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Letter says Glebe were league's first club

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
No worries.

The NSWRL receipts aren't useful as the money wasn't paid to the NSWRL on the night each club was formed - it's just when the club secretary got around to paying the money by April 1st.

Giltinan's letter provides further support to the information, dates and reports in the newspapers.

I'm not sure this issue can ever be progressed any further short of someone finding a newspaper report that confirms the Newtown Minute Book date of Jan 8th, or a Council record of the Newtown Town Hall booking (which has been attempted, but nothing found).



Was it possible to form a NSWRL affiliation without having a meeting with formal minutes?

Was it possible to form a NSWRL affiliation without paying dues?

It would seem that one is optional and one is mandatory.
 

RL1908

Bench
Messages
2,717
Was it possible to form a NSWRL affiliation without having a meeting with formal minutes?

It was a remarkable time in Australian history - for just about every community task you could imagine, Australians would form a committee along properly run procedures and voting. For example, organising a farewell party for someone taking a holiday to England. They would elect a secretary, a chairman/president etc, and take minutes. They were far more democratic than we are today. Many meetings were reported in newspapers, and the minutes and newspaper report were practically identical.

To answer your question, it wasn't possible for anything to happen until the club had been formed - it was only at that point could a resolution be put forward proposing that the club affiliate with the NSWRL. They would also have to raise the affiliation fee from the members, and then resolve to pay it to the NSWRL.

You couldn't just rock up to JJ Gilitnan or Trumper and offer them the affiliation fee for a club that might later be formed.

It's also important to note that founding meetings were conducted by the NSWRL - they had to be - the club itself did not exist until the meeting was held and votes taken.

It is interesting to also note that this seems to suggest the NSWRL would have been responsible for the first minutes of each club. Indeed, no minutes for any other club from 1908 has ever been found - only Newtown. The first meetings in the Newtown book are all in the same hand-writing, suggesting they were all transcribed by someone into the Minute book at the same time, copied from other documents which recorded the minutes.

Was it possible to form a NSWRL affiliation without paying dues?

Yes - but the club could not play in the NSWRL premiership if it didn't pay the affiliation fee. St George formed a RL club on Feb 28 1908. But only two men signed up as members, and the affiliation fee was never paid to the NSWRL.

The NSWRL also provided in its first by-laws that a Sydney University club could join the NSWRL comp - but it didn't, and no attempt was made in 1908 to form a club. Uni eventually joined in 1920.
 

RL1908

Bench
Messages
2,717
Dear RL1908,

Were you involved in the George Green medal debacle?

Nope.

Nor was I involved in the Indigenous "Team of the Century", or the decision to inagurate the George Green Medal.

Whether Green was of Aboriginal descent or not, I don't know (see below). He was included in the Indigenous "Team of the Century" - what information the selection panel had on each player I don't know.

Again with this issue, I've put both cases on my website for everyone to reach their own conclusions...

First Indigenous Rugby League Footballers
http://www.RL1908.com/History/indigenous.htm

George Green has been included in the Indigenous "Team of the Century", and is described in the NRL's Reconciliation Action Plan (Feb 2008) as "George Green is recognised as the first Indigenous rugby league player".

In 1995, Professor Colin Tatz and a panel of sportspeople and historians selected 129 athletes for the inaugural "Aboriginal and Islander Sports Hall of Fame" - George Green was one of the athletes inducted, and is profiled in the Aboriginal Studies Press published book, Black Gold: The Aboriginal and Islander Sports Hall of Fame by Colin and Paul Tatz (2001).

On 8 November 2008 in The Sydney Morning Herald, Associate Professor Andrew Moore set out his contention that George Green was not of Aboriginal heritage:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national...1225561136019.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
 

mightybears

Bench
Messages
4,342
Nope.

Nor was I involved in the Indigenous "Team of the Century", or the decision to inagurate the George Green Medal.

Whether Green was of Aboriginal descent or not, I don't know (see below). He was included in the Indigenous "Team of the Century" - what information the selection panel had on each player I don't know.

