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In praise of The Greatest

Javaman

Juniors
Messages
76
And it will have to be edited seeing Ricardo Lopez retired undefeated.

Not so. Kind of.
Ricardo Lopez fought as a Flyweight. Rock Marciano is stillto date, he is thefirst and onlyheavyweight champion of the world to retire undefeated.
But I did understand what you meant.
Poster Infuzer,
My opinion only of course.
And I respect that as much as anyone elses here.

Javaman signing off for a few days.


 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Here's an interesting idea I found on the cnnsi website:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/centurys_best/boxing/

final_bracket.gif


Now that I look at it closer I see the writer has mixed in fighters of smaller weight classes, which doesn't seem to make sense. Maybe he explained the concept in the original article.
 
Messages
26
I also cannot contemplate that list of Richard Hoffler's. The best-of-the-best in the heavyweight, or any other division, would have been more appealing in my opinion.
In many sport's, and in particular boxing it seems, people will always comparestars of yesteryear to those of more recent. It's always purely hypothetical at best. Fans have been comparing footy, socer, basketball and many other sport's stars for centuries. It never is an accurate account. Though it always makes for an enchanting descussion.
I cannot see how fighters like Willie Pep, Roberto Duran and Henry Armstrong made his greatest of all weight catgories list. For example, Williw Pep was a two-time featherweight championwho engaged in many fights {242 TB} in a career spanning almost 26 years. Of those 242 total bouts however, he only ever foungt a top 10 contendor on 35 ocassions. A poor percentage.Hardly a great achievement. Of all the things I've read or seenaboutWillie Pep, makes me beileve that he was more a "dancer" type boxer than a fighter/boxer in say the Ali or Louis scale. Apparently, his ring "artistery" is admired to this day morse than his boxing prowess. He once won a complete round without even throwing a single punch, because his tactical movements kept his opponent {Bill Speary} completely off balance. I was never a fan of Roberto Duran and considered him more a thug and brawler type fighter {similar to Sonny Liston; though not as "crooked"}, rather than an elegant boxer in the S-R-Robinson or Joe Louis league. Henry Armstrong was tremendouslyoverated in my opinion. He had tremendous resiliance to hits and was a KO specialist, but his name is mentioned more in the greatest league because he held three different weight division titles simultaneously rather than his boxing flare and finess.
Fighters {heavyweights mainly} like George Foreman, Floyd Patterson, Archie MooreandEzzard Charles {to name just a few} would have made for a more intriguing comparison in my opinion. But of course there are only eight names.
Sugar Ray Robinson would have won my "Greatest of all time" list. Somewhat easily.
 
Messages
497
You have the boxing knowledge and writing style of a recently departed member (that's a compliment BTW). I thought (hoped actually) you may have returned under a different username.
Nevermind mate. My bad. Good post BTW.
I alsosaw you spelt my username wrong in reply 286. He would never have. SoI believe you...:p
Cheers mate.
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
I agree that a hypothetical all-heavyweight tournament makes more sense than the one I posted with mixed weight classes. I suppose we have gone over the merits of all time heavyweight greats thoroughly in the past on this thread and other boxing threads.
 
Messages
26
A good article from ESB which is fitting to this thread and its discussion.

