Klemmer?

[The Damo]

I find it staggering, amazing, incomprehensible, unbelievable and unfathomable that a highly trained player cannot play 55 minutes every 7 days, without becoming burnt out.

45 - 65 minutes a week causes burn out and fatigue?

Remember guys Ike Ray Price, Rocket Rod, and many many more, you can't tell me they didn't play at a thousand miles an hour and they were bashed every week... but I never saw them burn out, become tired.

Fair dinkum, what have we created? Mummies boys?

Yep, the whole burnout argument remains way overblown. Last year I posted the minutes, hit ups, total games including rep games, and tackles of our forwards compared to other teams and guess what? They were all very similar! No one could explain why our forwards minutes and hit ups were somehow magically more exhausting than others, it was just “something something power game something, players busted something” It’s almost like that’s what first grade forwards do - play every week, play through injuries whenever they can. There’s plenty of criticisms to make of Mary, but this one is largely rubbish, and easily proved if it wasn’t.

 

[ouryears]

Yep, the whole burnout argument remains way overblown. Last year I posted the minutes, hit ups, total games including rep games, and tackles of our forwards compared to other teams and guess what? They were all very similar! No one could explain why our forwards minutes and hit ups were somehow magically more exhausting than others, it was just “something something power game something, players busted something” It’s almost like that’s what first grade forwards do - play every week, play through injuries whenever they can. There’s plenty of criticisms to make of Mary, but this one is largely rubbish, and easily proved if it wasn’t.

Thanks for your info mate.
Well done!

 

[The Damo]

So quick stats follow up - across the league.
Minutes played by forwards this year;
We have just 4 players in the top 60!
Cam, Sims, Frizz and Jack
Runs by forwards this year
1 top 10, Vaughan 8th behind Fifita, Klemmer, tapau, woods
Then 4 more between 20th and 40th, Sims, graham, Frizz and Jack.
Tackles
1 in top 20 - Cam
Then Jack at 37th
And Frizz around 50th.

I don’t think Mary uses the bench well, don’t get me wrong. But if he were actually running players into the ground it would absolutely show up in the stats. And it just doesn’t.

 

[dragonssamy61]

It's all to do with use of the bench and lack of faith in the young guys coming though.
Theses are our 2 weekest areas.
Fix this a we can win the whole show

 

[Overseas dragon]

So it looks like Ah Mau is off to the Warriors. I would not be looking for a bench player to replace hm. For me it is a prop rotation of:
Vaughan
New top grade prop - maybe Klemmer
Graham
Haas

Gone are:
Ah Mau
Latimore
Allgood

latimore do you want to get rid of him CRUSH.and his salary .wouldn't be very high I would suggest can't think of one reason .

 

[Gareth67]

Just read today's Tele. Apparently the doggies cap is such a mess that the silly beggars will not be able to sign any true quality players until 2021 . I do not blame only Mr. Hasler for this mess , but also their board who gave him full rein to buy high priced players on back ended deals - fools , everyone has to pay up eventually .

 

[ouryears]

It's all to do with use of the bench and lack of faith in the young guys coming though.
Theses are our 2 weekest areas.
Fix this a we can win the whole show

But mate, if he hasn't done such a simple thing by now, me thinks he never will!

 

[Life's Good]

Just read today's Tele. Apparently the doggies cap is such a mess that the silly beggars will not be able to sign any true quality players until 2021 . I do not blame only Mr. Hasler for this mess , but also their board who gave him full rein to buy high priced players on back ended deals - fools , everyone has to pay up eventually .

And how good is it? Grubs in trouble for a few more years is music to my ears.

 

[Gareth67]

And how good is it? Grubs in trouble for a few more years is music to my ears.

Awh come on mate , that doesn't sound like you . Never kick a man when his down - unless it's a bluudy doggie .

 

[Life's Good]

Awh come on mate , that doesn't sound like you . Never kick a man when his down - unless it's a bluudy doggie .

85gf, 95sf, 98sf, 15sf. What have I missed? Mind you they are paying a big chunk of Graham’s salary.
Still, they can get f*cked.

