Manly to leave NSW Cup

[Henson Park Hornets]

A shame to see Manly set to leave the NSW Cup. It's making the NSW CUp look more and more look like the JBC.

http://www.leaguehq.com.au/news/news/eagles-fly-to-queensland/2008/08/14/1218307123879.html

Sea Eagles spread wings to new Queensland Cup nest

Brad Walter | August 15, 2008

MANLY are set to withdraw the club's reserve grade team from the second-tier NSW Cup competition and send players not required for NRL duty to Queensland.
The Sea Eagles and the Bulldogs are the only NRL clubs with their own sides in the restructured cup this season but both are making alternative plans for next year.
The Bulldogs favour a joint venture with Sydney Bulls, who are based at The Crest sporting complex in Bass Hill and would be promoted from the third-tier Jim Beam Cup, possibly along with the St George Illawarra-aligned Shellharbour Marlins. But Manly intend to follow Canberra's lead and send players not in their top squad each week to play for the Sunshine Coast Sea Eagles, who were this week granted a three-year Queensland Cup licence.
"It's not because of any dissatisfaction with the NSW Cup but it's certainly a far better financial proposition for us to send four-to-eight players each week to play for the Sunshine Coast Sea Eagles and it also helps us spread our brand," Manly chief executive Grant Mayer said.
"We'll have someone working up there in coaching and development, but we're not abandoning our own nursery. Brookvale will always be our home, this is like a home away from home."
Sea Eagles co-owners Max Delmege and Scott Penn, who recently purchased the land Manly Leagues Club occupies, are also working on a project at Caloundra, where the new Queensland Cup team is based.
The decision to abandon the NSW Cup follows similar moves by the Raiders and Dragons this season, while Sydney Roosters (Newtown), Rabbitohs (Norths), Eels (Wentworthville), Panthers (Windsor), Sharks (Bardon Ridge) and Knights (Charlestown) have all formed joint ventures with other clubs.
NSWRL general manager Geoff Carr described the changes as part of a transition phase the game's lower tiers are in but was confident of fielding 12 teams in 2009.
"From discussions we've had with some of the clubs, we know that the Bulldogs and Sydney Bulls are looking at a joint venture, and St George Illawarra is in talks with Shellharbour about fielding a team in the VB Cup," he said.
"We've also been speaking with Auckland [Vulcans] this week and, while it is an expensive operation for them, they are keen to be involved again next season."

 

[Ram Man]

Its also a shame the Bulls are leaving the Jim Beam Cup. Im pretty sure they always had aspirations to get to the NSW Cup so good for them. But speaking from a JBC point of view, I would rather play and beat the best sides in JBC then win a weakened comp. And the comp would be weaker as they are pretty dominant every year.

 

[Roland]

Manly did that deal last November and i posted the newspaper article on the NSW Cup thread a few times but no response. We will have to wait and see what the impact is with the Bulldogs/Bulls if it happens but it could be that it will be like Wenty and Windsor with 2 grades. But that situation has destroyed Wenty at jim Beam level because a stack of players that would have been in Beam have had to play State Cup so Wenty can win that comp. So maybe a weak Bulls in Beam and a strong Bulls in State Cup.

 

[Ram Man]

Manly did that deal last November and i posted the newspaper article on the NSW Cup thread a few times but no response. We will have to wait and see what the impact is with the Bulldogs/Bulls if it happens but it could be that it will be like Wenty and Windsor with 2 grades. But that situation has destroyed Wenty at jim Beam level because a stack of players that would have been in Beam have had to play State Cup so Wenty can win that comp. So maybe a weak Bulls in Beam and a strong Bulls in State Cup.

Manly signed the deal last november but they never said they were dumping the NSW cup side did they??!! I really cant remember.

My thoughts exactly on the Bulls/Bulldogs arrangement in reference to Wenty.
Wenty were considerably weaker this year and it would be a shame to have a dominant and successful side like the Bulls go from Competition heavy weights and premiership favourites to not even making the Top 5.

There are pros and cons for both sides of the arguement. It would be good to see the Bulls players rewarded for their success over the last 5+ years by getting a NSW Cup gig, but not at the expense of a successful club.
The best option would maybe be just to brush the JBC and focus on NSW Cup like Newtown have done in the last year.