The Greatest Gifts Of All
aliliston.jpg
By Frank J. Lotierzo
16.05 - What was it Muhammad Ali possessed that allowed him to defeat "Smokin" Joe Frazier in two out of three fights? What was that one weapon that he possessed enabling him to prevail? It is something that is overlooked when evaluating the three classic fights between these two former all-time great Heavyweight Champions. When thinking back to sports greatest rivalry, it's easy to overlook the one factor, which would determine who history would regard as the better fighter. The difference maker in these three fights came down to the overall abundance of body strength and durability of Muhammad Ali. Throw out his hand-speed and lightning fast combinations, the great footwork, the overall ability to adapt and improvise during the course of the fight, and the tremendous psychological warfare Ali employed on his opponents. The Bottom line is that Ali had a cast iron chin, complemented by a concrete body and very underrated physical body strength. Not one of the gaudy weapons Ali displayed physically mattered in victory. It was the weapons we couldn't see until the terms warranted them to be brought out and shown to us. Bottom line Ali could absorb Frazier's relentless assault and return his own. Can you picture any other boxer other than Ali surviving "Smokin" Joe Frazier, I can't! Frazier is the perfect foil for a boxer. Here's the problem with a boxer trying to survive Frazier, he won't let boxers box him; he put unrelenting pressure on them, which forces them to fight him instead of boxing him. The Heavyweight division has yet to deliver another boxer on Ali's level who can take the pressure and not be too spent to fight back. Regardless of how skillful the boxer was, boxing fundamentals frequently go out the window under the non-stop pressure of Frazier's tireless assault. The other problem that boxers face is Frazier coming in bobbing and weaving better than any swarming heavyweight in history. Frazier will hit you to the body or the head. There isn't a safe place in the ring. His punches to the body sapped a fighters strength and will; his left hook to the chin separated one's senses from one's legs. Smokin Joe would cut off your space and punching distance while closing in to position himself to thoroughly work you over. And lastly, Joe Frazier had a great chin, so if you're not George Foreman, you couldn't keep him off you. Eventually boxer's were worn down by Frazier and were counted out, or the referee came to the boxers aid by stopping the fight before they are counted out. Look what Frazier did to some very good boxers, excluding Ali. Buster Mathis was big and had the feet of a ballet dancer; he also had fast hands and the mental advantage of defeating Frazier twice in the box-offs for a berth on the 1964 Olympic team. They fought fours years later for the New York State Heavyweight title. History would go on to show that Mathis had three beautiful rounds in 1 thru 3, and 7 terrible rounds finally being counted out in round 11. This was typical of most of Joe's fights when he fought a good boxer. Mathis started off moving and jabbing, keeping Frazier at a distance. Against Frazier this could only prolong the inevitable. While Mathis is trying to box and keep Frazier from pinning him against the ropes, he was paying a price. Frazier was forcing Mathis to use up his strength and energy by the minute. One other subtle thing was happening; Mathis slowly but surely lost his will. Mathis began asking himself what can he do to keep Frazier off of him. As the will and energy start to erode, Frazier picks up the pace and gets closer working Mathis' body over. It's only a short time before his legs go and he will be slowed to a walk, incapable of escaping Frazier's relentless pressure. The deeper the fight went the more damage had been done. After about two minutes into round 11 the end comes in classic Frazier fashion as he dug a hook to the Mathis body taking his air and legs, then Joe shot the hook to the head which makes Mathis drop to the canvas as though he was dropped from a helicopter, Fight over. Ali not only endured this type assault, he returned it with an assault of his own! With a cast iron chin, concrete body, and physical strength, Ali could hold Joe off. June 23, 1969 Heavyweight Champ Joe Frazier defended his title against the second ranked heavyweight in the world, the counter punching Jerry Quarry. Quarry found out that you couldn't counter punch the non-stop pressure and the continuous punching of Frazier. Being forced to fight the first two rounds Quarry got the better of Joe. Move ahead to round 5, and Quarry found himself pinned against the ropes with not a whole lot left in his gas tank to keep Frazier from working him over. During the fight broadcaster Howard Cosell called Angelo Dundee who is sitting ringside with WBA Champ Jimmy Ellis. Cosell calls Dundee over to the broadcast table and says to Dundee "Alright Angie lets hear it once and for all, is your man Ellis going to meet Frazier", Dundee replies " Jimmy will be happy to meet Frazier, I assure he won't have his back to the ropes like that ". Oh how wrong he was, Jerry wasn't on the ropes because he chose to be, Frazier had taken his legs and Quarry could not escape.
February 16, 1970, Frazier and Ellis meet for Undisputed Heavyweight title. Ellis, a cute boxer with a sneaky stiff right hand won the first two rounds. Frazier got closer in each minute of the fight. Midway through round 3 Frazier caught Ellis with a brutal left hook to the chin, Ellis is wobbled for a brief second and you see the wind taken from his sail. By the end of the round Ellis was pinned against the ropes and Frazier is landing body shots and short hooks to the head. When the bell rings to end the round Ellis was a different fighter going back to his corner. The bell rang for round 4, and the fight has now turned Frazier's way. Frazier had Ellis right where he wanted him, it's now predator vs. prey. Frazier pinned Ellis to the ropes and once again is landing hooks to the head and short rights to the body. Ellis crumbles to the canvas. Ellis shows tremendous heart and rises at about the count of five. Frazier and Ellis meet at center ring after the first knockdown and Frazier starts crashing Ellis with hooks to the body and head. Frazier dipped and came up with a left hook, which was the second best left hook I have seen a heavyweight land. (Frazier's hook, which dropped Ali, was the best.) Ellis was down and badly hurt, and the bell rings to end round 4. Referee Tony Perez reached five in the count and the bell couldn't save Ellis. Ellis showed tremendous heart once again he beat the count and stumbled to his corner. Dundee new the fight was over and merely saved his fighter for another. Ellis, a very good boxer with a stiff right hand had found out Frazier doesn't let you box, and if you don't have guns big enough to keep from being steam rolled the end is a foregone conclusion. Frazier and Ellis met again in 1975, Frazier was sharpening up for his upcoming third bout with Ali. Ellis is hoping that if he could upset Frazier, it could lead to a rematch with Ali and a title shot. This time Ellis makes it to round 9, with the pattern almost the same as the first fight; Ellis had a pretty good first 3 or 4 rounds and at the least has split them by a close margin. Once again it's just a matter of time before the steamroller was at running temperature and Ellis is stopped in round 9. Ali endured this type of assault and returned his own assault, which slowed Joe's pace of pressuring him. Cast iron chin, concrete body, and the physical strength to tie Frazier up and bring the steamroller to a halt. This enabled him to catch a breath and regroup for the remainder of the round. In case it hasn't sunk in, Cast Iron chin, concrete body, underrated physical strength and determination equal to Frazier's.