 

[dragonssamy61]

And how good is it? Grubs in trouble for a few more years is music to my ears.

And long may they suffer

 

[True_Believer]

So quick stats follow up - across the league.
Minutes played by forwards this year;
We have just 4 players in the top 60!
Cam, Sims, Frizz and Jack
Runs by forwards this year
1 top 10, Vaughan 8th behind Fifita, Klemmer, tapau, woods
Then 4 more between 20th and 40th, Sims, graham, Frizz and Jack.
Tackles
1 in top 20 - Cam
Then Jack at 37th
And Frizz around 50th.

I don’t think Mary uses the bench well, don’t get me wrong. But if he were actually running players into the ground it would absolutely show up in the stats. And it just doesn’t.

So what you are saying, if I'm reading this right, is that irrespective of whether Mary continues with the bench the way it is, or changes it, there's no reason for the forwards to be burnt out? Even with the fact we are using only 16 players, our forwards are far from performing excessive minutes on the field?

 

[The Damo]

So what you are saying, if I'm reading this right, is that irrespective of whether Mary continues with the bench the way it is, or changes it, there's no reason for the forwards to be burnt out? Even with the fact we are using only 16 players, our forwards are far from performing excessive minutes on the field?

Mostly yes - my points are;
If the burnout argument were true it would show up as excessive minutes/runs/tackles.
These are objective and easily measured.
Our forwards are not being made to perform excessive minutes/runs/tackles - they are playing what is reasonably expected of average to high level first grade forwards.
So for the burnout argument to be true means that either our team is magically getting more wear and tear from the same efforts as other teams, that our forwards are less durable/fit than others, or that all teams will have the same problem.
I don’t think any of those are true.

The conclusion from this is-
Marys use of the bench is not optimal, but the problems are tactical within games, or building experience within younger players - not that it’s requiring excessive work from our pack.

I’d happily change my mind on this - but someone should point out which players are playing too much - and how it’s significantly greater than other players in the league in their position. There are plenty of hookers and second rowers playing 80 minutes most weeks.
There’s plenty of props averaging 50-55.

 

[BennyV]

Mostly yes - my points are;
If the burnout argument were true it would show up as excessive minutes/runs/tackles.
These are objective and easily measured.
Our forwards are not being made to perform excessive minutes/runs/tackles - they are playing what is reasonably expected of average to high level first grade forwards.
So for the burnout argument to be true means that either our team is magically getting more wear and tear from the same efforts as other teams, that our forwards are less durable/fit than others, or that all teams will have the same problem.
I don’t think any of those are true.

The conclusion from this is-
Marys use of the bench is not optimal, but the problems are tactical within games, or building experience within younger players - not that it’s requiring excessive work from our pack.

I’d happily change my mind on this - but someone should point out which players are playing too much - and how it’s significantly greater than other players in the league in their position. There are plenty of hookers and second rowers playing 80 minutes most weeks.
There’s plenty of props averaging 50-55.

Alternately, our coaching staff and HPU could be pushing our players too much mid-week, resulting in higher levels of fatigue during games. Not likely, but it’s another possibility.

As I’ve said previously, the ‘burnout’ effect comes from persistence in playing injured players, inability to adapt to opposition countering our ‘power game’ and poor ability to adapt younger players to first grade.

 

[The Damo]

Alternately, our coaching staff and HPU could be pushing our players too much mid-week, resulting in higher levels of fatigue during games. Not likely, but it’s another possibility.

As I’ve said previously, the ‘burnout’ effect comes from persistence in playing injured players, inability to adapt to opposition countering our ‘power game’ and poor ability to adapt younger players to first grade.

