting back into the top tier instead of making the best out of their current situation, and as such totally undermine any efforts that they make to be successful in the NSW Cup. As such I don’t consider their self sabotage as a reasonable argument against anything.

 

[Stallion]

Again who said anything about relegating current clubs? I certainly didn’t...

I mean sure the Jets probably aren’t getting as much exposure in the NSW Cup as they once did in the NSWRL, but that could be changed with a bit of work and sacrifice from the NRL. Set up a national second tier, sell the broadcasting rights or give them away if you have to, have a reasonable marketing campaign for the new comp, and hey presto they’re on the right track to building a comp with similar exposure to that that the NRL has but on a smaller scale.

Also, the only reason that the Bears aren’t successful in the second tier is because they have their hearts set on getting back into the top tier instead of making the best out of their current situation, and as such totally undermine any efforts that they make to be successful in the NSW Cup. As such I don’t consider their self sabotage as a reasonable argument against anything.

Unfortunately the smaller scale mention infers low profile and necessarily poor sponsorship. Top flight but a bigger top flight is the way to go in Australia.

 

[The Great Dane]

Unfortunately the smaller scale mention infers low profile and necessarily poor sponsorship. Top flight but a bigger top flight is the way to go in Australia.

Which isn't a problem because the goal for a lower tier comp is to create a meaningful competition with high exposure that isn't as expensive to operate in as the top tier.

In other words it's lower profile, the sponsorship values are lower, etc, but the costs of fielding a team is significantly lower as well, which means that it feasible for clubs that either aren't ready to participate in the NRL (or top tier), or are incapable of participating in the NRL for whatever reason, have a competition that they can field semi-pro/pro teams in, that also gets enough exposure to make running such a club a viable business.

You're also creating a false dichotomy where it's either expand the NRL or work on improving the lower tiers, when the NRL shouldn't be doing either or, they could and should be doing both at the same time!

 

[Stallion]

Which isn't a problem because the goal for a lower tier comp is to create a meaningful competition with high exposure that isn't as expensive to operate in as the top tier.

In other words it's lower profile, the sponsorship values are lower, etc, but the costs of fielding a team is significantly lower as well, which means that it feasible for clubs that either aren't ready to participate in the NRL (or top tier), or are incapable of participating in the NRL for whatever reason, have a competition that they can field semi-pro/pro teams in, that also gets enough exposure to make running such a club a viable business.

You're also creating a false dichotomy where it's either expand the NRL or work on improving the lower tiers, when the NRL shouldn't be doing either or, they could and should be doing both at the same time!

I agree they should be doing both. I also think juniors should be part of the equation. If what you suggested is not impinging on established status of current clubs then it looks good to me.Still believe there is room for at least 4 more clubs over time in the top flight.

 

[Perth Red]

How much revenue do you think a second division club would need? What would be salary cap? Presumably we would anticipate the NRL could wangle enough in TV and sponsors to cover running costs of league, travel etc and give a reasonable sized grant. $3million revenue with a $1.5million grant?

 

[siv]

I would say $4 mil revenue and $2mil grant

Which is much higher than current $1 mil revenue and $250k grant

With the NRL clubs jumping as they did to $10 mil for 30+6 players, the gap will continue to grow with every TV deal. That means only NRL clubs can fund reserve grade

 

[The Great Dane]

I would say $4 mil revenue and $2mil grant

Which is much higher than current $1 mil revenue and $250k grant

With the NRL clubs jumping as they did to $10 mil for 30+6 players, the gap will continue to grow with every TV deal. That means only NRL clubs can fund reserve grade

We wouldn't need the second tier clubs to compete with the NRL clubs, so why is that gap in the cap and grants a problem?

It's not like the NRL couldn't afford it, and the NRL clubs would demand about that much in extra grants anyway if they were expected to field reserve grade teams, so reserves wouldn't be any cheaper for the NRL anyway. A reserve grade almost certainly wouldn't attract much interest from broadcasters, sponsors, etc, either, so wouldn't add anything to the kitty, where a well structured second tier comp could attract investment from sponsors, broadcasters, etc.

