How NRL should have looked after the reformation

[Perth Red]

We need to augment our junior playing base by a lot more than we have now and at the same time augment our fan base by appealing more to a broader base than we do now.

There is a much more interesting question around is the reach of current clubs maxed out or is there potential customers out there that those clubs could be attracting if they were providing something different or doing something different? ie Can Storm one day get 30k fans attending, could Panthers get 25k attending games, could TV be drawing 1.5million instead of 1 million, could sharks get 25k members?

if we think we have maxed out current customer bases then it will require new clubs in new areas to develop new customer bases. Or do we invest more heavily and strategically in attracting new customers in existing areas, if they exist? End of day we only really have three measures of our clubs customer bases
Tv audience (not very reliable as lots of variables each game)
Attendances
Memberships

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

We need to augment our junior playing base by a lot more than we have now and at the same time augment our fan base by appealing more to a broader base than we do now.

We need to make game day attendance trendy. I don't know how we do that, but if we can get more women and casual fans to attend games then we'll be able to convert some of them into diehard supporters.

 

[Perth Red]

We need to make game day attendance trendy. I don't know how we do that, but if we can get more women and casual fans to attend games then we'll be able to convert some of them into diehard supporters.

We've only ever had one leader with a goal of increasing attendances.
Smith put in the strat plan a target of 20k crowd avg within 5 years. No one before or since has even mentioned it. I suspect as most other leaders believe its the clubs job to grow crowds not the NRL's, or its too hard for them to figure out how to do it! NRL's key priority is maximising Tv revenue as that's where it gets its money, clubs should be about maximising crowd revenue as they could be earning a lot more from full houses than Tv is paying them in the grant.

 

[T-Boon]

This has been rehashed so many times lol. All the wishing in the world isnt going to turn back the clock! Deal with what we've got and keep growing.

No this is the first time.

 

[T-Boon]

We need to augment our junior playing base by a lot more than we have now and at the same time augment our fan base by appealing more to a broader base than we do now.

This is why I believe there needs to be a move to make school RL bigger. I am a fan of making SG ball and HM 3 game comps with semi's then finals and making the schoolboys cup a 10 round comp and have 30 schools in it and then 8 round school comps for lesser schools.
Kids don't want to join clubs on weekends very much any more. This means only the real keen kids join league. Have them play mid week or friday night at school will/may get less keen kids in and convert them.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

We've only ever had one leader with a goal of increasing attendances.
Smith put in the strat plan a target of 20k crowd avg within 5 years. No one before or since has even mentioned it. I suspect as most other leaders believe its the clubs job to grow crowds not the NRL's, or its too hard for them to figure out how to do it! NRL's key priority is maximising Tv revenue as that's where it gets its money, clubs should be about maximising crowd revenue as they could be earning a lot more from full houses than Tv is paying them in the grant.

Dave Smith didn't actually do anything to improve crowds. He just talked a big game.

Crowds will remain low as long as every match is broadcast in a unique timeslot. A Foxtel or Kayo viewer can watch all games live. Hardcore RL fans would rather watch as many games via Foxtel or Kayo than attend one live. Game day attendance prevents viewers from being able to do this.

Other sporting leagues, like the NFL, block out games in the local market and broadcast numerous games at the same time to entice attendance. AwFuL doesn't place every game in a unique timeslot.

It's a catch 22 situation. The bulk of the game's revenue come from the broadcasters, so they'll dictate when games are played. Crowds won't improve until it's better to see it live from the stands than watching it on Foxtel or Kayo.

Dave Smith did get more money out of Ch9 for four games a round, but I don't see any evidence he was going to do what the NFL do to promote game day attendance. Ch 9 also sold one of those games to Foxtel and provided them with simulcast rights for the other three, which pretty much gave RL fans another reason to get Foxtel and not worry about attending games. Ch9 played Dave Smith like a fiddle so they could extort money from Foxtel, but shot themselves in the foot as it led to viewers with a Foxtel subscription no longer needing Ch9. Foxtel used Dave Smith's deal with Ch9 to disparage our game and promote fumbleball, going as far as to say they would use their News Ltd publications in Brisbane and Sydney to make AwFuL popular.

 

[Perth Red]

Dave Smith didn't actually do anything to improve crowds. He just talked a big game.