Again with this issue, I've put both cases on my website for everyone to reach their own conclusions...

If you want a bit more Moore re "The Black Man from Grafton" [pp86-90]you can purchase "The Mighty Bears" from the below site:

http://www.northsydneybears.com.au/Bears Club/merchandise/merchandise.html
 

Bluebags1908

Juniors
Messages
1,258
An interesting e-mail doing the rounds on the Newtown vs Glebe topic and George Green and whether he was Aboriginal. And apparently this e-mail is also found on facebook - see below.


Subject: Newtown - Rugby Leagues First Club

Newtown – Rugby League’s First Club

On February 15th this year, an article appeared in the Sun Herald claiming that evidence had been uncovered supporting Glebe’s claim to being the first Rugby League club formed in Australia. The article, written by David Middleton report that Ian Heads, Sean Fagan and Geoff Armstrong, the so-called George Green Trio, had uncovered a letter written by J.J. Giltinan (one of the games founders) which ‘weights heavily in favour of the view that Glebe were first cab off the rank”.

Unfortunately as the George Green Trio are only too aware, the letter has been ‘cherry-picked’ from a large collection and only proves how desperate they are to restore tattered reputations.

Firstly, let’s not dispute that the letter does exist. The letter from J.J. Giltinan to Simon Boland (Brisbane RL) is one of many in the Harry Sunderland collection. But the authors of the article and close associate of the George Green Trio, David Middleton has totally mis-representated the letters true intention. The letter is very short – it is only half a page long and it’s obvious that Giltinan did not write to Boland specifically to tell him about the Glebe meeting. It appears that Giltinan is impatient, some might say worried, that he hasn’t heard from Boland. He starts the letter by saying “I am still waiting for your reply to my lst letter – would be pleased to hear from you at earliest date”. He finishes the letter by saying “trusting to hear from you “.

Giltinan did not white to Boland to tell him of the Glebe meeting. It was more of an ‘after thought’. It’s almost as thought he added it just for something to talk about. Before writing about the Glebe meeting he actually says “I have nothing new to tell you, only our movement is still going ahead”.

David Middleton’s article also implies that because there was no mention of a meeting at Newtown in Giltinan's letter – then the meeting must not have taken place. The letter, dated January 10th is one of the 21 letters and telegrams that J.J. Giltinan sent to Brisbane. One of the interesting characteristics of Giltinan's letters is that he doesn’t mention any of the clubs in his correspondence. It is not only Newtown that is not mentioned. There is no mention of South Sydney, North Sydney, Balmain, Easts or Western Suburbs. For some reasons, David Middleton, a close associate of the George Green Trio, does not mention this fact in his article.

For example, Giltinan wrote to Boland on January 25th 1908, a day after Eastern Suburbs was founded and 2 days after the formation of Balmain. But there is no mention of this in his letter. He wrote again on February 5th, a day after the formation of Western Suburbs and 2 days before a meeting at North Sydney. But again, there is no mention of this in his correspondence. Are the George Green Trio suggesting that these meetings didn’t take place either? Are the George Green Trio so desperate to repair shattered reputations that that they are prepared to re-write history? Could someone please save the history of Rugby League from the George Green Trio?!?

This latest article is just part of a continuing campaign of mis-information. It all started on January 6th last year – 2 days before Newtown celebrated it’s centenary when Philip Heads (any relation) boldly stated in the Sunday Telegraph that “in the option of everyone, bar the Newtown club itself, the Glebe club was formed first “ !! Don’t shove it too far down peoples throats Phillip !

In the Sun Herald on the same day, Daniel Lane, an associate of Ian Heads, backed up Glebe’s claims with reference to some bizarre theory involving Victor Trumper. Luckily for the George Green Trio, that fairytale was quickly abandoned. This was backed up when the NRL produced its guide to the Centenary Celebrations and for some reason listed Newtowns Centenary as taking place on January 9th

In this most recent article, Ian Heads with his tongue firmed planted in his cheek, proclaims that “it’s a lively healthy debate”. But as Ian Heads is aware, it’s not a healthy debate when you’re only hearing one side of the argument. At the bottom of the Middleton article is a picture of Newtown playing in last years State Cup, and the caption reads “Not the first”. It’s the sort of force fed mis-information that a totalitarian regime would be proud of.

