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The Game Future NRL Stadiums part II

Lambretta

First Grade
Messages
8,689
Letter I sent to SMH

I love sport and am a regular attendee to Sydney Roosters and Sydney FC games both of who play at the SFS (Allianz)

Growing up in the UK I went to many sporting events there over the years and appreciate what a good stadium Allianz is

Sure it’s not the most up to the minute stadium, but you have an unobstructed view from almost anywhere in the ground and it holds 40,000 people. OK, so it probably needs a roof to protect you in the wet, but a knock down and re-build? That makes no sense at all.


ANZ, or Stadium Australia on the other hand is appalling – the front row seats are miles from the playing area and are banked so slightly that by the time you gain any elevation (something sports fans appreciate), you’re in the next suburb. It needs knocking down and re-building. But the costs quoted are ridiculous.


Arsenal’s stadium in London cost around $1 billion, adjusted to todays’ money and on that basis, spending a billion on a similar sized stadium seems fine

However, looking down the list at other football stadiums in the UK you wonder where the money is going

Manchester City’s Ethihad Stadium holds 55,000 people and cost less than 200 million pounds adjusted for inflation even with the works to alter and increase the stadium capacity

Brighton’s Amex Stadium holds 37,500 people and was built in 2011 for less than 100 million pounds

Cardiff City’s stadium holds 33,000 people and was built in 2007 for less than 50 million pounds


But the jewel in the crown of sensible stadium designs is Stadium MK in Milton Keynes. Built in 2005 for 30 million pounds – it was initially a 20,500 all seater stadium, with an additional tier included for further seating

When additional seating was required, they merely put in a further 10,000 seats at very little additional cost, as the structure was already there, bringing the capacity to 30,500 – more than sufficient for most sporting occasions in Australia. What is even better is that it cost the club nothing to build. The club owned the land and they leased the land rights to IKEA and ASDA to build stores on their land and Hilton built a Hotel in the side of the stadium. There are even hotel suites with views onto the pitch itself. What a romantic getaway idea!

But 30,000 isn’t big enough I hear people cry – oh well, the roof can easily be dismantled and another tier added bringing the capacity up to 45,000 and all for less than one tenth of the proposed cost of one of the stadiums being suggested for Sydney. At that cost, the Government could build brand new 30,000 seat stadiums in Cronulla, Penrith, Manly, Wollongong and Campbelltown. Not only that, but they could get businesses to assist with the cost of actually paying for the construction by entering into meaningful partnerships with retail outlets.

You have to ask yourself why are the costs so high? Where is the money going? Who will be reaping the benefits in the future?
 

Lambretta

First Grade
Messages
8,689
You have to ask yourself why are the costs so high? Where is the money going? Who will be reaping the benefits in the future?

Regarding my questions -
There are two possible answers
1. The Ministers involved in awarding the contracts are having their palms greased and being rewarded with high paying "consultancy" roles when they leave politics

2. They don't want to re-build anything at all and are putting the costs so high it will become a political hot potato with massive voted backlash so it can be placed on hold and forgotten

But $2 billion for 2 stadiums when you consider what else is being built at a fraction of the cost is just insane
 
Messages
21,880
You have to ask yourself why are the costs so high? Where is the money going? Who will be reaping the benefits in the future?

Regarding my questions -
There are two possible answers
1. The Ministers involved in awarding the contracts are having their palms greased and being rewarded with high paying "consultancy" roles when they leave politics

2. They don't want to re-build anything at all and are putting the costs so high it will become a political hot potato with massive voted backlash so it can be placed on hold and forgotten

But $2 billion for 2 stadiums when you consider what else is being built at a fraction of the cost is just insane

You’ve missed the two biggest answers.

Labour costs & lack of competitive tension in the building industry.

Second one may be the biggest.

Essentially there are only a few firms capable of building significant public infrastructure in Australia, and due to this they price things high knowing the govt has little option but to pay it.

However labour costs are also significantly higher in Australia.

Whilst I don’t discount the possibility of some dodgy goings on in terms of bribes, this isn’t happening to the degree that makes it so much more expensive to build public infrastructure in Australia.

We could do with an inquiry into these costs though, and try and formulate a way to bring them down.
 

Lambretta

First Grade
Messages
8,689
You’ve missed the two biggest answers.

Labour costs & lack of competitive tension in the building industry.

Second one may be the biggest.

Essentially there are only a few firms capable of building significant public infrastructure in Australia, and due to this they price things high knowing the govt has little option but to pay it.

