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John Morris - 2022 coaching alternative

Mario chalmers

Juniors
Messages
578
Putting aside the fact its 10 straight years with no finals, my focus is limited to where we are at right now and what I think we need to do to steady a ship that has gone way off course. There are two key points that I think most fans would agree on:

1. There are some very impressive young players coming through at WT;
2. The club currently has a smell to it externally to the point that recruitment is a MAJOR challenge.

WT inability to recruit high-profile experienced NRL players right now creates a risk that the promising young players leave us in time. This is the main reason why I think other coaching options need to be considered this summer.

The reason why Madge cannot sign players may be because he has a reputation as a tough task master. More so, its my view that Madge can't sign players because he doesnt have a prominent player manager to help him with recruitment. Mainstream media don't ever raise this important point.

By comparison, Ivan Cleary joined the club in 2017 and immediately brought on Reynolds, Matulino and Packer. All 3 players were managed by George Mimis at the time and it's no coincidence that so was Ivan. Maguire doesnt have that luxury. It looks like he may be getting chummy with Sam Ayoub given we have signed Hastings and Gildart (who are both Ayoub clients). Still, the smell that is lingering around the club won't go until Madge does.

Turning to Morris
Here is a report around the time he was appointed head coach of Cronulla in 2019
He has a Masters in Coaching (doesnt necessarily translate to him being a good coach I know)
12 of the 20 players he coached in the Cronulla under 20's side went on to the NRL
The Sharks were playing $350k under the cap for season '19 and '20 and were knees deep in drug /salary cap scandals at that time.

Over the next 2 years
Cronulla made the finals in both 2019 (7th) and 2020 (8th) but were eliminated in week 1 of the finals both years.
Morris handed 11 players their debut during that period.
Do you ever here Tigers players wrap Madge in the way Johnson does?

Importantly Morris is managed by the Orr brothers

Here are their stable of players

I'm not saying Morris is extremely well credentialled. I think there are very few coaches available which could be Madge's saving grace. Morris has worked with Sheens before as well which is a tick for him. If Madge is given 6 rounds to put up or shut up in 2022 what players is he going to bring in before then? This is a HUGE issue.

If Madge does not see out his contract then I think he will live to regret not signing senior players to lead our promising juniors. his signings with at least 100+ NRL games experience have all been abject failures. BJ Leilua, James Roberts & Joe Ofahengaue are prime examples. We have a shitload of cap space and somewhere between 4-6 roster spots. I have no faith in Madge to recruit anyone to lead us next season and this is why I think he should get a tap on the shoulder in a fortnight's time.

Fans need hope. We have no reason to hope as long as Madge is at the club. He has had 3 years to get things right.
 

Shredder

Juniors
Messages
1,345
I might be wrong, but wasn't Morris punted specifically because he couldn't attract big name players?

I admit I might have this wrong.
 

Ron's_Mate

Bench
Messages
3,750
People keep blaming the head coach for signings, when recruitment is mostly done as a team exercise. It's simple to say "flick the coach" but what about the others who played a role is signing those duds while missing out on good players?
 

Tigerm

Bench
Messages
4,656
Putting aside the fact its 10 straight years with no finals, my focus is limited to where we are at right now and what I think we need to do to steady a ship that has gone way off course. There are two key points that I think most fans would agree on:

1. There are some very impressive young players coming through at WT;
2. The club currently has a smell to it externally to the point that recruitment is a MAJOR challenge.

WT inability to recruit high-profile experienced NRL players right now creates a risk that the promising young players leave us in time. This is the main reason why I think other coaching options need to be considered this summer.

The reason why Madge cannot sign players may be because he has a reputation as a tough task master. More so, its my view that Madge can't sign players because he doesnt have a prominent player manager to help him with recruitment. Mainstream media don't ever raise this important point.

By comparison, Ivan Cleary joined the club in 2017 and immediately brought on Reynolds, Matulino and Packer. All 3 players were managed by George Mimis at the time and it's no coincidence that so was Ivan. Maguire doesnt have that luxury. It looks like he may be getting chummy with Sam Ayoub given we have signed Hastings and Gildart (who are both Ayoub clients). Still, the smell that is lingering around the club won't go until Madge does.