ali_frazier.jpg
The proof, (Frazier-Ali 1). Ali came out extremely fast throwing the hardest punches he's ever thrown at any opponent from round 1 thru 5. His plan was to get Frazier out and if he didn't Frazier would've taken so much punishment that he wouldn't be effective in the last third of the fight. As we know Frazier was stunned pretty good in those rounds but they took a toll on Ali going for the execution, now it was Joe's turn. Ali had found out that there is no half-court game with Joe Frazier; it's fast break all the way. In rounds 6, 7, and 8 Ali is now flatfooted and had to endure the relentless Frazier assault. About a minute into round 9 Ali summons great reserve and has a big round and stunned Joe in the last twenty seconds to have his last big round. Round 10 was a pretty close round with Frazier having a slight edge. In round 11 Ali came the closest he had ever been to being stopped in his career. Midway through the round Ali is spent and is forced to rest in the corner, Frazier connects with a double left hook to the body and head that has Ali in the dream room and close to being stopped, Ali's underrated physical strength and cast iron chin allowed him to make it through the round. Rounds 12 and 13 Frazier worked Ali's body and head and over, cast iron chin, and concrete body allow Ali once again to make it through the round. Ali has a good round 14 moving and boxing winning the round. Twenty-four seconds into the 15th and final round Frazier hits Ali with the fiercest left hook I ever saw a heavyweight throw, Ali goes down as if his legs were taken out from under him, he got up at the count of two, concrete chin. Frazier worked his body and head for the remainder of the round, however Ali made it through the fight and loses a unanimous decision Why; cast iron chin, concrete body and unmatched physical strength and recuperative powers never seen before in a heavyweight. The proof, (Ali-Frazier rematch). Once again Ali came out moving and circling forcing Frazier to chase more than stalk, but Ali can't do this the entire fight. Ali takes 4 of the first 6 rounds. Rounds 7 and 8 Ali needed a rest, Frazier is smokin now. Ali is too tired to move and had no choice but to lean against the ropes and endure Joe's bombs. Again, concrete body, cast iron chin allow Ali to remain on his feet. When the body starts hurting, Ali called on his physical strength to grab Frazier. By clinching with Frazier, Ali prevented further damage. After taking a good going over by Frazier in rounds 7 an 8 Ali came out fast and hard in round 9 moving and stopping to plant and fight Joe scoring with stinging three and four punch combinations. The physical strength allowed Ali to recuperate and do damage. Round 10, Ali needed a rest again and Joe takes the round landing good shots to Ali's body and head. In round 11 once again Ali comes out fighting and wins a very competitive round. In round 12 Frazier senses he may need a big round. Frazier came out to kill Ali. Frazier lands some big hooks to Ali's chin early in the round, once again Ali's recuperative powers came to life and Ali finished the last minute with a big rally taking the round on two of three cards. Ali wins a Unanimous decision. Once again, cast iron chin, concrete body, and physical strength helped to fuel Ali's unmatched recuperative power. The proof, (Ali-Frazier Thrilla in Manila). As the pattern in the previous two fights, Ali started quickly once again and shook Frazier in rounds 1 and 2. The pace had slowed a little in rounds 3 and 4, with Ali picking his spots he scored cleanly. Round 5 saw Frazier starting to get inside and work Ali's body while slipping in exploding left hooks to Ali's jaw. Round 6 sees Frazier land one of his calling card left hooks against Ali's chin and stops him in his track. Ali stopped and pinned against the ropes is now in Frazier's kitchen and the heats starting to rise as Joe takes the round. In round 7 Ali came out moving and circling while scoring with the jab. Again, recuperative powers allowed Ali to box cleanly and win the round. Round 8 saw Ali come out landing some of his best punches of the fight and had Frazier covering up. Here Joe showed his ability to recuperate and by round's end Frazier cleaned up on Ali. In rounds 9 and 10 Frazier whacked Ali from corner to corner, by rounds end Ali looked like a beaten fighter. Half way through round 11 Ali got his second or third wind and started fighting Frazier on even ground winning a close round. Round 12 saw Ali display for the viewing audience the unbelievable strength to grab Frazier and push Frazier off him, and at the same time started to land stinging combinations on Frazier. By the end of the 12th round, Frazier looked the way most of his opponents look after a long grueling fight with him. Rounds 13 and 14 saw Ali get his fourth or fifth wind and cleaned up on Frazier with accurate stinging combinations which seemed almost impossible after enduring one of the most brutal body attacks ever seen in a heavyweight championship fight. After knocking out Frazier's mouthpiece in the process the bell ended round 14 with Frazier walking slowly to his corner, Frazier now experienced once again what a majority of his opponents have, hitting an opponent with everything and still can't keep him from coming at you. With Frazier's eyes almost swollen shut, his trainer Eddie Futch stopped the fight and saved Frazier from taking any further punishment in round 15. How did Ali do this? The reason Ali survived Frazier being a boxer who doesn't have the punch to keep Frazier from coming after him was because, his overall body strength was grossly underrated and he had one of the best chin's of any heavyweight ever, which enabled him to endure Frazier's never ending pressure. Just look at the way he could tie up Frazier, Foreman, and Liston and keep them from being able to do anything. If Ali's body strength and chin were less, he would have been 0-3 vs. Frazier. And no way could he have withstood the onslaught of Liston and Foreman as well. That's why he is the greatest heavyweight champion who has yet lived. Cast iron chin, concrete body to take unbelievable body shots and extremely underrated physical body strength which allowed him to give out more than he took. What a fighting machine. Not only was Ali gifted with never before seen skills in a heavyweight before him, this package of fighter was wrapped with every bit the toughness and determination of a Greb or Marciano an even Frazier. Toughness and will coupled with unbelievable strength is why he could survive with and ultimately defeat a steamroller like Joe Frazier. Muhammad Ali had more ways and weapons to defeat great fighters than any other Heavyweight champ in history. Muhammad Ali, yes he could've defeated any other heavyweight champion in boxing history if they were both to meet at their best. And that's not up for conjecture! Writers Note: And to you "Smokin" Joe Frazier, Ali is the only Heavyweight "boxer" who could've defeated you. And he didn't shut you out. We'll never forget the night of March 8, 1971 for on this night you were not to be denied, not even by Ali. On this night you stamped the pattern as to how swarming fighters should fight movers and boxers. And no body did it better than you for 15 rounds. As far as other past boxers or counter punchers who have held the heavyweight title. None of them could have lived with you, or dream of surviving you. To those of you who are unsure of the fighters I' am talking about, they are the following: Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Floyd Patterson, Larry Holmes, and Evander Holyfield. On their best day they don't get a win over Frazier, on Frazier's best day.