In the Sydney Morning Herald last November Andrew Moore, History Professor at the University of Western Sydney, warned the NRL and ARL that it’s ‘historians’ had failed to investigate all the available documentation in researching the George Green Trio. The resulting fiasco saw a player of West Indian descent become an Aboriginal. They basically didn’t check the guys birth certificate with much embarrassment to the games administration and much mirth in historical circles. But, unfortunately the George Green Trio haven’t learnt from their mistakes.



Last year, the President of the Newtown RLFC, Barry Vinning repeatedly invited the George Green Trio to come and read Newtown’s book of minutes. All his invites were rejected. And what would they discover if they’d bothered to take up the invite? They would discover the original minutes from the first meeting dating 8th January 1908. They would also discover that at the next meeting, in February, these minutes were confirmed.

Having abandoned the Victor Trumper fairytale the George Green Trio now claim that these minutes must ‘have been written some months laters’. And in doing so, the wrong date has been printed. In other words, those present at the Newtown meetings were either a) all suffering from some sort of collective amnesia or b) their all bald faced liars.

Now if the George Green Trio wish to back-up their claims, they need to either:

a)produce medical certificates supporting the collective amnesia diagnosis, or
b)produce evidence that these men were repeating liars.

It should be noted that 2 of the games founding members, J.J. Giltinan and Henry Hoyle attend the meeting. Unbelievable, both the NRL and ARL seem unperturbed that the reputations of Giltinan and Hoyle are being tarnished by the claims of the George Green Trio.

One of the other characteristics of the minute book is that it contains actually quotes of statements that were made at the meetings. They actually wrote down some of the things that were said at the meeting. Now ask yourselves this questions – would you be able to remember something was said at a meeting 2 or 3 month ago? Does it sound logical to you ?

There’s something else that the George Green Trio will discover if they could be bothered to read the minute book and that’s the ink!! That’s right, the ink ! The minutes are written in black and blue ink. The George Green Trio want you to believe that someone sat down 2 or 3 months after the event, and wrote down the minutes using different coloured inks! Does it sound logical to you? Of course it isn’t logical?

In David Middleton’s article, Ian Heads proudly proclaims that “the next step in the debate (which club was first) is certainly Newtown’s”. Unfortunately for the George Green Trio, the next step in the debate is for them to do what any high school history student would do – and that is to research all the documentation that is available. I believe that Barry Vinnings offer is still open.

In the end, this is a really sad situation. Sad because the Newtown club is proud of its historical status and it does a lot to foster it’s history. It’s easy to see whey a lot of people are attracted to the club because of its history. Unfortunately, this ill-informed speculation could easily affect the clubs future.

It’s sad for the game of Rugby League and it’s supporters because for some reason, the George Green Trio, are the preferred ‘historians’ of the NRL and ARL !!! It is any wonder that the Centenary Year was such a disappointment!

Yours in Rugby League
Rob Corra
BA Hons. Hist. BA Pol. Sc.
 

RL1908

Bench
Messages
2,717
For what it's worth, I refute any assertion that I had any involvement whatsoever in the decision to name the rising Indigenous star award after George Green. The first I heard of the award, let alone who it was to be named in honour of, was when it was publically announced and awarded in September 2008. I was not invited to, and nor did I, participate in the determining and naming of the Indigenous Team of the Century in August 2008. I also made it clear in this early 2008 article that Green's bona fides were disputed: http://www.rl1908.com/History/indigenous.htm

My assessment of the Glebe/Newtown issue remains unchanged. However, I've always made the Newtown club's position known in anything I've written (for example http://www.rl1908.com/clubcomps/founding-clubs.htm ) and in the Centenary dvd documentary "A Century of Rugby League", where inclusion was made of a relevant interview with Newtown President, Barry Vining.

--sf--
 
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