However labour costs are also significantly higher in Australia.

Whilst I don’t discount the possibility of some dodgy goings on in terms of bribes, this isn’t happening to the degree that makes it so much more expensive to build public infrastructure in Australia.

We could do with an inquiry into these costs though, and try and formulate a way to bring them down.

Labour costs here are not 5 times what they are in the UK - higher yes, but not that high
There are many firms here capable of doing large works in Australia
Hell, Australian firms have been chosen to do large works in the UK

It's not like we have to import all the materials either

The stadiums I named in my letter are all private firms - private firms don't pay anywhere near the prices that governments seem to. I wonder why that is? Noses in troughs - that's why. Businesses are using their own money and not the publics, and they have share holders to answer to - so they screw the companies hard to get the best outcome.

The governments need to grow some f**king balls and stop throwing our money round

Go visit Stadium MK - which was built for 60 million dollars
It's every bit as good as AAMI AND it can be easily and cheaply extended to be the same size as Allianz - only closer to the pitch with better views and better atmosphere!
Then tell me we need to pay a billion dollars for a stadium

The MK Dons paid 0 quid for it because of the deals they did with retailers
Peoples love of shopping for shit paid for it to be built
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,971
Re: the size of Allianz rebuild and the idea to redevelop every suburban stadium that constantly gets brought up.

The state government isn't interested in what the Roosters or any one club in one sport are doing.
They're looking to attract valuable, major events to the city. Socceroos, Wallabies, Kangaroos (if RL ever gets its act together), Finals, Origins, EPL teams, concerts.
Fixing up Kogarah and Brookvale achieves precisely nothing to this end. Clubs should work with local councils and private investors to improve suburban grounds.

Again looking at this from a citywide, not NRL angle, while 35k might be a nice sized stadium for NRL club games, capacity below 40k limits the ability for the stadium to host major events, making the entire rebuild pointless.
 
Messages
21,880
Labour costs here are not 5 times what they are in the UK - higher yes, but not that high

I said they were the second biggest factor, not 5 times higher.

There are many firms here capable of doing large works in Australia

Not compared to other markets there aren’t.

In fact the biggest civil Engineering company, CBP Contracters, is as big as the next 4 combined.

https://www.iseekplant.com.au/blog/australias-top-100-construction-firms/

Hell, Australian firms have been chosen to do large works in the UK

Yeah, Wembley.

And guess what happened? The costs blew out massively.

They lost $109 million on the project.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Business/Wembley-losses-soar-to-109m/2005/05/30/1117305561050.html

It's not like we have to import all the materials either

Actually we do have to import many of the finished materials.

We have an abundance of raw materials but a small manufacturing industry.


The stadiums I named in my letter are all private firms - private firms don't pay anywhere near the prices that governments seem to. I wonder why that is? Noses in troughs - that's why. Businesses are using their own money and not the publics, and they have share holders to answer to - so they screw the companies hard to get the best outcome.

The noses in the trough are mostly the businesses bidding for the contracts, they’re taking the governments for a ride. It’s not a case of government ministers taking hundreds of millions of dollars of brides Australia wide.

Costs would absolutely come down if the whole process was managed privately. But still not anywhere near European costs.
 
Messages
21,880
Re: the size of Allianz rebuild and the idea to redevelop every suburban stadium that constantly gets brought up.

The state government isn't interested in what the Roosters or any one club in one sport are doing.
They're looking to attract valuable, major events to the city. Socceroos, Wallabies, Kangaroos (if RL ever gets its act together), Finals, Origins, EPL teams, concerts.
Fixing up Kogarah and Brookvale achieves precisely nothing to this end. Clubs should work with local councils and private investors to improve suburban grounds.

Again looking at this from a citywide, not NRL angle, while 35k might be a nice sized stadium for NRL club games, capacity below 40k limits the ability for the stadium to host major events, making the entire rebuild pointless.

If only government was as altruistic as you suggest.

Some local grounds will still get money, because every government wants votes.

There’s no need for Allianz to attract major events when we also have ANZ stadium. We also have the SCG right next door to Allianz and it can host things like concerts. That’s why 35k is more appropriate.

Why would an EPL team come all the way for just 45k seats when there’s a 72k seat stadium?

Socceroos are on record as saying they prefer ANZ

Origins will always be played at ANZ

Finals that could draw more than 35k can be played at ANZ.

The difference between 45k & 72k is too massive for Allianz to attract genuinely big events. It’s why it attracts almost none right now.