 

Javaman

Juniors
Messages
76
Thank you for the article poster Trojan Horse and welcome to the boards.
It's both well written and enlightens the reader to some good points about Ali. I agree with much of it, but some of it is also up for debate. Writer Frank J. Lotierzogets carried awaywith some sections of the articleas he emphasizes and exagerates too much about Ali's strength and the Ali-Frazier bouts, but overall it is well researched and opinionated.
I could quote so many sections of this article and give my opinions which are completelydifferent to the writer's (and I think some are ludicrous), but I'll just end by re-posting a quote from Joe Frazier on a post I did earlier in this topic.
"Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Rocky Marciano is second only to Louis." Joe Frazier
Funny howFrazier eludes the nameAli. Don't you think? I wonder if Ali would have ranked as Frazier's 3rd best...or 4th...or 5th...?
Javaman.
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Good post, Trojan Horse. I tend to agree with more of it than Javaman does. One thing the writer doesn't dwell on much was how George Foreman was able to destroy Frazier.

Javaman, do you think Frazier may have left out Ali's name due to his well-known animosity to Ali?

I still think, as I expressed way back in this thread, that Louis and Ali are the 2 greatest ever, and that Frazier among others would have beaten Marciano.

Good to see you posting Javaman.
 

Infuzer

Juniors
Messages
101
That page at East Side Boxing is a good one.
I found the article below of there. I've always been a big fan of Smokin Joe, but the guy cops alot of shit for his hiding at the hands of the mountain-horse Foreman. The writer seems to addressit well in this article though.
The Unforgettable Fire of Smokin Joe
alifra.jpg
By Frank J. Lotierzo
glovedfist@juno.com
During the final countdown of the past millennium, we had been subjected to an overwhelming number of Top Ten lists. I had paid particular attention to the lists ranking history's top ten greatest heavyweight champions. After reviewing several boxing publications, internet sites and conducting a personal survey of writers and trainers, I found two irrefutable parallels: (1) Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis were named one and two a majority of the time and (2) Joe Frazier was often found in the bottom third and consistently behind Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano. The names Holyfield and Tyson were usually above Frazier as well. I found myself wondering if the individuals who ranked these fighters saw the same Joe Frazier I did during the years 1968 through 1974. Perhaps ABC replayed Frazier-Foreman I so many times that Howard Cosell's call of "Down goes Frazier, down goes Frazier, down goes Frazier" is what most remember when recalling the career of Smokin' Joe. Maybe the overwhelming presence of Muhammad Ali during the 70's and the emergence of the colorful George Foreman of the 90's have overshadowed the accomplishments of Frazier's renowned boxing career. Looking back at Frazier's career, several things stand out. He was without peer as a body puncher. He fought with never-ending stamina and became stronger as the fight progressed. He cut off the ring and forced his opponents to fight his fight at his pace and possessed a left hook that was without equal in the heavyweight division. Frazier's record is a virtual list of the top heavies of the late 60's through the mid-70's. As early as his 11th pro bout, he took on the "Argentine Bull," Oscar Bonavena who was a veteran of over 30 fights as a pro. After being down twice in the 2nd Round, Frazier stormed back to win the hard-fought 10 Round decision. He was the first to stop the iron-chinned Jerry Quarry and the reigning WBA Heavyweight Champion Jimmy Ellis. Frazier will always be remembered as the first fighter to defeat Muhammad Ali in the biggest and most highly anticipated fight in history. It has been said Frazier won because Ali had just returned to the ring after a 43-month layoff. What is sadly overlooked is that Ali was still a great fighter and fought one of the best fights of his career that night. Frazier's strength, aggression and determination made it impossible for Ali to fight at anything but his best, or Frazier would have half killed him. Had Ali fought anyone except Joe Frazier that night, he would have been a knockout winner. Let's not forget that Frazier was no walk in the park for Ali in their second fight and that he had Ali thinking "No Mas" after the 10th Round of their third and most grueling fight in Manila. Ali has been quoted as saying Frazier was the roughest and toughest fighter he ever faced in the ring. No one can deny the fact that Ali fought the world's top heavyweights from 1960 through 1980. Shouldn't his opinion count for something when evaluating Frazier? He fought more rounds against him than any other fighter. Over the years Smokin' Joe has been criticized because he never fought any big punchers other than George Foreman. My retort to that is, unless you are talking Baer, Louis or Shavers, every other fighter looks like Slapsie Maxie if Foreman is the measuring stick. Manuel Ramos stood 6' 3" and weighed 230 pounds and had a pulverizing right uppercut that Frazier walked through on his way to scoring a 2nd Round knockout. Oscar Bonavena was a 6' 210 pound wall of granite. In their second fight, with Frazier's title on the line, Frazier cruised to victory, winning almost all 15 rounds on the judges' cards. Jerry Quarry was a good enough puncher that the 6'3" Ron Lyle retreated after being hit with Quarry's bombs, and Earnie Shavers could not get out of the 1st Round with Quarry. Frazier stood up to the hardest punches Quarry ever landed and kept coming forward and wearing Quarry down. Joe repeated his performance more thoroughly five years later when they met a second time. How about Ali? Ali hit hard enough to be the first to stop Liston and Lyle and was the only one to stop Bonavena and Foreman. The rugged Chuck Wepner was knocked down only once, accomplished by Ali something Liston and Foreman could not do. Joe Frazier, over the course of three fights, spent 41 grueling rounds in the ring with Ali. During that time Ali hit Frazier with some of the swiftest combinations and hardest punches he ever hit any opponent with and did not knock him down. The only time Frazier was stopped by Ali was in the Manila fight. His eye was completely swollen shut and he was getting hit with punches he could not see. Frazier's title tenure lasted five years. He made ten successful defenses, winning eight by knockout. He lost the title to Foreman and failed to regain it from Ali. Some of the fighters who were often ranked higher than Frazier lost their titles to fighters who on their best day would be honored to pay their way into the gym just to see him shadow box. Mike Tyson was stripped of his title by a journeyman named Buster Douglas. Michael Moorer, a fat light heavyweight, dethroned Evander Holyfield and Michael Spinks, a manufactured heavyweight, beat Larry Holmes. You do not need me to tell you that Douglas, Moorer and Spinks would have had more than their feelings hurt had they attempted to take Frazier's title. Two fighters Frazier is most unfavorably compared to are Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano. Who did they fight anywhere near the caliber of Ali or Foreman? How do we know how Dempsey and Marciano would have fared had they fought the Foreman of 1973-74? Don't be mislead that it is a foregone conclusion either one of them would have been victorious. Dempsey was knocked out in the 1st Round by Fireman Jim Flynn and knocked out of the ring by Luis Firpo. A left hook courtesy of 38-year old Jersey Joe Walcott dropped Marciano, and 40-something Light Heavyweight Champ Archie Moore put Rocky down. Is it a reach to say Dempsey and Marciano would have been stopped by the Foreman who made Frazier a former champ? Not one bit! Over the years many blanket statements have been made diminishing Frazier's accomplishments because of the way he lost to Foreman. I have this to say to those who have admonished him. Foreman is not just another puncher. He came back and won the title at age 45 with a one-punch knockout. Foreman throws arm punches and has knocked out fighters from 1969 through 1995. Boxing has never seen such a monstrosity, before him or since. Dempsey, Marciano. Holmes, Tyson and Holyfield have never shared a ring with a fighter who is in the same zip code as Foreman in punching power. Holyfield barely survived his fight with him when he was 42. After thoroughly and objectively reviewing Frazier's career, it is abundantly clear that to beat him you had to be a great fighter. Two fighters can claim victory over Frazier, George Foreman, the most powerful heavyweight in the last hundred years and maybe ever, and Muhammad Ali, the most skilled and widely accepted as the greatest heavyweight ever. Ali is a legend today because of his victory over Foreman. You can't have it both ways.



