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Hayne~NFL~RU~Tits~Eels~Dad~Jailed~Mistrial~Jailed 5yrs~Retrial~Jailed~Appeal~Quashed-Sued

ImTheMan

Juniors
Messages
1,094
It absolutely does, even if we’re not aware of it.
This is true in response to other posts replies. God however you view it is absolutely informing you every day you breathe. By framework I was referring to being a devount Catholic checking off all the rituals, for instance. That as I said may be helpful for some to stay on course, I respect it, but it's not necessary. Humans can argue over the manmade interpretations but the guidance it is providing humanity cannot be escaped in both law and good action. I'm not here to tell you who god is that's your journey just that it's present.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
87,670
The circularity of your reasoning is beautiful to behold.

Systems of justice (in advanced democracies at least) are, by definition and very deliberately, secular. You miss the fundamental point that you‘re not entitled to simply call your transcendent values our transcendent values and then use them as the basis of our legal system.

The very point of the presumption of innocence is that it is the only rational and reasonable starting point in assessing guilt. The finding of guilt may vey well agree with your religious beliefs but it doesn’t follow that your ‘transcendent values’ are the appropriate standards for all citizens to be judged against.
Whose transcendent values are to be used then? The law isn’t something for each man to decide for himself. It is imposed from outside, whether you’re in the West, Russia, China or anywhere else.
 
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10,430
This is true in response to other posts replies. God however you view it is absolutely informing you every day you breathe.
The 'however you view it' bit is important here. I don't think humanity really has any accurate concept for whatever form the "God" actually takes (or may reveal itself to be), once we each have departed this existence.

It's very exciting, and I'm looking forward to it!

1718844920605.jpeg
 

Mojo

Bench
Messages
3,711
Whose transcendent values are to be used then? The law isn’t something for each man to decide for himself. It is imposed from outside, whether you’re in the West, Russia, China or anywhere else.
Nobody's transcendent values (whatever you choose to mean by that term) should be used as the basis for laws.

This is way too big a subject to debate in this forum. Try reading this to start with: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1733609/pdf/v028p00215.pdf

Do you genuinely not comprehend that your religious beliefs don't, by default, establish the standards of behaviors of all members of society? Even if this were the case, what if Fred has different religious beliefs (or transcendent values) to Mary? Who judges who?

I really don't want to do this but, if you believe that religious doctrines should be adopted as legal standards, then how do you justify the extremely punitive subjugation of basic human rights in numerous religious regimes around the world and throughout human history.

PS: I doubt any of this has any relevance to the Hayne case ... or Pell. Sportsman, priest - transcendently inspired or not ... the law doesn't care!
 
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Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
87,670
Nobody's transcendent values (whatever you choose to mean by that term) should be used as the basis for laws.
So whose values should get to decide whether agents of the state are allowed to arrest and punish people?
This is way too big a subject to debate in this forum. Try reading this to start with: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1733609/pdf/v028p00215.pdf
No it’s quite simple, and your appeal to authority needs to be examined before forcing it on others.
Do you genuinely not comprehend that your religious beliefs don't, by default, establish the standards of behaviors of all members of society? Even if this were the case, what if Fred has different religious beliefs (or transcendent values) to Mary? Who judges who?

I really don't want to do this but, if you believe that religious doctrines should be adopted as legal standards, then how do you justify the extremely punitive subjugation of basic human rights in numerous religious regimes around the world and throughout human history.

PS: I doubt any of this has any relevance to the Hayne case ... or Pell. Sportsman, priest - transcendently inspired or not ... the law doesn't care!
Now you’re getting away from the topic. This is about people in 2024 forcing their ideology on others through controlling the apparatus of government.
 
Messages
10,430
Except we are subject to Australian laws and able to influence those laws to reflect our own worldview. That’s not the case with any of those other categories.
The comment I was responding to was about looking within at what we would consider bad (or good), and my categories were in addition to the one (limiting) suggestion of viewing through the lens of "originally and personally as a citizen of Australia".
 

Mojo

Bench
Messages
3,711
So whose values should get to decide whether agents of the state are allowed to arrest and punish people?

No it’s quite simple, and your appeal to authority needs to be examined before forcing it on others.

Now you’re getting away from the topic. This is about people in 2024 forcing their ideology on others through controlling the apparatus of government.
Oh For God's Sake! You have to be having me on!

I 'didn't appeal to authority' - I provided you with a link to an academic paper - hardly 'forcing it on others'. Whereas, your entire perspective is intrinsically based upon an appeal to a transcendental authority that you think should be the basis of our legal system. You just make no sense.

You want a 2024 example : in the last couple of hours today one of Trump's closest 'spiritual advisers', a leading pastor in a mega evangelical church, a man who has pushed for laws that have resulted in banning books all over America that he considers are 'dangerous to children', has resigned from his Church after admitting to repeatedly engaging in sexual encounters with a twelve year old girl.
His 'transcendent values' are now suddenly somewhat devalued.

Enough of this nonsense. Bye.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
75,484
You want a 2024 example : in the last couple of hours today one of Trump's closest 'spiritual advisers', a leading pastor in a mega evangelical church, a man who has pushed for laws that have resulted in banning books all over America that he considers are 'dangerous to children', has resigned from his Church after admitting to repeatedly engaging in sexual encounters with a twelve year old girl. His 'transcendent values' are now suddenly somewhat devalued.
#notadragqueen
 

ImTheMan

Juniors
Messages
1,094
At what point did anyone or the bible say that holding a position within a church makes you a perfect christian destined for heaven or not a hypocrite? You don't just go to "church" and become god, church is actually just a name for all Christians. What is it with lefties like Gronk getting all excited and wound up by scandals tenuously linked to Trump.

Are you crying into your Beers that Biden is 15 points behind Trump in IOWA and has almost halved his support with Black voters under 50 in leading opinion polls since the 2020 "election"?
 
Messages
10,430
At least the god/bible talk is somewhat linked to this Hayne thread, as Hayne himself apparently found the lord (prior to his various "troubles").

And it had honestly made this thread more interesting than it's original topic!
 

ImTheMan

Juniors
Messages
1,094
Also I am not advocating moral relativism on your way to finding god,just know that the edgy "wow god mad such a shit world filled with pain" is immature and you will realize this eventually like I have, hopefully before your deathbed and before you will have to be shown too much of the hard way.
 

ImTheMan

Juniors
Messages
1,094
I mean it was a bit of an overcorrection if innocent, but I think other than this episode Hayne had been very blessed and may be even more so in the future. We all fall short of the glory of god.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
87,670
Oh For God's Sake! You have to be having me on!

I 'didn't appeal to authority' - I provided you with a link to an academic paper - hardly 'forcing it on others'. Whereas, your entire perspective is intrinsically based upon an appeal to a transcendental authority that you think should be the basis of our legal system. You just make no sense.
If I make no sense to you, it's because you are repeatedly making untested assumptions about my position. You are like the first year uni student who's just learnt all the arguments against some religious strawman and now you're shooting from the hip with zero knowledge of what any real religious person believes.
You want a 2024 example : in the last couple of hours today one of Trump's closest 'spiritual advisers', a leading pastor in a mega evangelical church, a man who has pushed for laws that have resulted in banning books all over America that he considers are 'dangerous to children', has resigned from his Church after admitting to repeatedly engaging in sexual encounters with a twelve year old girl. His 'transcendent values' are now suddenly somewhat devalued.

Enough of this nonsense. Bye.
Humans fail to live up to their values all the time.
 

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