A 35k seat stadium benefits all the 3major tenants of Allianz, not just the roosters.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,971
If they aren't hoping to increase the number of events played there then I would suggest spending any serious money on it is completely pointless, then.
 
Messages
21,880
If they aren't hoping to increase the number of events played there then I would suggest spending any serious money on it is completely pointless, then.

Maybe so.

But I don’t see how they’ll book these extra events. I mean if the SCG trust are saying that it’s just posturing to get more money.

Allianz is a better stadium to watch sports from right now, yet most major events go to ANZ.
 
Messages
4,204
Surely there's a much easier solution here. The Expansion mob pay for Shark Park to be upgraded / rebuilt as an amazing stadium, Sharks let the team play rent-free and the Expansion mob take a cut of ticket sales.

Makes sense in some ways but too many cons.

If they are trying to court potential fans who associate with the St. George or Illawarra areas, playing at shark park simply won't do. Playing there is basically a resignation that Southern Expansion is a unsustainable, glorified shire team.
 

Lambretta

First Grade
Messages
8,689
I said they were the second biggest factor, not 5 times higher.

Not compared to other markets there aren’t.

In fact the biggest civil Engineering company, CBP Contracters, is as big as the next 4 combined.

https://www.iseekplant.com.au/blog/australias-top-100-construction-firms/

Yeah, Wembley.

And guess what happened? The costs blew out massively.

They lost $109 million on the project.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Business/Wembley-losses-soar-to-109m/2005/05/30/1117305561050.html

Actually we do have to import many of the finished materials.

We have an abundance of raw materials but a small manufacturing industry.

The noses in the trough are mostly the businesses bidding for the contracts, they’re taking the governments for a ride. It’s not a case of government ministers taking hundreds of millions of dollars of brides Australia wide.

Costs would absolutely come down if the whole process was managed privately. But still not anywhere near European costs.

I know you didn't say they were 5 times higher, but we're being quoted build costs at 5 times more than what they're building stadiums for in the UK. Somethings not right,

I understand costs here are higher, but there are things you can do to reduce those costs
Most engineering companies charge a lot more because it's a Government contract and then they move the goalposts until they've finished

Get em on a fixed price contract - that stops them moving goalposts

Also involve private companies in the end products - ie Westfield can have a shopping centre on the precinct - then see how much the engineering companies screw the Government. They won't have that luxury as they'll have to deal with proper businesses. Or have lease holds on the land for private busineses - make the space a space that people come to when it's not match day. Make the sites pay for themselves long term.

I agree that the noses in the trough are the businesses - but you do realise that the government don't argue with them as they know they get consultancy jobs years down the track as a thank you for not playing hard ball when awarding the contracts. Jackie Lambie is entering a bill designed to cut down on this bullshit and I wish her well
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...-safety-claims-ridiculed-20171018-gz3hqm.html

Political football continues as Allianz Stadium safety claims ridiculed
Opposition Leader Luke Foley has ridiculed suggestions Allianz Stadium is a potential death trap, claiming the government's push to knock down and rebuild the venue could jeopardise the 20-year commitment to stage NRL grand finals in Sydney.

As revealed by Fairfax Media, Sports Minister Stuart Ayres is expected to ask cabinet for more than $2 billion to knock down and rebuild both Allianz and ANZ stadiums on Thursday. It's hoped the move will finally provide clarity around funding in the protracted stadium war, although it's unclear if there will be an official announcement or an indication of which venue will be done first.

NSW premier Gladys Berejiklian has stated she is not wedded to the $1.6 billion figure originally pledged by predecessor Mike Baird, although it remains to be seen if the money required to rebuild both venues from the ground will be forthcoming.

The NRL has stated transforming ANZ Stadium into a world-class rectangular stadium must be the priority, with the commitment to staging grand finals in Sydney contingent on that being the case.

Fairfax Media revealed in July that the Sydney Cricket and Sports Ground Trust had raised concerns about the safety of Allianz Stadium with the government, prompting a renewed examination into the feasibility of a total rebuild of the venue. Speaking at a ceremony marking the official commencement of construction of the NSWRL's centre of excellence at ANZ on Wednesday, Ayres said the prospect of the Allianz being shut down was a real one.

"The occupancy certificate is that we have until 2019 to correct a number of the occupancy safety and security issues in the stadium," Ayres said. "That will require investment one way or the other. If we can't meet those …requirements it is highly unlikely a certifier will give us an occupancy certificate."

Foley slammed the safety concerns as rubbish, labelling them part of a campaign to divert funds from ANZ.