 

[baddog]

no real surprises there, all of that is pretty common knowledge. hopefully it will be good for the nsw cup as all the teams in it are now focussed on that comp as their top grade. with a strong mix of old and new clubs maybe we can get the nswrl to pull their finger out and promote our comp.

 

[Roland]

Manly signed the deal last november but they never said they were dumping the NSW cup side did they??!! I really cant remember.

My thoughts exactly on the Bulls/Bulldogs arrangement in reference to Wenty.
Wenty were considerably weaker this year and it would be a shame to have a dominant and successful side like the Bulls go from Competition heavy weights and premiership favourites to not even making the Top 5.

There are pros and cons for both sides of the arguement. It would be good to see the Bulls players rewarded for their success over the last 5+ years by getting a NSW Cup gig, but not at the expense of a successful club.
The best option would maybe be just to brush the JBC and focus on NSW Cup like Newtown have done in the last year.

Youre right, Ram Man, about manly not saying they would drop out of State Cup but the thing about the Canberra/Manly deals appears to be to save money which means no second tier squad.

You could only get rid of JBC if the other top sides went up to State Cup, otherwise they would have nowhere to play.

 

[Ram Man]

Youre right, Ram Man, about manly not saying they would drop out of State Cup but the thing about the Canberra/Manly deals appears to be to save money which means no second tier squad.

You could only get rid of JBC if the other top sides went up to State Cup, otherwise they would have nowhere to play.

I mean just the Bulls brush the JBC not cancel the JBC altogether. Like Newtown did after the 2006 season, dropped their JBC to concentrate on their NSW Cup side.

Not only are they doing it to save money but the QLD cup is becoming a better comp than NSW Cup. I can vouch for that myself, its a very tough comp to play in and IMO it is better than NSW Cup at the moment and NRL clubs are starting notice this fact.

 

[girvie]

There are some positives and negatives out of this.

A lot of fans want to see Norths playing against their traditional rivals like Manly, Canterbury, Parramatta etc.

However as baddog said we are now in a situation where the NSW Cup is the main competition for the clubs competiting in it. In the past when the Premier League comp was full of Nrl clubs they didn't care if the Premier League was promoted because they all focussed on the Nrl. This is different now.

I heard there was a very positive meeting between all NSW Cup clubs and the NSWRL on Wednesday where the issues of promoting and marketing the comp were brought out.
Apparently neither Manly or Canterbury said that they wouldn't be entering teams in 2009.

The NSW Cup is the second strongest competition in Australia and the third strongest in the world. All NSW Cup clubs are linked with an Nrl side and more than double the number of current nrl players have played NSW Cup than Qld Cup this year.

 

[yappy]

Bit of a shame I might only get the joy of watching the Mighty Magpies flog the Silvertails one more time when we beat em in the semis. Probably already beaten the Doggies for the last time. I just hope Saints do join up with Shellharbour and the Vulcans and Newy stay in. It's a good comp and if we could only get it promoted it would grow.

 

[boonboon]

I personally can see an expanded role for the NSW cup in future mainly becuase of the flood of players coming out of the U20s with nowhere else to play , also to help make the grounds viable that these teams play at

 

[Henson Park Hornets]

There are some positives and negatives out of this.

A lot of fans want to see Norths playing against their traditional rivals like Manly, Canterbury, Parramatta etc.

However as baddog said we are now in a situation where the NSW Cup is the main competition for the clubs competiting in it. In the past when the Premier League comp was full of Nrl clubs they didn't care if the Premier League was promoted because they all focussed on the Nrl. This is different now.

I heard there was a very positive meeting between all NSW Cup clubs and the NSWRL on Wednesday where the issues of promoting and marketing the comp were brought out.
Apparently neither Manly or Canterbury said that they wouldn't be entering teams in 2009.

The NSW Cup is the second strongest competition in Australia and the third strongest in the world. All NSW Cup clubs are linked with an Nrl side and more than double the number of current nrl players have played NSW Cup than Qld Cup this year.

Great post, and brings up something that has nagged me for a while now. Why do people keep saying that the Qld Cup is stronger that teh NSW Cup?