 
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Vertigo

Guest
I could quote so many sections of this article and give my opinions....
Go ahead Javaman. I for one, sure do enjoy reading your comments on these boards.
V.
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Great post #294 Infuzer. I agree that Frazier at his best would have beaten Marciano, Tyson and Holyfield.

I just saw this weekend a replay of a fight I'd fogotten about. It was George Foreman against Ron Lyle in 1976, Foreman's first fight after losing to Ali in Zaire in 74. It was quite a fight for punching power, but not much boxing skill. Lyle staggered Foreman in the 1st round, and knocked him down twice in the 4th. In between those knockdowns Foreman knocked Lyle down in the 4th. In the 5th Lyle seemed to have Foreman in trouble again, before George recovered and knocked Lyle out near the end of the 5th. In the post-fight interview George told Howard Cosell he felt rusty not having fought since the Ali fight, and that's why Lyle was able to knock him down.

I'm fuzzy on the rest of Foreman's career, I think he lost to Jimmy Young after the Lyle bout, maybe in 77, and then didn't fight much much or at all until his comeback years later as an older fighter. He seemed to lose his aura of invincibility after the loss to Ali, and was never the same again. The other interesting thing is when he was young he was this quiet, brooding, intimidating monster, and when he came back in the late 80's he was a genial, joking, talkative guy who's become a pitchman for products on US TV.

The article in post #294 speculates that Joe Frazier's all time ranking has been reduced by the memory and image of his loss to Foreman. Similarly, I wonder how much higher Foreman would have ranked if he'd not lost to Ali, and had continued his early unbeaten, power-punching ways for a longer time when he was younger.
 

Infuzer

Juniors
Messages
101
Here you go fellas.