"They have dropped stories to the papers saying people are going to die, yet they still play there the next Saturday," Foley said.

"Do you think any government, if people were at risk of dying in a government-owned venue, would open it the next weekend for a footy game? It's just rubbish.

"It's just Ayres trying to sabotage the cabinet decision to prioritise the Olympic Stadium and send the dollars east."

Construction on a new stadium at Parramatta, at a cost of $350 million, has already begun. Foley wants total stadia spending capped at $1.6 billion and the priority given to demolishing and rebuilding ANZ, with any remaining funds then channelled towards Allianz. The Labor leader feared a failure to prioritise the Olympic venue could see the NRL's showpiece event go interstate.

"The grand final should be played in Sydney," Foley said.

"We think the government is risking the future of grand finals in Sydney by taking so damn long to make a decision. It's year seven of this government and we still don't know what their stadium policy is. Yet again we're told we may get one later this week. How many times have we heard that?"

The sequencing of the works will have ramifications for all stadia tenants. If Allianz and ANZ are out of commission at the same time, the SCG could again play host to a league grand final.

Some have dubbed Thursday D-day amid hopes an announcement will clarify the government's strategy. However, the "D" could well stand for more delays as the government decides how much to commit to the projects.

"The Premier has said numerous times that she is not wedded to $1.6 billion," Ayres said. "We want to get this right. We need to make sure that this once-in-a-lifetime investment delivers for NSW for the next 30 or 40 years. I am not going to be rushed into doing that unnecessarily. We are pretty close."
 

insert.pause

First Grade
Messages
6,456
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...-safety-claims-ridiculed-20171018-gz3hqm.html

Political football continues as Allianz Stadium safety claims ridiculed
Opposition Leader Luke Foley has ridiculed suggestions Allianz Stadium is a potential death trap, claiming the government's push to knock down and rebuild the venue could jeopardise the 20-year commitment to stage NRL grand finals in Sydney.

As revealed by Fairfax Media, Sports Minister Stuart Ayres is expected to ask cabinet for more than $2 billion to knock down and rebuild both Allianz and ANZ stadiums on Thursday. It's hoped the move will finally provide clarity around funding in the protracted stadium war, although it's unclear if there will be an official announcement or an indication of which venue will be done first.

NSW premier Gladys Berejiklian has stated she is not wedded to the $1.6 billion figure originally pledged by predecessor Mike Baird, although it remains to be seen if the money required to rebuild both venues from the ground will be forthcoming.

The NRL has stated transforming ANZ Stadium into a world-class rectangular stadium must be the priority, with the commitment to staging grand finals in Sydney contingent on that being the case.

Fairfax Media revealed in July that the Sydney Cricket and Sports Ground Trust had raised concerns about the safety of Allianz Stadium with the government, prompting a renewed examination into the feasibility of a total rebuild of the venue. Speaking at a ceremony marking the official commencement of construction of the NSWRL's centre of excellence at ANZ on Wednesday, Ayres said the prospect of the Allianz being shut down was a real one.

"The occupancy certificate is that we have until 2019 to correct a number of the occupancy safety and security issues in the stadium," Ayres said. "That will require investment one way or the other. If we can't meet those …requirements it is highly unlikely a certifier will give us an occupancy certificate."

Foley slammed the safety concerns as rubbish, labelling them part of a campaign to divert funds from ANZ.

"They have dropped stories to the papers saying people are going to die, yet they still play there the next Saturday," Foley said.

"Do you think any government, if people were at risk of dying in a government-owned venue, would open it the next weekend for a footy game? It's just rubbish.

"It's just Ayres trying to sabotage the cabinet decision to prioritise the Olympic Stadium and send the dollars east."

Construction on a new stadium at Parramatta, at a cost of $350 million, has already begun. Foley wants total stadia spending capped at $1.6 billion and the priority given to demolishing and rebuilding ANZ, with any remaining funds then channelled towards Allianz. The Labor leader feared a failure to prioritise the Olympic venue could see the NRL's showpiece event go interstate.

"The grand final should be played in Sydney," Foley said.

"We think the government is risking the future of grand finals in Sydney by taking so damn long to make a decision. It's year seven of this government and we still don't know what their stadium policy is. Yet again we're told we may get one later this week. How many times have we heard that?"

The sequencing of the works will have ramifications for all stadia tenants. If Allianz and ANZ are out of commission at the same time, the SCG could again play host to a league grand final.

