Home Grown v Buying the Comp

[mickeylane]

An interesting level of discussion is brewing on the forum to do w our recruiting and what direction the club should take -
Buy Established Players v Bringing thru Juniors

There's no doubt that the pressure on NRL clubs To sustain success (top 8 ) finish each year has become massive.

Hence the question here being raised is do we forego chasing established players like Farrah, Hopoate and anyone else we are being linked with for the choice of recruiting or bringing thru a younger player that is more cost effective and we could get more mileage out of..

I think if we look at our forum - we more than any other club crave success and a well run football club.. We have undoubted issues w the clubs management but no where near the upheaval that Parramatta and West Tigers have managed to conjur.

Our recruiting structures and football playing philosophy are also non existent - it's seems that McGregor has come thru and decided that experience Is the way to go and bringing thru 1-2 youngsters a year is the formula he would like to follow.

We should be looking at the recruiting practices of EPL soccer clubs and La Liga clubs who continuously buy up teams to sustain success - these are clubs that are some of the rIchest franchises in the world due to continued success.

Our forum is littered w differing opinions of how to recruit and who to recruit - my argument is that you look at a club like West Tigers that have produced quality youngsters like

Moses
Brooke's
Tedesco
Tapau And you ask yourself why are they floundering? (Do not blame Taylor) .. The fact is clear that the experienced players are too few and far between within the Tigers set up hence the talent is not being nurtured in a successful environment and hence never reaching their potential..put Brooke's or Tedesco in a Roosters or Storm team and let us see the players they can be in those set ups...

Look at Hastings at the Roosters.. The kid slots into a top team like the Roosters and looks like a world beater because of the quality around him.. The same for Bird, he looked and performed brilliantly in a team that was excelling all year - there's no denying the Sharks team this year was the best squad they have trotted out since the ET days..

The question here is - Do we recruit for success or do we recruit to build slowly without any guarantees for success..

I think the model that the modern day customer asks for is SUCCESS - give me a team that has a chance of winning every game it plays.. This is what our forum craves for and as supporters we crave for.

I believe the formula of recruiting the best available players in their positions is the one to follow - I know your going to say "what's the message" we are sending to our juniors - the message is clear..

"Aspire to play for the best club that has a winning culture".. Every player wants to succeed and play w the best players and the best teams - "success breeds success" - see Roosters, Melbourne....

We lost Hastings, Morris and Bird because they craved opportunity and success.. Let me tell you if we were a consistent top 4 team both players would have considered staying ..

I say that allowing for the purse strings that we try and recruit the best available players to build a Champion team w a culture that breeds pride in the jersey which we have and pride in the community that you represent .. The notion has seemed to have rubbed off on wayward players like Dugan , Thompson and Marshall ..

 

[ellskimore]

There is no right or wrong answer here. I think a mix is required. I would argue that the Tiger's problems are deeper than just their recruitment incentive. And that Tedesco's development has not been halted in any way. His growth has been phenomenal and if not for a freakish season by RTS would have scored the fullback of the year.
A good judge of talent could make an informed prediction on which juniors are required over established first graders. I would definitely prefer the home-grown Aitken over the established Hopoate.

"The question here is - Do we recruit for success or do we recruit to build slowly without any guarantees for success.."

A good question. I think ultimately you have to recruit with an eye on the long term. The concern about signing Farah and losing Rein is potential immediate success at the expense of future building. With Benji already in the team it means two key positions will be tied up in two guys on their twilight years meaning we really need to push to replace those guys and have a plan for their departures. I think this example demonstrates your 'recruit for success'.

On the other side we could keep Rein. He could continue his progression and become a real weapon going into his prime years as a player. This would fit your 'slow build with no guarantees for success'.

I prefer the idea of building your team into a threat through measured planning than a fast approach. Let me leave my final thought. If you are to use Tigers as an example of the heavy junior investment going wrong, then we should also look at Parramatta being guilty of using the buy for success method and failing miserably. For many years the Eels have tried to use the quick approach to solve their problems buying outside talent for big amounts of money e.g. Sandow, Hopoate, Lussick, Poore, Watmough and so on.

What can be said about both the Eels and Tigers is that they have found themselves in salary cap trouble recently. They haven't planned well and have identified the a large amount of wrong players as part of their plans.

 

[giboz71]

Its a good question, and I too believe a mix is required.

Our premiership in 2010, everyone remembers Bennett and the new recruits like Boyd, Weyman, Costigan, Scott, Smith, Soward etc. These were all astute buys who obviously contributed to our success.