Ranking The Heavyweights "Louis through Lewis"
lot.jpg
By Frank Lotierzo

<u>
Why Louis through Lewis</u>


Being a fight collector, I've seen all the films that are available of Jack Johnson, Jim Jeffries, Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney along with other past greats. Personally, I don't feel comfortable ranking fighters that far back. It's too easy for some to dismiss them saying they weren't that good, but I don't adhere to that mind set. It's just very hard to grasp their greatness due to the old films, which captured them. The films do them no justice and, with no audio, make it even more difficult to get a true appreciation of their greatness. I have a problem with those who just brush them off because they fought in another era and have adopted the attitude that if it wasn't shown on HBO or it wasn't a <span>Sportscenter</span> highlight, it doesn't mean anything. Starting around the Joe Louis era the film and audio quality improved tremendously. There isplenty of good film available on the fighters from Louis forward, and I feel that it's more than adequate to get a good feel for thefighters. Plus, Louis was the new wave of fighter, way ahead of his time. <u>Louis &amp; Ali</u> In this writer's opinion, Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali are at the top of boxing's heavyweight Mount Rushmore. I am very confident that both of them would defeat all the fighters on this list. Ali and Louis have too many weapons and skills for the other fighters, and they are much more resourceful and complete. So, why do I have Ali over Louis? Most of the time when great fighters face each other, it very often comes down to styles. In a Louis-Ali match up, the style advantage goes to Ali. Other than Billy Conn, and Jersey Joe Walcott, most of Louis' opponents went to him, which played perfectly into his style. Fighters who moved away or circled caused him some difficulty. Ali's overall speed and movement would make it very difficult for Louis to catch him to where he could unload his precision combinations in order to do the damage he would need to slow Ali. On the other hand, Louis fights a style that Ali is accustomed to facing. Louis would pressure him but not like Frazier or Foreman did, trying to force Ali to react when he didn't want to. Louis applied more subtle pressure, which is something Ali could handle and exploit, and Louis didn't change for any fighter. Louis would just bide his time waiting for Ali to make a mistake, instead of trying to force him into making one like Frazier and Foreman did. This favors Ali. The bottom line is I take Ali over Louis mainly because Louis would have to change and adjust his fighting style and posture and Ali wouldn't. Another reason I favor Ali over Louis is that he beat better fighters. In Liston, Frazier and Foreman, Ali beat three fighters who make almost everyone's all-time heavyweight top ten ranking. In the case of Frazier and Foreman, Ali defeated them after his43 month exile, while they were in their respective prime. Ali also is the only heavyweight champion in history whose opponents cannot be questioned, even by the harshest critics.One final thought on Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali, it is my firm belief that both of them are plenty big enough to more than handle the "so-called" giant heavyweight's fighting today. Both Louis and Ali defeated fighters as big or bigger thanthose currently fighting today.When reviewing both of their career's, it's quite obvious that both of them were more troubled by smaller and quicker fighters opposed to the bigger hulking type ponderousfighters of today. Below are my heavyweight rankings in order from Joe Louis through Lennox Lewis. From number three George Foreman on, I give my scenario on how I see a match up involving Louis &amp; Ali versus the fighters ranked3 through 10. <u>How I Rated the Fighters</u> I'm a believer in head-to-head, and feel it carries much weight when rating one fighter over another. For me to rate Fighter A over Fighter B, I must feel strongly that A would've defeated B had they confronted each other on their best night. I also think length of title reign can sometimes be misleading. For example, Liston made only one title defense and Foreman only made two. However, both of their title tenures were cut short because they fought during the Ali era. Had Ali not been around, Liston could have remained champ through 1970, and Foreman could have reigned champ from 1973 into the 1990's. Remember, Foreman did capture the title a second time in November of 1994, and that was after a ten-year ring absence. I ranked George Foreman very high for the fact he was the best puncher in heavyweight history, and had he not lost to Ali, he may have never been beaten. A closer look at Sonny Liston's career reveals that other than losing a decision to Marty Marshall in his eighth pro bout, which he avenged twice,Liston totally went through the division. His defeats by Ali were later in his career and he was an old man by the time Leotis Martin beat him. Next is Joe Frazier, whom I have no doubtsome will say I have ranked too high. In my opinion, Frazier is admonished too harshly for his defeats by Foreman. Those that say Frazier couldn't fight big punchers basically mean Foreman! Foreman is the best puncher in heavyweight history. On top of that, from a style standpoint, Frazier is made for Foreman, and Foreman is the only fighter to walk through Frazier. Of theten times Frazier's been down, eight are by the sledgehammer fist of Big George. Frazier never lost to any fighter he shouldn't have. Other than Marciano, no other fighter on this list can say that. It also must be pointed out that Frazier gave Ali life and death all three times they fought, and on the night of March 8th, 1971 Frazier gave boxing one of the greatest performances by any heavyweight ever, winning the biggest fight in boxing history. I rated Frazier above Marciano mainly because I just can't envision a fighter smaller than Joe beating him, and Marciano would be more prone to getting cut had they fought. However, I go back and forth on Frazier and Marciano, on another day I could easily rate Rocky over Joe. Some may think Rocky Marciano should be ranked higher because he was undefeated, but I think that it's very realistic that had some of the above fighters fought during the time he did, they also may have gone undefeated, and that's not taking anything away from Rocky. Marciano had dynamite in both fists and a jaw that was immune to being hit. He was the best-conditioned heavyweight ever, and no one was tougher. Next is Larry Holmes, who possessed the best jab in heavyweight history along with Liston. Holmes had the heart of a champion and was most dangerous when he was hurt. He also could fight and adapt to all different style opponents. Evander Holyfield is next, and without question, he's the biggest overachiever in heavyweight history, he also was outweighed in all of his fights at heavyweight except four. He also defeated every top fighter of his generation. Current champ Lennox Lewis has never met a fighterhe wasn't able to defeat, and like Holyfield, fought and defeated the best of his era (I rate Holyfield above Lewis because I say at their best Holyfield decisions Lewis. When they fought, Holyfield was capableof only fighting in spurts, which made it impossible for him to outscore Lewis in hopes of winning a decision. Evander also had a better chin than Lennox, which is a must in the heavyweight division). Mike Tyson is next. I think Tyson is somewhat of an underachiever, despite having tremendous physical talent. Heis also winless against the best fighters he's faced. However, his punching power and hand speed cannot be denied. I also throw out a fight when a great loses to another great when one fighter is coming out of retirement or is obviously a shell of what they were at their best. Regarding the fighters on this list I don't consider, Holmes over Ali, Marciano over Louis and Tyson over Holmes when making my rankings. The way I see it, number three beats number four more times in 10 fights than number four would beat number three. This is how I come to my conclusions ranking the fighters one through 10. Rankings 1-10 1-Muhammad Ali: (times knocked down-four) (times stopped-one) Muhammad Ali had more weapons and ways to beat great heavyweights than any other heavyweight champion in history. He was the fastest heavyweight ever of hand and foot, blessed with a cast iron chin and very underrated physical strength. Ali had the ability to endure a body shot as good or better than any heavyweight who has yet lived, coupled with never before seen recuperative powers. Ali was the master at psychological warfare and had an indomitable will to win. He could adjust and adapt to all different fighting styles. Ali used his strength to outmuscle the boxers,and his speedto outbox the swarmers and sluggers, and was as tough as could be. It must not go unmentioned that Ali fought and dominated during the best era in heavyweight history, despite being out of boxing the four best years of his physical prime. Unlike Louis, Ali was probably the most flawed heavyweight champion ever from a fundamental boxing standpoint. He just out sped his flaws and mistakes because of his great athletic ability. The one thing Ali lacked was one punch knockout power that some believe a dominant heavyweight champion should possess <span>2-Joe Louis</span>: (times knocked down-seven)(times stopped-two) Joe Louis is the most faultless fighter in boxing history. He is the textbook on boxing, did everything perfect and was light years ahead of his time. He had perfect form, wasted no punches and threw every punch perfectly with speed and accuracy. He had dynamite in both hands, applied subtle pressure to set his opponents up and was a great combination puncher who carried his punch throughout the fight. Louis also had an outstanding chin. Some say his chin was his weakness but they are wrong. History shows he was down seven times. But he was only stopped early in his career before reaching his peak by Max Schmeling, after Louis absorbed countless flush rights to his jaw; And don't be fooled, Schmeling had a stiff right hand. The other time Louis was stopped was when he was an empty package at the age of 37, fighting Rocky Marciano, one of history's greatest punchers. Other than these two fights, Louis was never close to being stopped. He was knocked down but jumped right back up, in what is known as a flash knockdown. The only kink in the armor of Joe Louis was that he was sometimes vulnerable to boxers with good foot movement. <span>3-George Foreman (</span>times knocked down-three) (times stopped-one) vs.... <u>Louis</u>: This fight comes down to styles. Louis and Foreman are the two most dangerous fighters in heavyweight history when the opponent goes to them, it's literally suicide. The fighter who advances toward the other in this fight loses. I see Louis drawing Foreman to him. This would set up Foreman to be hit and countered with Louis' cat-quick combinations. I see Louis being too precision and fundamentally sound for Big George. Foreman's power would be dangerous for Louis, and