Largely agree - could be overtraining but unlikely.
The playing injured one is possible, but I’m as yet unconvinced that it’s persistent. Jack last week was a bad mistake, no argument.
The arguments around Frizz and packer last year are not as clear cut as by the known evidence they weren’t injuries that respond any better to rest and are about pain management.
And on the other side the way Aitkens hamstring issues have been treated and managed looks pretty good.
The inability to adapt game plan and adapt young players is a problem for sure but that’s a different argument than “Mary burns out forwards”

 

[True_Believer]

Largely agree - could be overtraining but unlikely.
The playing injured one is possible, but I’m as yet unconvinced that it’s persistent. Jack last week was a bad mistake, no argument.
The arguments around Frizz and packer last year are not as clear cut as by the known evidence they weren’t injuries that respond any better to rest and are about pain management.
And on the other side the way Aitkens hamstring issues have been treated and managed looks pretty good.
The inability to adapt game plan and adapt young players is a problem for sure but that’s a different argument than “Mary burns out forwards”

I agree. Bench usage is more a tactical issue at the moment than anything else. Additionally you have the youngsters not getting much game time - but on the other hand you want your best players on the field as much as possible.

Also, the fact we have recently recorded a record for the same team starting every game for 11 rounds suggests a reasonable level of fitness and preparation. JDB and maybe Graham are questionable, but we don’t know the circumstances relating to them playing.

My thing is confidence. I don’t see burnout at all. Is see a team losing confidence and potentially playing themselves out of form.

I also noticed in the Canberra game that the refs were mostly calling us out in the tackles and not Canberra. It seems we don’t get afforded the time in the ruck that other teams do. That could be contributing to in game fatigue - but I don’t see it as “burnout”

 

[MilanDragon]

I was reading an article earlier today and Soward said we looked tired and seem to be hanging out for the bye.

I find it really odd as to why our guys should be ‘tired’ none of our front row are playing more minutes or have more workload than other teams in the comp. we are actually scoring more points than other teams and therefore have more ‘rest time’ during games too.

Unless it really is our training regime which yiu would think would ease off as the season goes on.

 

[Draginzaaar]

Jamie Ainscough used to hate us.

 

[possm]

Mostly yes - my points are;
If the burnout argument were true it would show up as excessive minutes/runs/tackles.
These are objective and easily measured.
Our forwards are not being made to perform excessive minutes/runs/tackles - they are playing what is reasonably expected of average to high level first grade forwards.
So for the burnout argument to be true means that either our team is magically getting more wear and tear from the same efforts as other teams, that our forwards are less durable/fit than others, or that all teams will have the same problem.
I don’t think any of those are true.

The conclusion from this is-
Marys use of the bench is not optimal, but the problems are tactical within games, or building experience within younger players - not that it’s requiring excessive work from our pack.

I’d happily change my mind on this - but someone should point out which players are playing too much - and how it’s significantly greater than other players in the league in their position. There are plenty of hookers and second rowers playing 80 minutes most weeks.
There’s plenty of props averaging 50-55.

During the off-season, our forwards were tuned to perform at a up-tempo and premium level from game 1 of the season. It is not the number of minutes, it is the intensity, speed and strength our forwards use in getting on top of the opposition pack.

In my opinion they would not be able to continuously do this week in week out for the full season. In time they will 'burn out' and come back to the field or even below the field because of fatigue. No of the stats measure fatigue, intensity or strength used. So the question should be asked, why do our players stop performing and stop being so dominant after do this for 8 or so rounds of the competition? I believe a good forward rotation plan would eliminate this problem however, so we have the roster to maintain dominance while some key players are resting?

 

[Gareth67]

During the off-season, our forwards were tuned to perform at a up-tempo and premium level from game 1 of the season. It is not the number of minutes, it is the intensity, speed and strength our forwards use in getting on top of the opposition pack.

In my opinion they would not be able to continuously do this week in week out for the full season. In time they will 'burn out' and come back to the field or even below the field because of fatigue. No of the stats measure fatigue, intensity or strength used. So the question should be asked, why do our players stop performing and stop being so dominant after do this for 8 or so rounds of the competition? I believe a good forward rotation plan would eliminate this problem however, so we have the roster to maintain dominance while some key players are resting?

Agree Possum , the team , more so the forward pack has been going at full pace since the beginning of the season and to me fatigue is starting to set in now , at least the last 2 weeks .

I have no idea where the Dragons will be after the SOO and Internaional commitments are over , more so the the players fitness levels . This reminds me a bit of season 2011 under Bennett when we were leading the comp. up to the Blues/Marroons matches and went downhill sharply after it was completed .