But look at the core of that team, Morris, Gasnier, Cooper, Creagh, Hornby, Young, Nighty. All local juniors who came through the ranks together.

Both the Rabbits and Roosters won premierships with a similar blueprint. Yes they had their stars but a big proportion of their winning squads were NYC graduates.

One thing is for sure, you're not gonna win a comp with a group of NRL journeymen and fringe first graders like we had in the Price years. What's worse, no juniors of note came through during that time in what could have been a rebuilding period. He set us back 3 years effectively.

The Dogs strategy of effectively buying their whole squad is flawed as well. They will always be up there but can they win the whole thing? Unlikely.

As I said a mixture of both is required. Would have been nice to keep Hastings and Bird and build a team around them, but we didn't have enough foresight to keep them. In reality, they have more talent than Brooks and Moses.

It's a tough mix to get right, and has now been made infinitely harder with the rumoured loss of Mulholland.

 

[Mr Red]

Taupau was recruited from the bulldogs, not a tigers junior.

i believe a mix of both local produced and imported players is needed not only to ensure you all have all positions covered to required levels, but also from a financial salary cap perspective you need to ensure you have enough locally produced players in the team as in most cases you can get the same quality at a cheaper rate.

 

[gregstar]

the nature of funding is changing the structure of clubs & the comp.

lower grades are diminishing, local junior incentives are inadequate, business models call for faster returns.

we are heading down the path of private franchising.

 

[grouch]

Our premiership in 2010, everyone remembers Bennett and the new recruits like Boyd, Weyman, Costigan, Scott, Smith, Soward etc. These were all astute buys who obviously contributed to our success.

But look at the core of that team, Morris, Gasnier, Cooper, Creagh, Hornby, Young, Nighty. All local juniors who came through the ranks together.

Spot on. I think we hit the right balance - basing our success onthe highest quality juniors, complemented by astute external recruits (all brought together by a top class external coach, but that's another matter).

I think we've veered too far away from this model. The team is now built on highly paid external recruits, complemented by some average to middling local talent, while the highest quality juniors are allowed to be poached. I don't think we have the financial base or clout to thrive as a recruit-minded club, like some others. We should base the club on it's strength - the main reason the joint venture exists in the first place really - the rich junior nursery.

 

[giboz71]

the nature of funding is changing the structure of clubs & the comp.

lower grades are diminishing, local junior incentives are inadequate, business models call for faster returns.

we are heading down the path of private franchising.

I understand that, but clubs like the Roosters and Rabbits have benefited from targeting the best young talent and having them in their system and transitioning them into the top grade. These guys are all debuting at 19 and 20 years of age.

Other than Aitken, we have no 19-20 year olds good enough and that's been a major problem for the last 3 years.

Hence, we can't be affording to lose such rare talents like Hastings and Bird as unlike other clubs, we don't have a production line of young talent coming through.

 

[gregstar]

I understand that, but clubs like the Roosters and Rabbits.....

who are basically privately owned franchises.

 

[Get2dachopper!]

So signing Farah goes against this mantra of a balanced squad. And then there's talk about extending Marshall........reminds me when he Bulldogs signed Ricky Stuart and brad Clyde at the end of their careers in 1998.

They didn't win the comp until 4 years later with a core group of juniors. Same when manly was building in 2005/2006. Even Brian Smith got close with parra, building that squad from the late 90's that should have won in 2001. The formula for success hasn't changed, although the expectation around the timeframes for achieving that succes have changed.

 

[ellskimore]

Another point is that I believe there is inevitably more of an attachment to your team if you have a solid junior representation. I think that was something that made 2010 so great. We had some external talent that was extremely important to our success but we had that group of guys that were in our system forever. Seeing Dean Young at full-time was a lasting image that wasn't just about him but about his passion for the team.
Not the greatest example but Gold Coast seem like a thrown-together team. When compared to the Cowboys and Broncos, they hardly register to me as a Queensland team. Although minor, I think it is a contributing reason as to why nobody gets behind them or even cares about them. They lack identity.

 

[giboz71]

So signing Farah goes against this mantra of a balanced squad. And then there's talk about extending Marshall........reminds me when he Bulldogs signed Ricky Stuart and brad Clyde at the end of their careers in 1998.

They didn't win the comp until 4 years later with a core group of juniors. Same when manly was building in 2005/2006. Even Brian Smith got close with parra, building that squad from the late 90's that should have won in 2001. The formula for success hasn't changed, although the expectation around the timeframes for achieving that succes have changed.