Beside those points, the gap between the two tiers would shrink over time if the second tier competition was successful... So yeah initially the gap may be huge, but in 50 to 100 years that gap would probably be significantly smaller if the second tier comp was successful.

 

[siv]

The argument is to canabolise the NRL to create the second tier

I dont agree with this - reserve grade has its purpose in the professional League structure. Beiing broadcast or not doesn't change this and hasnt for 112 years

But you are right about settimg the 2nd Tier right in NSW. But it means bringing back a true second division and replicating the Qld Cup by inviting country divisions.

Reserve Grade shouldnt be used as second division. NRL clubs want to maintain control especially in NSW

2nd Tier when it started in 1960s and still is today only a Part-Time professional league played by part-time players at small venues, of which only have 500 to 1000 undercover seats

Revenue is only around $1mil

I say set it up properly as a part-time league

 

[Stallion]

The argument is to canabolise the NRL to create the second tier

I dont agree with this - reserve grade has its purpose in the professional League structure. Beiing broadcast or not doesn't change this and hasnt for 112 years

But you are right about settimg the 2nd Tier right in NSW. But it means bringing back a true second division and replicating the Qld Cup by inviting country divisions.

Reserve Grade shouldnt be used as second division. NRL clubs want to maintain control especially in NSW

2nd Tier when it started in 1960s and still is today only a Part-Time professional league played by part-time players at small venues, of which only have 500 to 1000 undercover seats

Revenue is only around $1mil

I say set it up properly as a part-time league

Wasn't aware their was a cannibalising of the NRL. Definitely not valid.

 

[age.s]

Can you imagine a club getting relegated thanks to one of the regularly occurring 50/50 calls that come down to the refs interpretation? Or a bunker blunder?

I'm not entirely against the whole idea, but with the amount of influence ref's have over the game it would be absolute carnage.

 

[The Great Dane]

The argument is to canabolise the NRL to create the second tier

Nobody in the current conversation is talking about cannibalising the NRL to reform the second tier competition!

Nobody is talking about pro&reg either.

All that is being suggested by me is a second tier competition that could be structured to actually be valuable to the sport to spread/cement the code in regions that cannot/could not support an NRL club, and that is actually a valuable product in it's own right.

BTW, I don't see a problem with any new second tier competition being at least partly made up of part-timers, in fact I think it'd be inevitable at least in the beginning that a good chunk of the players in the competition would be part-timers but with a core of professional players as well.

 

[siv]

In Qld part-timers dominate the squad eg 75% plus

While in NSW clubs could field 100% fulltime professionals from their 30+6 squad. Dont forget all NRL also run in the U20s U18s and U16s

There isnt anywhere for part-timers

That kicked in at 2nd Div / Metro Cup / JB Cup or now RM Cup level

But really this was a collection of stronger A grade clubs mainly from Western Sydney eg Mounties Wenty Hills St Marys Windsor Cabramatta Blacktown

But there isnt enough of them plus Norths & Newtown to sustain a comp. Thats why you bring in locations within 5h of Sydney. Western Div, Central Coast, North Coast, Northern and Riverina. Places where NRL doesnt have a presence

I would support regional clubs by giving them a $250k extra grant to cover travel etc

But I would also support Adelaide by giving them a $500k extra grant

P & R

No 2nd division team should ever be a automatic promotion

They need to earn it

By having a Final 4 round robin series with Wooden Spooners / Qld Cup winner / NZ Cup winner at Wooden spooners home ground. Winner promoted

This gives you a instant TV product finals time

It also greats HOPE in the second tier

And would allow a good geographic spread and a 2nd Tier TV product based on HOPE

And at NRL level creates interest in the bottom 4 on avoiding the wooden spoon

Currently NSW Cup and Qld Cup are salary uncapped. At a minimum you would need to align to 50% NRL levels initially

I would run Tier 2 clubs with their own U20s team aligned with higher grade and country teams with U18s and U16s team run within the NSWRL Juniors