a Foreman knockout win would not be an upset or even a surprise to me, but I'd give the Brown Bomber the edge winning by a lopsided decision or a late stoppage if Foreman tired..........vs.... <u>Ali</u>: This fight we actually had the privilege of seeing. Ali's overall speed and experience provided him a huge advantage. However, what really tilted the fight in Ali's favor was his overall physical strength and cast iron chin, which enabled him to stand up to Foreman's fierce assault. Foreman is made for Ali! <span>4-Sonny Liston (</span>times knocked down-two) (times stopped-3) vs.... <u>Louis</u>: This is a real intriguing fight. In the late '50s and early '60s, some historians felt Liston was even greater than Louis. Liston's jab would've been troublesome for Joe, however the difference in this fight would be the overall hand speed of Louis. Louis would be able to get his punches off first and faster, and Louis was a much better combination puncher than Liston. I seeLouis winning a comfortable decision. As with Foreman, Liston's power would make him dangerous throughout the fight and a Liston knockout victory can't be considered an upset..........vs.... <u>Ali</u>: Again like with Foreman we saw Ali-Liston, though it wasn't a prime Liston. Ali just has too many weapons along with size, speed, strength, and chin to be defeated by Liston. Like Foreman, Liston is made for Ali. <span>5-Joe Frazier (</span>times knocked down-10) (times stopped-three) vs.... <u>Louis</u>: Frazier is tailor made for Louis. Frazier's aggressive attacking style would play into exactly what Louis<span> </span>would've wanted Frazier to do. Louis would catch Frazier clean as he was coming into him. By Frazier coming in, the punch would land with even more impact. Also, Frazier was sometimes vulnerable to being hit with the straight right hand. Louis' right hand was snake like quick with the explosiveness of a stick of dynamite. I see Louis stopping Frazier. If Frazier could make it to the last third of the fight, he may have a shot with his pressure possibly getting to Louis, but I can't see Frazier making it that far..........vs.... <u>Ali</u>: This match-up we saw three times, and we can't thank the Boxing-Gods enough for allowing us the gift of witnessing all three fights! <span>6-Rocky Marciano</span> (times knocked down-two)(times stopped-0) vs.... <u>Louis</u>: Yes we saw this but, Louis was shot and 37-years-old. In their prime, I see this fight close to how I see Louis vs.... Frazier. Marciano, like Frazier, applies constant pressure, which is instant death against Louis. Louis would land smashing right hands and devastating right uppercuts to Rocky's head. Marciano is more prone to cuts than Frazier is, but since he doesn't apply quite as much pressure as Frazier, he may last a little longer. I think Louis would decision Marciano or possibly cut him leading to a possible stoppage. Again, like with Frazier, if Rocky is around in the last third of the fight he could stop Louis. However I do see Marciano having a better chance to upset Louis than Frazier.........vs.... <u>Ali</u>: Forget the computer garbage; The computer had Marciano winning in the United States, and Ali winning in Europe. I see Ali-Marciano similar to Ali-Frazier. However, I don't believe Marciano would've been quite as tough on Ali as Frazier was. Marciano didn't cut the ring off as well as Joe, and Frazier had faster hands than Rocky on the inside where Marciano would have to try and force the fight. I think Frazier had a little better head movement then Rocky and was harder to hit as well, which benefits Ali. I see Ali winning a more one sided decision over Rocky than he did Joe, unless he cuts him. <span>7-Larry Holmes (</span>times knocked down-six) (times stopped-one) vs.... <u>Louis</u>: I see Holmes doing well vs.... Louis in the early going due to his great left jab. Holmes would make Louis work to get close, however the longer the fight goes I see Louis getting to Holmes and scoring with his short straight right hands inside of Holmes' jab. Once Holmes starts to slow, Louis would be deadly with his body punching against a Holmes whose legs are starting to get heavy. Louis would start landing his explosive right hand and left hooks more regularly, eventually wearing Holmes down and winning a clear-cut decision............vs.... <u>Ali</u>: Unfortunately we saw this fight, only it was a thoroughly shot Ali two months shy of his 39th birthday, facing Holmes at his peak. As anticipated, if both were in their prime, I believe this fight would be painful on the eyes to watch. The problem is, both guys depend on their jab to set up everything they do, and both guys hated to be jabbed at, (see Ali vs.... Jones,Bugner andYoung -- see Holmes vs.... Witherspoon, Williams and M. Spinks). Another factor in this match-up would be, which fighter could get the other fighter to assume the aggressors role. Since both guys like to have their opponent come to them, thefighter who is the aggressor is at a disadvantage in this match up. This fight will definitely go the distance because both Ali and Holmes have great chins, and neither have a big enough punch to knock the other out. I see Ali getting Holmes to be the aggressor and having the advantage, along with Ali being a little faster and stronger and having greater stamina. I see him winning a very boring and ugly decision. 8-Evander Holyfield (times knocked down-four)(times stopped-one) vs.... <u>Louis</u>: The problem for Holyfield in this match-up with Louis is his heart is too big. Holyfield would be only too willing to engage Louis and trade with him. Louis would apply enough pressure on Holyfield so that he would be forced to try and fight back. Holyfield doesn't have the boxing skill or punch to discourage Louis from coming at him. Once this fight becomes a toe-to-toe slugfest, the "Real Deal" would be stopped. I don't see any scenario in which Holyfield beats Louis......... ........ vs.... <u>Ali</u>: This is another match-up that Holyfield has nothing to win with. He can't outbox or out speed Ali , and he's not a big enough puncher to bother him or wear him down. I see Ali circling and boxing Holyfield, being able to pick his spots to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. Ali wins every time, most likely by a decision. <span>9-Lennox Lewis</span> (times knocked down-two) (times stopped-two) vs.... <u>Louis:</u> I see Lennox's jab keeping Joe at bay for a short time like Holmes, but again, Joe is too fast and sharp a puncher not to get inside and hit Lennox on his chin. Once Joe is inside, he'd start working on Lennox's body with short crisp left hooks. Once Louis is on the inside, the fight ends. Lennox is such a huge target I can't see him eluding the Louis assault, and no way he stands up to Joe's power. Maybe early onLewis might catch Joe, but I doubt he'd fight aggressively enough facing a fighter with the two handed power of the Brown Bomber, Louis stops Lewis...........vs.... <u>Ali</u>: I don't see Lennox presenting many problems for Ali. Lewis is too big, too cautious and slow to bother Ali, and Lennox is too big a target for Ali to miss. Ali could pick his spots to go in and out whenever he chose to. I see Ali taking Lewis to school, giving him a thorough boxing lesson. The only thing Ali would even have to think about is not running into a Lewis right hand. Even at that, I can't see Lewis' right hand being as dangerous as the left-hook of Frazier or any power punch that Foreman, Liston, or Shavers landed on Ali. Ali wins by lopsided decision. <span>10-Mike Tyson (</span>times knocked down-four) (times stopped-four) vs.... <u>Louis</u>: I see Louis getting inside of Tyson's looping right hand and left hook. Tyson has fast hands, but Louis' were also fast, and since Joe throws straight punches, he would beat Tyson to the mark. Once Louis has landed a couple short explosive right hands on Tyson, Tyson would lose his will and confidence, and attempt to try to land one big punch to get Joe out. Once this fails, Tyson will go through the motions ashe did with Lennox Lewis until Joe knocks him out. Tyson, like Foreman, Liston, Marciano and Frazier could always get lucky but I don't see it. Louis is too hard a puncher and refined fighter to lose to Tyson............vs.... <u>Ali</u>: Again, I see this playing out like Ali vs... Frazier and Marciano only not as tough for Ali. Tyson doesn't put as much pressure on as Frazier and he's easier to hit. He doesn't take a punch as good as Frazier or Marciano and he's nowhere near as tough as either of them. He has faster hands than either Frazier or Marciano, but against Ali, he still will be out sped. As far as punch goes, Tyson's hook isn't as good as Frazier's, but his right is better. Tyson has a better hook than Marciano, but his right isn't as good. Another big difference here is that Marciano and Frazier got stronger as the fight progressed, where Tyson is at his best in the first couple of rounds. After the third round, he slows down and he doesn't quite carry his punch throughout the fight like Rocky or Joe. To beat Ali, he'd have to get lucky early in the first or second round. Ali defeated better punchers than Tyson and definitely tougher fighters than Tyson. Ali stops Tyson! <span>Writers Note</span> The above ranking is my personal opinion of who I think the ten best heavyweight champions are from Joe Louis of 1937 up to Lennox Lewis of May 2003. Remember, to me, head-to-head confrontation means a lot. What determines who is the better fighter? Why is Liston better than Patterson? Patterson is the better technician, more fundamentally sound and was a two-time champion. Patterson also made six defenses of the title compared to one for Liston. However, in a head-to-head meeting, Liston's overall physical strength overwhelms Patterson's skill. So, Liston has to be ranked above Patterson since he defeated him twice. Same with Frazier and Foreman. Frazier made ten title defenses and Foreman made two (Foreman's comeback doesn't come into focus to me, because he wasn't at his best during his comeback. I compare prime vs.... prime). Frazier was a better overall fighter than Foreman and was even a better champion. However, like Patterson with Liston, Frazier was beaten by Foreman's strength and punch. Foreman must be rated above Frazier. I'm sure my rankings of Frazier, Marciano, and Tyson will cause the most outrage, especially with the fight fans 35 or younger. However, I saw prime Frazier and Tyson, and have all of Marciano's major fights on tape. I have also spoken with some of the trainers and fighters from Rocky's era including Jersey Joe Walcott. So, I'm confident that I have a realistic grasp of his greatness. Some fans dismiss Marciano because they think he was too small at 185-190. What's not widely known is that he walked the street way above 200 in his prime and almost 250 when he retired--and he wasn't a slob, he was solid. His weight came down so low because of how hard and long he trained for his fights. Frazier and Marciano: I constantly go back and forth with regarding who should be ranked over who. I have no problem with anyone who thinks Rocky could have defeated Joe, or ranks him above him.