Its all about money isn't it? And it doesn't only apply to external recruits. This applies equally to juniors as well.

How the Roosters can have an NYC class in their side consisting of in recent times Hastings, Napa, Evans, Elliot, RTS and Tupou, and going back further Pearce, Friend and SKD without a junior base is beyond me.

Its not just money tho, the development of these players into quality FG players shows clubs like the Roosters know how to develop and nurture their young talent, and give them opportunities in the top grade despite having a loaded roster. This is why young kids want to play for them, its not just about the money. Why do you think they haven't skipped a beat whilst they lost 2 of their leaders in Pearce and JWH?

This is where we need to improve. We need to be seen as a club where young talent can develop. There hasn't been any evidence of this since Brown left.

 

[fribberjabbit]

There was most definitely something special about that 2010 win with all the juniors there. Without researching is there a prem winning team that comes close to that?
And I don't count the Broncos. And despite Broncos claiming otherwise a Mackay or Dysart junior is not a Broncos junior.

 

[Get2dachopper!]

Its all about money isn't it? And it doesn't only apply to external recruits. This applies equally to juniors as well.

How the Roosters can have an NYC class in their side consisting of in recent times Hastings, Napa, Evans, Elliot, RTS and Tupou, and going back further Pearce, Friend and SKD without a junior base is beyond me.

Its not just money tho, the development of these players into quality FG players shows clubs like the Roosters know how to develop and nurture their young talent, and give them opportunities in the top grade despite having a loaded roster. This is why young kids want to play for them, its not just about the money. Why do you think they haven't skipped a beat whilst they lost 2 of their leaders in Pearce and JWH?

This is where we need to improve. We need to be seen as a club where young talent can develop. There hasn't been any evidence of this since Brown left.

But we keep signing coaches who are under immense pressure to succeed straight away. When Brown came along in 2003 we were rebuilding after making 2 GF's within 3 years in the late 90's. I'd say we are in a similar situation now. Brown was probably the best at identifying talent and having the nerve to give them a go at first grade.

 

[giboz71]

There was most definitely something special about that 2010 win with all the juniors there. Without researching is there a prem winning team that comes close to that?
And I don't count the Broncos. And despite Broncos claiming otherwise a Mackay or Dysart junior is not a Broncos junior.

Imagine if we had won in one of 2005 and 2006.

We could have added Barrett, Timmins, Ryles, Thompson, Bailey, Poore, Naiqama, Head and Sims to the 2010 list.

Pretty much a whole side of local juniors.

 

[Slippery Morris]

You need a good mix and Saints have that.

In Rugby League you don't go through a season without injury. Its just not possible which is when these youngsters get a run. If they don't get a run then the team has not suffered many injuries. Hastings is in because Pearce or Friend got injured, Bird got a run because they suffered injuries, Elgey got a run because of Sezer. They took their chance with both hands and the rest is history. If Bird stayed he would have got a run instead of Aitken at centre but he chose to leave for more dollars.

If Saints get Farrah who is the NSW vice capt and one of the best current hookers going around then why would that be a bad thing. If he can last a full season then happy days. If not we get to see Havili get a run. With Farah in the books Saints will be a top 4 side with one of the best spines in the comp. If you look at the top 4 they all have a great spine. Rein was probably Saints weakness in that area and Farah will improve it big time.

Penrith got Civinoceva and everybody thought that was crazy. Best move they did because the forwards that followed probably got a tip or 2 having him around. Farrah will do the same. He will only help with the next generation of hookers. You don't just look at what they bring on the field but it is what they can bring off it. No suprise the Tigers halves in Moses and Brookes looking good now as they had Benji their before they made the grade. I am sure he played a part in their developement just like Benji will play a part in Hutch's developement.

There was this talk of Benji and Farrah not getting on but when the going got tough for Farah, Benji backed him up which shows how much that was a just a rumor. Marshall could have said nothing or if he really hated him layed the boot.

 

[ellskimore]

You need a good mix and Saints have that.

In Rugby League you don't go through a season without injury. Its just not possible which is when these youngsters get a run. If they don't get a run then the team has not suffered many injuries. Hastings is in because Pearce or Friend got injured, Bird got a run because they suffered injuries, Elgey got a run because of Sezer. They took their chance with both hands and the rest is history. If Bird stayed he would have got a run instead of Aitken at centre but he chose to leave for more dollars.