Turning to Morris
Here is a report around the time he was appointed head coach of Cronulla in 2019
He has a Masters in Coaching (doesnt necessarily translate to him being a good coach I know)
12 of the 20 players he coached in the Cronulla under 20's side went on to the NRL
The Sharks were playing $350k under the cap for season '19 and '20 and were knees deep in drug /salary cap scandals at that time.

Over the next 2 years
Cronulla made the finals in both 2019 (7th) and 2020 (8th) but were eliminated in week 1 of the finals both years.
Morris handed 11 players their debut during that period.
Do you ever here Tigers players wrap Madge in the way Johnson does?

Importantly Morris is managed by the Orr brothers

Here are their stable of players

I'm not saying Morris is extremely well credentialled. I think there are very few coaches available which could be Madge's saving grace. Morris has worked with Sheens before as well which is a tick for him. If Madge is given 6 rounds to put up or shut up in 2022 what players is he going to bring in before then? This is a HUGE issue.

If Madge does not see out his contract then I think he will live to regret not signing senior players to lead our promising juniors. his signings with at least 100+ NRL games experience have all been abject failures. BJ Leilua, James Roberts & Joe Ofahengaue are prime examples. We have a shitload of cap space and somewhere between 4-6 roster spots. I have no faith in Madge to recruit anyone to lead us next season and this is why I think he should get a tap on the shoulder in a fortnight's time.

Fans need hope. We have no reason to hope as long as Madge is at the club. He has had 3 years to get things right.
Yeah, nah.

3 years? How many would you give the next coach and he one after? We would only continue the problem?

The club certainly has a problem, but I think the players need to have a good look at themselves before we let them sack another coach?
 

Mario chalmers

Juniors
Messages
578
Yeah, nah.

3 years? How many would you give the next coach and he one after? We would only continue the problem?

The club certainly has a problem, but I think the players need to have a good look at themselves before we let them sack another coach?
What is your take on Madge not being able to sign anyone? is that a real problem or is it just the media stirring the pot?
 

Mario chalmers

Juniors
Messages
578
People keep blaming the head coach for signings, when recruitment is mostly done as a team exercise. It's simple to say "flick the coach" but what about the others who played a role is signing those duds while missing out on good players?
when players sign for a club do they say 'I really wanted to join club X because the CEO /Football Manager / Chairperson is such a good bloke?

The buck stops with Madge IMO.

That said I don't have a lot of time for Pascoe either and think he should be moved on also.
 

Fordy20

Juniors
Messages
1,751
If he was bringing Kennedy, Tracey, Rudolph and Talakai with him, then it would be no brainer. But all those blokes re-signed with the Sharks, just as Brailey, Nikora, Hamlin-Uele and Hunt will next year.
 

Ron's_Mate

Bench
Messages
3,750
when players sign for a club do they say 'I really wanted to join club X because the CEO /Football Manager / Chairperson is such a good bloke?

The buck stops with Madge IMO.

That said I don't have a lot of time for Pascoe either and think he should be moved on also.
Good players will sign with a club they see going places, or one that is paying overs (e.g. Doggies). I think the big problem with the Tigers is the lack of one territory/home ground. Imagine signing with a club where you train at Concord & play out of Homebush, Campbelltown & Leichhardt. Compare that with all the top teams who are centralised in their operations and identity.
I think the main role of the head coach is getting the players up for the game & there is a lot of psychology in that. If I'm going to criticise Madge for anything it would be that, because he obviously can't motivate this bunch to play to his gameplan. I reckon he does too much shouting, swearing, ranting and raving, like an old school Sergeant Major, and the players of today don't respond to that. They respond to someone like a Bennett who works with them on their self development.
I don't even know why I'm bothering to type this, because I've given up caring.
 

Tigerm

Bench
Messages
4,656
What is your take on Madge not being able to sign anyone? is that a real problem or is it just the media stirring the pot?
I think it’s our inability to get into the top 8. ATM, we are not a destination club, but everything points to the club being a success, just need the FG team to do there bit, which has taken longer than we all had hoped.