Some have dubbed Thursday D-day amid hopes an announcement will clarify the government's strategy. However, the "D" could well stand for more delays as the government decides how much to commit to the projects.

"The Premier has said numerous times that she is not wedded to $1.6 billion," Ayres said. "We want to get this right. We need to make sure that this once-in-a-lifetime investment delivers for NSW for the next 30 or 40 years. I am not going to be rushed into doing that unnecessarily. We are pretty close."
Ayres constant campaigning on behalf of the scg trust is beyond embarrassing. He is the only reason this has dragged out for as long as it has and if Gladys weren't such a pathetically weak leader she would never have let him out of the dog house after Baird resigned.
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...n/news-story/e197b60bf71d5b3a43d92c653114481c

D-Day threatens to become day of delay for stadiums plan

  • The Australian
  • 12:00AM October 19, 2017
  • Brent Read
    8a2fbfa2e92a609cfd30a16a25de7e5a
It has been billed as Sydney’s greatest soap opera and like any great drama there could be a surprising twist in the tail for Allianz and ANZ Stadiums as D-Day threatens to turn into another day of delay.

Amid speculation that a cabinet meeting today would finally provide some clarity on the NSW government’s stadiums strategy, there are growing fears that an announcement will be stalled until next week at the earliest.

The wait goes on. State Sports Minister Stuart Ayres attended a NSW Rugby League event in the shadows of ANZ Stadium yesterday and refused to even confirm he would put the futures of the city’s biggest sporting venues before cabinet.

The expectation is that he will propose a $2 billion redevelopment that would allow for both venues to be rebuilt, although that could result in the NSW government delaying any formal announcement as they balance the books and potentially look to justify the increased expenditure by procuring more content from the major sports.

The NRL has already committed 20 years of grand finals to Sydney once ANZ Stadium is turned into a state-of-the-art rectangular venue. The assumption has been that at least one grand final will hit the road while ANZ Stadium is a building zone, although Ayres insisted he had not given up hope of starving Queensland and Victoria of the title decider.

There are many who suspect he has done his best to delay a decision on the stadium strategy to aid the cause of Allianz Stadium. He may be delaying the inevitable when it comes to the grand final.

“I want to make this very, very clear — we want to invest a significant amount of taxpayer funds in renewing our sporting infrastructure in NSW,” Ayres said. “I won’t be giving up the grand final lightly. I want to make sure we engage with the NRL to get the best outcome. I am unashamedly the NSW Sports Minister. I don’t care too much for sporting fans in Victoria, Queensland, Western Australia and South Australia, and I am very keen to see the grand final staying in NSW.”

A good start would be to clear up some of the uncertainty surrounding Allianz and ANZ Stadiums. The suspicion has been that Ayres has been pushing the cause of Allianz Stadium and yesterday he insisted the venue would need investment or become a safety concern.

“The occupancy certificate is that we have until 2019 to correct a number of the occupancy safety and security issue in the stadium,” he said. “That will require investment one way or the other. If we can’t meet those … requirements it is highly unlikely a certifier will give us an occupancy certificate.”

Suggestions of safety issues around Allianz Stadium have been met with a bemused response from those who smell a conspiracy. Among them is NSW opposition leader Luke Foley, who held a press conference of his own beside ANZ Stadium yesterday.

“Rubbish,” Foley said. “They have dropped stories to the papers saying people are going to die, yet they still play there the next Saturday. Do you think any government, if people were at risk of dying in a government-owned venue, would open it the next weekend for a footy game. It’s just rubbish.

“It’s just Ayres trying to sabotage the cabinet decision to prioritise the Olympic stadium and send the dollars east.

“This is Sydney’s greatest soap opera and it’s been going since 2011. I don’t mind (Premier) Gladys (Berejiklian), I don’t mind her as a person, but she doesn’t seem to know what she wants to do with the job. She certainly doesn’t know what she wants to do with sporting stadiums. She’s letting Ayres run rampant.”

Foley is opposed to an increase in the previous commitment of $1.6 billion.

It may take significantly more than that to appease the codes involved in a battle which has pitted governing bodies and their clubs against each other.

Sydney FC yesterday released a statement calling on Allianz Stadium to be given priority over other venues in Sydney.

Football Federation Australia has already joined the NRL and Wanderers in calling on the NSW government to make ANZ Stadium next in line after Parramatta Stadium is completed.

Like Sydney FC, the Sydney Roosters lent their support to a letter earlier this week that was sent to Berejiklian supporting the prioritisation of Allianz Stadium.
 

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