If Saints get Farrah who is the NSW vice capt and one of the best current hookers going around then why would that be a bad thing. If he can last a full season then happy days. If not we get to see Havili get a run. With Farah in the books Saints will be a top 4 side with one of the best spines in the comp. If you look at the top 4 they all have a great spine. Rein was probably Saints weakness in that area and Farah will improve it big time.

Penrith got Civinoceva and everybody thought that was crazy. Best move they did because the forwards that followed probably got a tip or 2 having him around. Farrah will do the same. He will only help with the next generation of hookers. You don't just look at what they bring on the field but it is what they can bring off it. No suprise the Tigers halves in Moses and Brookes looking good now as they had Benji their before they made the grade. I am sure he played a part in their developement just like Benji will play a part in Hutch's developement.

There was this talk of Benji and Farrah not getting on but when the going got tough for Farah, Benji backed him up which shows how much that was a just a rumor. Marshall could have said nothing or if he really hated him layed the boot.

The most telling thing for me that showed every rumour of a split between the two to be horse shit was when Farah's mum passed away and how physically distraught Benji was taking the field that weekend. You don't show that kind of emotion for a guy who you are 'at odds with'.

 

[Slippery Morris]

On NRL 360 Benji said that he sent Robbie a text when all this crap about his contract started a few months ago saying "Come to the Dragons". Sounds like he really hates him, better still shows he loves being at Dragons.

There you go, Mullholland will be replaced by Benji as our new recruit manager. Problem solved.

Lets get the rumor out that Benji and Mulholland had a fall out and Mullholand is leaving because of it and Benji is after his job. Get on to it Weidler.....

What happened to the rumor about the players not being happy with Mary a couple of weeks ago? Yeah before the finals game.

 

[Redvpassion]

Just got told the club will stick with rein. Don't think the Farrah deal will happen.

 

[BennyV]

Silly thread. You need a combination of both to succeed. But the club has been let down by not getting the balance right. They went too far with signing juniors despite their ability or lengevity (playing/paying certain players a year too long) and then they went too far down the recruitment road (wont bring juniors through, making large, impulse purchases) and now we have a f**ked up caps. We have an awesome junior base - one of the best - but we are missing a lot of ingredients required to BUILD a team of juniors:

Player Development - not just throwing kids in the deep end, but ACTUAL development of our talented juniors. I mean, we've had some incredibly talented kids come through yet very few have kicked on! Garvey was one of the best hookers in his age group. Runciman played junior kangaroos. Crook was rated above Luke 'next Andrew Johns' Brooks in all junior rep teams. But who is actual coaching these kids to take the next steps up? Who is taking their talents to the next level? Its starting to get fixed now, but for years it has been an issue.

Junior coaching - I know Deano and Hornbag may make good coaches in time, but not having decent junior coaches, (including NSW Cup, Logan is a plank) is related to player development and assists the kids coming through. Roosters bring through a whole heap of very talented juniors all at once on the back of the highly rated Paul Green looking after their juniors. Its a huge help. Likewise, several of our players have had their development haulted at NSW Cup level this year on the bag of a moron coaching Cutters. Fix the coaching setup goes a long way to building a good junior base.

Path to NRL - this has been a monstrous issue since Brown left. It's the reason we lost guys like Whare. Sure, they have highly rated players in front of them, but if they can see a development plan and pathway for them to get to first grade, they will hang around. For example, Luke Keary was initially stuck behind Sutton and Reynolds, but he stayed with Souths because he knew they had a plan for him. Munster will likely stay at Storm because he knows they have a plan to bring him through. Why aren't we planning to bring our decent juniors through? Why hasn't Hutch been played off the bench more often this year? Why wasn't Bird told there was a plan to bring him into the fold? Why are we buying backup halves instead of letting Crook have a taste? We should be getting these guys ready to take over form the older guys.

Planning - we do need to buy players to fill gaps. We need experienced players in key possitions who fit the mould of what the coach wants to do. But instead we make impulse buys and hope they work out. Due to lack of planning, we end up with a fullback (brilliant as he is) who doesnt have the skillset to executre the coaches plan, 2 running 5/8s and noone to direct the team around the park, a hooker who cant pass straight and reserve grade quality players on first grade money. And while I supprot the purchase of Farrell, it also comes off as an impulse buy. This is what Mulholland was on the way to fixing. He needs to be held onto in order to make that happen. That's long term planning and its essential to build a dynasty.

 

[coast_dragons]

Farrah isn't coming thank f**k for that.