Crowds will remain low as long as every match is broadcast in a unique timeslot. A Foxtel or Kayo viewer can watch all games live. Hardcore RL fans would rather watch as many games via Foxtel or Kayo than attend one live. Game day attendance prevents viewers from being able to do this.

Other sporting leagues, like the NFL, block out games in the local market and broadcast numerous games at the same time to entice attendance. AwFuL doesn't place every game in a unique timeslot.

It's a catch 22 situation. The bulk of the game's revenue come from the broadcasters, so they'll dictate when games are played. Crowds won't improve until it's better to see it live from the stands than watching it on Foxtel or Kayo.

Dave Smith did get more money out of Ch9 for four games a round, but I don't see any evidence he was going to do what the NFL do to promote game day attendance. Ch 9 also sold one of those games to Foxtel and provided them with simulcast rights for the other three, which pretty much gave RL fans another reason to get Foxtel and not worry about attending games. Ch9 played Dave Smith like a fiddle so they could extort money from Foxtel, but shot themselves in the foot as it led to viewers with a Foxtel subscription no longer needing Ch9. Foxtel used Dave Smith's deal with Ch9 to disparage our game and promote fumbleball, going as far as to say they would use their News Ltd publications in Brisbane and Sydney to make AwFuL popular.

In 2012 Dave Smith set a target then set about with a first step of growing memberships to 400k by centalising the recruitment and retention (which was then abandoned and we are still nowhere near the target ten years on). Along side that he started on a centralised stadium for some games in Sydney to boost crowds. then he was ousted.

Only 200k tune in to most of the games on Fox, suggesting there are plenty of fans who arent watching their clubs on tv when they are in PTV time slots (more than half of games each week). Other sports like AFL have even more local FTA covg but bigger crowds so I dont get that argument.

At a club level full stadiums will generate more revenue for themselves than TV will ever do. A full Bankwest stadium for every game and 40k members for the Eels would generate around $35-40million as opposed to the $13million they get from TV. One day NRL clubs will wake up to this fact and start catching up AFL club revenue!

Heres what one of the best supported AFL clubs in the country earnt from its fans and matchday in 2019
Memberships $24.9million (that's as much as some NRL clubs total revenues!)
Matchday $9.8million
Merchandise $3.9million
Then a full atmospheric stadium drives corporates to want boxes and a further $13.4million in corporate matchday revenue was earnt

That's $52million from juss fan revenue and matchday sales. That year they got $11milikon from TV grant.
Now try and tell me that TV is more important!!

I've never watched a game on TV and found it better than being at the stadium when its my team playing. You dont get the anticipation, excitement, emotional roller coaster, sensory experiences, shared mateship, dare I say it 'tribalism' etc sat in your lounge room.

'RL is better on TV' is just a weak excuse from lazy fans.
It'd be like saying listening to a stream of a band is better than going to a concert, it just isnt.

 

[Diesel]

I’d go one step further and instead of admitting the Broncos & Giants in 1988, the NSWRL & QRL should’ve formed their own combined competition of 12-14 teams

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

In 2012 Dave Smith set a target then set about with a first step of growing memberships to 400k by centalising the recruitment and retention (which was then abandoned and we are still nowhere near the target ten years on). Along side that he started on a centralised stadium for some games in Sydney to boost crowds. then he was ousted.

Only 200k tune in to most of the games on Fox, suggesting there are plenty of fans who arent watching their clubs on tv when they are in PTV time slots (more than half of games each week). Other sports like AFL have even more local FTA covg but bigger crowds so I dont get that argument.

At a club level full stadiums will generate more revenue for themselves than TV will ever do. A full Bankwest stadium for every game and 40k members for the Eels would generate around $35-40million as opposed to the $13million they get from TV. One day NRL clubs will wake up to this fact and start catching up AFL club revenue!

Heres what one of the best supported AFL clubs in the country earnt from its fans and matchday in 2019
Memberships $24.9million (that's as much as some NRL clubs total revenues!)
Matchday $9.8million
Merchandise $3.9million
Then a full atmospheric stadium drives corporates to want boxes and a further $13.4million in corporate matchday revenue was earnt

That's $52million from juss fan revenue and matchday sales. That year they got $11milikon from TV grant.
Now try and tell me that TV is more important!!

I've never watched a game on TV and found it better than being at the stadium when its my team playing. You dont get the anticipation, excitement, emotional roller coaster, sensory experiences, shared mateship, dare I say it 'tribalism' etc sat in your lounge room.