John Morris doesn’t give me hope he’s the answer to our problems?

It’s interesting that there is not a lot of talent around and the the NRL seem to want to expand the comp?

I believe the clubs plan to go back to developing juniors is there answer to the lack of talent which will only get worse if the expansion happens?

Its a long game approach, hopefully it will work, it did for Penrith?
 

gordsy

Juniors
Messages
1,580
You could have Bellamy coaching us and these pea heart would still play like shit. We will never succeed until we change our culture and core player group. Until we fix that the rest is lipstick on a pig and trying to polish turds.
 
Messages
8,525
Putting aside the fact its 10 straight years with no finals, my focus is limited to where we are at right now and what I think we need to do to steady a ship that has gone way off course. There are two key points that I think most fans would agree on:

1. There are some very impressive young players coming through at WT;
2. The club currently has a smell to it externally to the point that recruitment is a MAJOR challenge.

WT inability to recruit high-profile experienced NRL players right now creates a risk that the promising young players leave us in time. This is the main reason why I think other coaching options need to be considered this summer.

The reason why Madge cannot sign players may be because he has a reputation as a tough task master. More so, its my view that Madge can't sign players because he doesnt have a prominent player manager to help him with recruitment. Mainstream media don't ever raise this important point.

By comparison, Ivan Cleary joined the club in 2017 and immediately brought on Reynolds, Matulino and Packer. All 3 players were managed by George Mimis at the time and it's no coincidence that so was Ivan. Maguire doesnt have that luxury. It looks like he may be getting chummy with Sam Ayoub given we have signed Hastings and Gildart (who are both Ayoub clients). Still, the smell that is lingering around the club won't go until Madge does.

Turning to Morris
Here is a report around the time he was appointed head coach of Cronulla in 2019
He has a Masters in Coaching (doesnt necessarily translate to him being a good coach I know)
12 of the 20 players he coached in the Cronulla under 20's side went on to the NRL
The Sharks were playing $350k under the cap for season '19 and '20 and were knees deep in drug /salary cap scandals at that time.

Over the next 2 years
Cronulla made the finals in both 2019 (7th) and 2020 (8th) but were eliminated in week 1 of the finals both years.
Morris handed 11 players their debut during that period.
Do you ever here Tigers players wrap Madge in the way Johnson does?

Importantly Morris is managed by the Orr brothers

Here are their stable of players

I'm not saying Morris is extremely well credentialled. I think there are very few coaches available which could be Madge's saving grace. Morris has worked with Sheens before as well which is a tick for him. If Madge is given 6 rounds to put up or shut up in 2022 what players is he going to bring in before then? This is a HUGE issue.

If Madge does not see out his contract then I think he will live to regret not signing senior players to lead our promising juniors. his signings with at least 100+ NRL games experience have all been abject failures. BJ Leilua, James Roberts & Joe Ofahengaue are prime examples. We have a shitload of cap space and somewhere between 4-6 roster spots. I have no faith in Madge to recruit anyone to lead us next season and this is why I think he should get a tap on the shoulder in a fortnight's time.

Fans need hope. We have no reason to hope as long as Madge is at the club. He has had 3 years to get things right.
I don’t agree with all your points, but that’s an almighty effort and I f**king appreciate it.

Morris has genuine claims, he has to be on the interview short list, if and when Madge is decommissioned absolutely. Well done MC.
 
Last edited:

Vozzy

Juniors
Messages
1,663
This year's results are a combination of a poorly run club going all the way back to probably the start of Jason Taylor. He punted a club legend who bleeds Wests Tigers, then our management/CEO/recruitment had Woods/Tedasco/Moses/Brooks all come off contract at the same time and had had 3 coaches in the space of 4 years. These 4 were who we needed to build a dynasty around but we stuffed it, not long after we let go of Addo-Carr and Papenhauzen, then Ivan came and blew our salary cap on Packer, Mbye, Brooks, Reynolds, Matalino plus McQueen. All this has resulted in big names turning us away making whoever came next as coach probably a 5-6 year task of rebuilding a club where the only option is to rebuild from junior pathways. We are now the youngest team in the competition but yes Madge is accountable but at least he is putting his heart and soul to try and turn it around while others pissed off when it gets tough. Madge may not be the answer but the next coach won't be fixing our problems by next year either.