 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
Thanks, Infuzer. I wish this post had been here back when the boxing threads were at their peak. I agree with most of what this guy says, including his intro on how he doesn't feel comfortable ranking boxers before Louis.

I might put Lennox Lewis a bit higher than this writer. His analysis is very well thought out overall.

There's a lot for Javaman to chew on there, when he gets the time.
 

El Duque

Bench
Messages
3,845
Holyfield's been down 5 times.

Once v Bert Cooper
Once by Bowe in their 1st fight.
Twice by Bowe in their 3rd fight
Once by John Ruiz
 
V

Vertigo

Guest
Thanks for that valuable post Infuzer. Excellent!
I've always been a fan of George Foreman, but one of you correct me if I'm wrong here; Every time I hear the name George Foreman mentioned among the best heavyweights of all time, it always seems to be for one of three things/reasons:
1. His memorable fight/loss to Ali (Rumble In The Jungle)
2. His demolition job of Frazier
3. His big punching ability
My question is, why is it that I very rarely hear about his boxing "abilities" on a wider scale. What I mean is if you compare him to the other greats of the past and present (Ali, Louis, Holyfiled, Marciano etc...), you rarely hear people make mention of his boxing "skills" or his ability to "box" rather than to throw that big punch.
Did Foreman actually have the boxing"flare" and "skill" of say an Ali or Loius, or was he just a big man with an equally big punch? Does Frazier also fit into the same catagory as Foreman?
I've seen both this guys fight on only a few ocassions, and I really don't remember either one (especially George Foreman) possessing overall boxing aptitude and/or craftsmanship of some other great heavyweights.
Am I being a little harsh as I've not seen enough of Foreman to make an accurate and impartial judgement ... or am I calling a-spade a-spade?
V.
 
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