'RL is better on TV' is just a weak excuse from lazy fans.
It'd be like saying listening to a stream of a band is better than going to a concert, it just isnt.

AwFuL can make more money from gate receipts because their fanbase has twice as many people who want to attend fumbleball matches, presumably because it's the pinnacle of their sport.

Do you have any evidence that there's a massive appetite among RL fans to attend RL games at the same rate?

RL and RU just do not draw an average of 30k fans through the gate to watch a club competition. There's no RL or RU club competition in the world that draws an average attendance of 20k or more. The NRL draws higher attendances, TV ratings and broadcast revenue than any domestic RU competition

Remember the debate between me and that onionball troll ReddFelon or whatever his name is?

He was claiming that all of these nothing RU competitions from Britain, France and NZ were richer and more prestigious than the NRL. He tucked his tail between his legs and ran away when I pointed out that the attendances, TV ratings and broadcast revenue for the NRL is twice as big as the shit RU competitions he was fawning over.

The only thing our game has that draws 50k+ crowds is Origin and you want to kill it. The pinnacle of RL is Origin. Tests are the pinnacle of RU and they draw big crowds.

 

[flippikat]

I’d go one step further and instead of admitting the Broncos & Giants in 1988, the NSWRL & QRL should’ve formed their own combined competition of 12-14 teams

Precisely THIS.

In one swoop, we would have seen RL leapfrog VFL (as it was) in having a reconfigured top tier with the the code's 2 big heartland cities well covered, and scope then to go AFL-land & NZ in the 1990s.

In 1988, the VFL had Sydney (Swans relocated in early 80s), Perth & Brisbane (both added 1987), but they were still a couple of years from adding the Adelaide Crows. With a combined NSWRL/BRL "best of the best" top tier, the NRL would be well positioned to get into Perth & Adelaide BEFORE AFL put 2 teams in those markets!

 

[Phil McGrawhan]

In 2012 Dave Smith set a target then set about with a first step of growing memberships to 400k by centalising the recruitment and retention (which was then abandoned and we are still nowhere near the target ten years on). Along side that he started on a centralised stadium for some games in Sydney to boost crowds. then he was ousted.

Only 200k tune in to most of the games on Fox, suggesting there are plenty of fans who arent watching their clubs on tv when they are in PTV time slots (more than half of games each week). Other sports like AFL have even more local FTA covg but bigger crowds so I dont get that argument.

At a club level full stadiums will generate more revenue for themselves than TV will ever do. A full Bankwest stadium for every game and 40k members for the Eels would generate around $35-40million as opposed to the $13million they get from TV. One day NRL clubs will wake up to this fact and start catching up AFL club revenue!

Heres what one of the best supported AFL clubs in the country earnt from its fans and matchday in 2019
Memberships $24.9million (that's as much as some NRL clubs total revenues!)
Matchday $9.8million
Merchandise $3.9million
Then a full atmospheric stadium drives corporates to want boxes and a further $13.4million in corporate matchday revenue was earnt

That's $52million from juss fan revenue and matchday sales. That year they got $11milikon from TV grant.
Now try and tell me that TV is more important!!

I've never watched a game on TV and found it better than being at the stadium when its my team playing. You dont get the anticipation, excitement, emotional roller coaster, sensory experiences, shared mateship, dare I say it 'tribalism' etc sat in your lounge room.

'RL is better on TV' is just a weak excuse from lazy fans.
It'd be like saying listening to a stream of a band is better than going to a concert, it just isnt.

Simply put .
Aflol is a game better watched at the ground .
That has always been one of the main reasons for crowds .
RL action is where the ball is played so it's a perfect TV game .

 

[flippikat]

Simply put .
Aflol is a game better watched at the ground .
That has always been one of the main reasons for crowds .
RL action is where the ball is played so it's a perfect TV game .

Well, yeah that's a valid point - HOWEVER some of the AFL grounds are so vast that you'd be lucky to make out much of the on-the-ball skills.. surely it's as much the bonding with other fans & atmosphere as the actual gameplay itself.

The NRL needs to push the whole GameDay experience.. getting kitted out in your club colors, bringing banners, chanting from the stands, enjoying a halftime pie & beer, and the comraderie of standing with your club's fellow fans.

To do that & to encourage that requires stadiums that aren't antiquated dirtpiles and decent (efficient & affordable) transport.. I'm sorry, but for the casuals we'll need to attract for those crowd numbers, a "hill" won't cut it.

