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External draft? Internal draft? Both? Neither?

What kind of draft should the NRL have?

  • External Draft

    Votes: 4 9.1%
  • Internal Draft

    Votes: 2 4.5%
  • Both

    Votes: 5 11.4%
  • Neither

    Votes: 33 75.0%

  • Total voters
    44

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,687
Former NSW State of Origin coach Phil Gould has labelled plans for an external NRL draft as "ridiculous."

Gould said he did not believe those at the top of the game fully understood the ramifications of instituting a draft.

"I don't think they get it," he said on The Gus and Webby Show. "You cannot compare how the game here in Australia has developed with how other sport codes around the world have developed their players. We are nothing like other codes and countries."

Young players in the NRL often come through the ranks of the junior divisions right up to first grade. Gould said that a draft system would put that legacy at risk. "I don't believe in youngsters going to far off areas to start their careers."

The comments put him at odds with seven-time premiership winning coach Wayne Bennett who believes the NRL and state bodies should take control of junior leagues so that the pressure on clubs to produce players is alleviated. "Clubs carry too much weight, to be honest with you," Bennett said.

"The AFL has a much better model than we have, in terms of what happens below the elite level. You've got clubs in Sydney paying an awful lot of money to their junior leagues. I know at the Dragons, they were paying a million dollars to junior leagues."

Gould suggested that a compromise would be an internal NRL draft, a measure he has advocated for a long time. An internal draft would only allow those players already in the NRL to put themselves on the market.

"I take the view that if a player wants to change clubs, if he thinks he's not being paid well enough or if he wants to test the market, then he should put himself on the draft at a certain price then he's up for bids from external clubs."

Gould said this could reduce some of the power of player managers and inflated salaries which he believes are "unsustainable," for the future of the game.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...s-for-external-nrl-draft-20150304-13v9fj.html

Two of the most respected people in rugby league have very different opinions on this.

Wayne Bennett wants the NRL and state bodies to take over junior development from the clubs and have a full external draft like the AFL and all american sports.

Phil Gould is opposed to the external draft but is for an internal draft, meaning players already in the NRL can only move via draft.

I personally like both ideas.
 
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Messages
13,797
Thing is BM, an internal draft is illegal as it is classified as a restraint of trade. Terry Hill and the Players Association saw to that when they challenged the last draft in the High Court.

It does not matter what you, I, Phil Gould or Bugs Bunny think, unless the players agree to it there will be no draft implemented. If the NRL try to unilaterally impose one, the RL Players Association will be straight off to court and get it thrown out asap.

As such until the Players Association is actively engaged on the matter, drafts are pie in the sky stuff as far as I am concerned. Not because I am against them, but because of the practical problem that needs to be addressed first.
 

Kirky

Juniors
Messages
255
Would an external draft still be a restraint of trade?

Yep.

Personally I don't want a draft. Local juniors growing up to become local heroes for their club is one of the hallmarks of our game.
 

Noname36

First Grade
Messages
7,067
Gus is right there. A draft will destroy the game.

Cap exemptions for juniors is the way to go. Encourages clubs to invest in junior development rather than just go out with a chequebook trying to buy a premiership.

If a draft is introduced and clubs no longer feel any incentives to develop juniors look at how fast the talent pool dries up. We don't even have enough quality players to go around all the clubs now let alone if they consider expansion.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,687
Thing is BM, an internal draft is illegal as it is classified as a restraint of trade. Terry Hill and the Players Association saw to that when they challenged the last draft in the High Court.

It does not matter what you, I, Phil Gould or Bugs Bunny think, unless the players agree to it there will be no draft implemented. If the NRL try to unilaterally impose one, the RL Players Association will be straight off to court and get it thrown out asap.

As such until the Players Association is actively engaged on the matter, drafts are pie in the sky stuff as far as I am concerned. Not because I am against them, but because of the practical problem that needs to be addressed first.

The salary cap is also prone to court challenge but the Players Association agreed to it. Obviously for a draft to happen the players would have to get on board. That would be part of the process of setting it up.