I know some things here are not particularly in the same order or for example McQueen being a Taylor signing but it was still $450k sitting in reserve grade.
 

stryker

Bench
Messages
4,375
People keep blaming the head coach for signings, when recruitment is mostly done as a team exercise. It's simple to say "flick the coach" but what about the others who played a role is signing those duds while missing out on good players?
They have to go as well, preferrably with busted jaws…
 

stryker

Bench
Messages
4,375
Good players will sign with a club they see going places, or one that is paying overs (e.g. Doggies). I think the big problem with the Tigers is the lack of one territory/home ground. Imagine signing with a club where you train at Concord & play out of Homebush, Campbelltown & Leichhardt. Compare that with all the top teams who are centralised in their operations and identity.
I think the main role of the head coach is getting the players up for the game & there is a lot of psychology in that. If I'm going to criticise Madge for anything it would be that, because he obviously can't motivate this bunch to play to his gameplan. I reckon he does too much shouting, swearing, ranting and raving, like an old school Sergeant Major, and the players of today don't respond to that. They respond to someone like a Bennett who works with them on their self development.
I don't even know why I'm bothering to type this, because I've given up caring.
🤣 I know the feeling.
 
Messages
8,525
.......I think the main role of the head coach is getting the players up for the game & there is a lot of psychology in that. If I'm going to criticise Madge for anything it would be that, because he obviously can't motivate this bunch to play to his gameplan......
Which is why if he stays, he needs the support to help him connect.

His whole approach to his players needs to be examined.

I feel for him, but we have to perform and 6 improved players out of 30 isn’t cutting it.

The concern is that he finally gets his Marquees and then they don’t connect.

So I’d give him one more off season with help and then to round 6 next season. And I would need to see the individual growth he champions by then, even if we are lower on the table.

And I’d tell him to halve or reduce his off season physicals and use the time to engage the players mentally with professional help.
 

Mario chalmers

Juniors
Messages
578
Which is why if he stays, he needs the support to help him connect.

His whole approach to his players needs to be examined.

I feel for him, but we have to perform and 6 improved players out of 30 isn’t cutting it.

The concern is that he finally gets his Marquees and then they don’t connect.

So I’d give him one more off season with help and then to round 6 next season. And I would need to see the individual growth he champions by then, even if we are lower on the table.

And I’d tell him to halve or reduce his off season physicals and use the time to engage the players mentally with professional help.
But lets break down the 'give him six rounds next year" proposal

1. Madge gets to use our cap space on 3-4 cast offs from other clubs. These players will be trumpted as 'name signings' when the reality is there next stop was Super League if not for WT
2. We get more of the same next season in the first 6 rounds
3. Madge gets tapped
4. Cast offs who signed for the club between now and next April are upset because they signed to play under Madge.

At least if a clean break is made now then the new coach has some ownership over next years roster. That doesn't happen if Madge has 6 more weeks next year
 

Tigerm

Bench
Messages
4,656
But lets break down the 'give him six rounds next year" proposal

1. Madge gets to use our cap space on 3-4 cast offs from other clubs. These players will be trumpted as 'name signings' when the reality is there next stop was Super League if not for WT
2. We get more of the same next season in the first 6 rounds
3. Madge gets tapped
4. Cast offs who signed for the club between now and next April are upset because they signed to play under Madge.

At least if a clean break is made now then the new coach has some ownership over next years roster. That doesn't happen if Madge has 6 more weeks next year
Sorry Mario, but Madge isn't going anywhere soon, as far as I know, unless you have some inside scoop?

You really need to look up what Madge's role in recruitment is these days? Look up what Adam Hartigan's does?

Elite players are few and far between atm, our valuing of players policy doesn't help us, but we have been down that path with absolutely no success for the last 10 years, other clubs have the similar issues, e.g. Titans, have $1m tied up with Ash Taylor, even Fifita ($1.25m) doesn't start these days?
 

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