Centralize stadia, and get funding from State Govt into fast & frequent public transport.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I’d go one step further and instead of admitting the Broncos & Giants in 1988, the NSWRL & QRL should’ve formed their own combined competition of 12-14 teams

That would have been the best option. The richest clubs from each competition.

 

[flippikat]

That would have been the best option. The richest clubs from each competition.

With that in mind, who would you pick from NSWRL/BRL to make up the top tier in 1988, and what would the 2nd tier (equivalent to NSW/Qld Cup) be comprised of?

Also, how would you address expansion from there, and/or promotion-relegation pressures?

Keen to see what you would have done.

 

[T-Boon]

Simply put .
Aflol is a game better watched at the ground .
That has always been one of the main reasons for crowds .
RL action is where the ball is played so it's a perfect TV game .

I don’t think that’s the explanation. They are just more passionate about their code as most countries/cities are about their main code.
The most successful code of rugby is American football. It basically started out as rugby but then realised how boring rugby is an invented great new rules.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

With that in mind, who would you pick from NSWRL/BRL to make up the top tier in 1988, and what would the 2nd tier (equivalent to NSW/Qld Cup) be comprised of?

Also, how would you address expansion from there, and/or promotion-relegation pressures?

Keen to see what you would have done.

Wynnum Manly, Redcliffe, Easts and Fortitude Valley would have represented Brisbane. Maybe merge Easts and Wynnum to become the East Coast Seagulls and merge Sydney Wests with Canterbury to become the Western Sydney Bulldogs. Valleys would become the Brisbane Diehards.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

With that in mind, who would you pick from NSWRL/BRL to make up the top tier in 1988, and what would the 2nd tier (equivalent to NSW/Qld Cup) be comprised of?

Also, how would you address expansion from there, and/or promotion-relegation pressures?

Keen to see what you would have done.

That's a tricky question because poker machines were outlawed in QLD pre 1992 so you didn't have any rich poker machine funded clubs so it would have had to be a decision based on strategic location in South-East QLD, for example Redcliffe (North), Brisbane Tigers (City), Ipswich Jets (West), Gold Coast Tweed Seagulls (South).

The seagulls of course did have a big pokie den because they were located on the NSW side of the border. The other thing is you wouldn't be able to merge the comps until after 1992 otherwise the QLD clubs wouldn't compete financially and therefore wouldn't attract the talent.

 

[flippikat]

That's a tricky question because poker machines were outlawed in QLD pre 1992 so you didn't have any rich poker machine funded clubs so it would have had to be a decision based on strategic location in South-East QLD, for example Redcliffe (North), Brisbane Tigers (City), Ipswich Jets (West), Gold Coast Tweed Seagulls (South).

The seagulls of course did have a big pokie den because they were located on the NSW side of the border. The other thing is you wouldn't be able to merge the comps until after 1992 otherwise the QLD clubs wouldn't compete financially and therefore wouldn't attract the talent.

Fair point. Another thing to ponder is whether on-field success in the BRL transferred to financial success - if so, strong on-field BRL clubs of the '80s (notably Brisbane Souths & Wynnum-Manly) come into consideration too.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Fair point. Another thing to ponder is whether on-field success in the BRL transferred to financial success - if so, strong on-field BRL clubs of the '80s (notably Brisbane Souths & Wynnum-Manly) come into consideration too.

Clubs like Valleys and Wynnum Manly were in deep financial trouble by 1988. Wynnum came close to folding and Valleys ended up folding at the end of the 1995 season.

Redcliffe were in deep financial trouble in 1988 and were not sure they could pay their players.

Ipswich were in financial trouble during the mid-90s.

Wests folded at the end of 2003.

Scorpions struggled from the day they entered A-Grade and Reserve Grade in 1988. They were admitted into both grades after making the C Grade Grand Final in 1987. The 60 best players were plundered from the BRL after the 1987 season by the Broncos and cockroach clubs, so there wasn't any real talent for them to sign. Paul Bartier from Norths was their major signing. There was little media attention for the Scorpions due to the Broncos, so little in the way of sponsorship for the Scorpions. The club had trouble acquiring a liquor licence for their clubhouse, so they were losing money. They were made to sign a 15 year lease for Meakin Park, despite wanting to be based at Cronulla Park, that was more than they could afford and it sent them broke. The Logan City Council treated the club like shit.