And anyway, the players association is weak. Most players live week to week, they couldn't afford a strike. Give them a slightly bigger chunk of the pie by increasing the cap and they'll agree.
 
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BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,687
Gus is right there. A draft will destroy the game.

Cap exemptions for juniors is the way to go. Encourages clubs to invest in junior development rather than just go out with a chequebook trying to buy a premiership.

If a draft is introduced and clubs no longer feel any incentives to develop juniors look at how fast the talent pool dries up. We don't even have enough quality players to go around all the clubs now let alone if they consider expansion.

No bloody talent pool will dry up. The AFL and every american sport manage to survive without professional clubs dealing with kids.

The same amount of funding or more would be spent on junior development under this alternate plan.

Division of labour makes businesses more efficient. If professional footy clubs can focus on professional footy they will be more efficient. And if one entity can focus on juniors nation wide, junior development will be more efficient.
 

oikee

Juniors
Messages
1,973
I dont think Bennett and Gould are at different ends. They both want a draft system, and both understand that what we have got is unsustainable, the only difference is that Gus wants a draft to suit his club.
Bennett on the other hand want s draft to suit all clubs.

We have to introduce a draft for our code, and it wont be like other drafts, it has to be able to suit our younger kids, indigenous kids, and Islanders.

That is the tricky part.

We will still have a open market for NRL players, so a cut off age for draftee's is a must.

It's a can of worms, but we need to be sorting out those worms and then trial and error the system.

It wont all go like clockwork, look at the integrity unit, it could take a few years to get it humming.

Patience, we need lots of this and also need to dismiss media bias.
The media will go hard on this one. They have very little to talk about lately, so a draft will be like Xmas for them.
 

Noname36

First Grade
Messages
7,067
No bloody talent pool will dry up. The AFL and every american sport manage to survive without professional clubs dealing with kids.

The same amount of funding or more would be spent on junior development under this alternate plan.

Division of labour makes businesses more efficient. If professional footy clubs can focus on professional footy they will be more efficient. And if one entity can focus on juniors nation wide, junior development will be more efficient.

You don't get it...and neither do Smith or Bennett or anyone else that thinks it would be good for the game. Like Gus said, nothing about RL development is comparable to other codes. One of the best things about the game is seeing a kid that dreamed of playing for his favourite club and going through all the grades and getting to play FG. The draft destroys that.

You're also deluded if you don't think the talent will dry up. Most of the game's best talent comes from the country. You'd be amazed how many kids (particularly Indigenous ones) would pull out of the game if they were told that they probably had to go and play in Sydney the moment they hit FG. Try telling a kid from NZ that's grown up dreaming of playing for the Warriors that he has to leave all of his family and his country to go and play in Australia.

Clubs also put a lot of time and resources into junior development so it will benefit their top grade side down the track. It's self-serving so it produces the best results. Junior grades may still get funding but I can guarantee you the care factor in these kids' futures will be zero when clubs feel they don't gave any responsibility for them or their development. What we need is incentives like cap exemptions for juniors so clubs are encouraged to invest in development. Clubs will put more in if they know they'll get more out which is obviously only a good thing for kids coming through.
 
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Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
Primarily i want the ARLC to takeover all development before the age of 18-20....

The current system, with 16 clubs trying to decide who get what, there is invariably overlap in some areas and a vacuum in others (not to mention the inequities in funding provided). Clubs should be most interested in fans; attendence, viewership and just general interest in the sport. It should be the ARLC that structures the junior ranks.

The reason i have been against the draft up until this point was the looming prospect of clubs withdrawing funding (given the lack of incentive) and no one willing to step into the void (as always, f*ck Gallop). Given that the ARLC now has both the money to invest and the people able to create a highquality bureaucracy, this is no longer an issue and will probably happen even if the draft is not implemented.
 

Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
To the draft itself, i think people overestemate the negative impacts it would have...

Yes, players would be asked to spend 3 years in a new place, but given this would be true every single year, the clubs would quickly create the facilities and support structures for the kids that have just arrived (eg, a college facility until they find an apartment, mentoring programs,etc.).
On the flip, a draft would dramatically reduce the cost of rookie contracts/scouting and provide more retention/trading right for the clubs than they have now in the free market.

As to the idea of clubs not having juniors and only picking up players as they entire the NRL level, again i think we overstate the importance of this. Fans fall in love with players regardless of where they are from or at what age they arrive (its just about showing pride in whichever strip they are wearing).

and this isnt even considering that variations can easily be added to accommodate local players, father-son clubs, etc...
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,687
The AFL has a father-son rule. I'd be for a local junior rule. Where if a player from your area is picked by another club you can use the rule and your next pick is used on him. That way Gus can guarantee Penrith's best prospect every year will stay in Penrith.
 

Edwahu

Bench
Messages
3,697
Where does all the money come from for the NRL to fund junior football? Would the clubs that currently do very little in that area be happy for it to come out of their grants?
 
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BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,687
Where does all the money come from for the NRL to fund junior football? Would the clubs that currently do very little in that area be happy for it to come out of their grants?

The NRL has massive surpluses every year. There is room for investment. And with no need to fund the multitude of underage teams the clubs could have their grants cut by X and still be ahead at the end of it.
 

canberra_raiders2k2

First Grade
Messages
6,255
The problem with the nrl is that we have the other divisions ie nsw cup and etc.

The NFL works because they don't have anything between college ball and the professional system. We have so many completions running concurrently that it becomes less viable to have players drafted and etc.

The best system for our code is junior development, otherwise it would lead to lost assets. The work around could be a free agent period and teams performing player trades. That could work. But it has to be better then the crap free agency system presently in place.

You could literally signed multiple contracts and then pull out screw over the interested teams and their recruitment.
 
Messages
13,797
So is the salary cap and it wouldn't last 2 seconds if challenged in court. The clubs and players association have agreed to have on though.

Difference is in relation to a draft, the players association has not changed its stance since it fought the draft in the early 1990s in the court and had it thrown out. Hence, as I said up thread, it is all pie in the sky stuff even talking about a draft unless the layers and the players association are onboard

On a side note, it is not cut and dried from a legal perspective that the salary cap is a restraint of trade from which the players could legally challenge it.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,687
Difference is in relation to a draft, the players association has not changed its stance since it fought the draft in the early 1990s in the court and had it thrown out. Hence, as I said up thread, it is all pie in the sky stuff even talking about a draft unless the layers and the players association are onboard

On a side note, it is not cut and dried from a legal perspective that the salary cap is a restraint of trade from which the players could legally challenge it.

Yes they could challenge a draft and that is why they'd be given a 10% increase in the cap to shut em up.
 

Puntastic

Juniors
Messages
993
Bennett's comments are interesting, given that the Broncos traditionally have one of the more fertile grounds for breeding juniors.

Gus is definitely looking out for Penrith's interests, but to be fair he always has said junior development is important (possibly because of his long history with the club though). His points on managers are fair.

Both make interesting points (if the draft was legal which it is not). Saying there should be no external draft rewards teams for coaxing players to the NRL which is a good thing, but only if an internal draft exists. Drafts/transfer fees/junior transfer fees definitely incentivise player development.

More control in the NRL would surely reduce the incentive for a club to invest? I personally don't like the idea.

Bennett saying "I know at the Dragons, they were paying a million dollars to junior leagues" says clubs aren't rewarded for investing in junior development just as much as it says they carry "too much weight" doesn't it?

Most of this is moot given that a draft is held to be a restraint of trade. I'm not entirely sure what the legality is on transfer fees alone (as opposed to being drafted), and that might held to be restraint of trade, but wouldn't that at least solve the internal issues regarding juniors? Failing that, if Bennett expects the NRL to invest in juniors, why not pay clubs directly for developed juniors (however that is defined - if they are poached even)? Either way clubs are rewarded for juniors successfully developed in some way?

Finally, can we stop having the f**king conversation about a f**king draft where it is the answer? It's illegal. It is useful to highlight the issues (which I've done here too) but it's not a solution. It isn't going to happen. Come up with alternatives.
 
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