The Qld Cup has feeder deals with four NRL clubs:
Brisbane
Nth Qld
Gold Coast
Canberra

Whereas the NSW Cup has deals with the remaining clubs - surely that would indicate that the playing strength of the NSW Cup would be stronger???

Anyway, hopefully now the NSWRL can promote the NSW Cup to the level that it deserves.

I for one will miss Newtown playing Parra, Manly, St George etc however guess that's the price of progress!

 

[Ram Man]

Great post, and brings up something that has nagged me for a while now. Why do people keep saying that the Qld Cup is stronger that teh NSW Cup?

The Qld Cup has feeder deals with four NRL clubs:
Brisbane
Nth Qld
Gold Coast
Canberra

Whereas the NSW Cup has deals with the remaining clubs - surely that would indicate that the playing strength of the NSW Cup would be stronger???

Anyway, hopefully now the NSWRL can promote the NSW Cup to the level that it deserves.

I for one will miss Newtown playing Parra, Manly, St George etc however guess that's the price of progress!

People keep saying the QLD Cup is a better comp because it is becoming that way. Just because a club has an affiliation or a deal with a NRL club does not neccesarily make it stronger.
Every team in the QLD Cup has a number of either current or former NRL players on the books.
St George also have a deal with a QLD cup club which you have forgotten to mention.
The 2 competitions are pretty much the same as far as standard, speed, physicality, and competitive nature.
Im still racking my brains to see why so many people seem to think the NSW Cup is so good.
I have no doubt that the QLD cup competition is run with far more professionalism and competence than the NSW Cup.

 

[baddog]

I have no doubt that the QLD cup competition is run with far more professionalism and competence than the NSW Cup.

no arguments about that. nswrl is a sheltered workshop.

but have a look at the qrl table. first second and third are the club's with the most direct feeder relationship to an nrl side. it ain't no accident. the difference probably isn't huge and the top clubs in the qrl would go good in the nsw cup, but the overall quality in nsw cup is better. cobras tigers bulldogs and knights would be a lot higher in the qrl than they are in nsw cup. having a handful of full timers with nrl experience does make a big difference.

 

[Ram Man]

no arguments about that. nswrl is a sheltered workshop.

but have a look at the qrl table. first second and third are the club's with the most direct feeder relationship to an nrl side. it ain't no accident. the difference probably isn't huge and the top clubs in the qrl would go good in the nsw cup, but the overall quality in nsw cup is better. cobras tigers bulldogs and knights would be a lot higher in the qrl than they are in nsw cup. having a handful of full timers with nrl experience does make a big difference.

I really dont agree with that.
There is really no difference in the 2 competitions.
Sure some of the lower sides in the QLD cup lack a few NRL players, however they would still be more than competitive in the NSW Cup.
Of course it no accident that the top 4 have NRL players, their experience alone is enough to lift the quality of the team let alone the talent. Thats just common sense.
However, how do you explain the Ipswich Jets knocking over the South Logan side that was stacked with NRL stars.
Jets had only Issac Ah Mau and Josh Lewis in the team and the rest were just Ipswich contracted QLD Cup players and Sths Logan had Weyman, Learoyd-Lars, Brett Kelly, Goodwin, and Costigan.

So many people think that the NSW Cup is far better just because they have the same logo as an NRL side or there is an affiliation or they are a feeder team. The simple fact is the 2 competitions are closer than many people realise and simply take the fact that because they are an NRL affiliated club as gospel for being a far superior competition

 

[Roland]

I recall that the Cowboys played one year in the NSW 1st Division (later called Premier League and now State Cup) and made the last 4.

They then went back to Qld Cup and took 5 or 6 years before they made the top 5.

 

[Brownie.Kougari]

Last year a combined Aspley/Redcliffe team hammered a full-strength Canberra team in a trial

 

[girvie]

I think the Qld Cup is pretty close in standard to the NSW Cup but that the NSW Cup is still stronger. Qld Cup is still stronger than the NYC.

One of the other reasons why the NSW Cup is stronger is the number of fringe NSW Cup/ Premier League players who seam to get starts in the Qld Cup. Eg I watched one of the Qld Cup ABC matches recently and Rod Griffin was easily the best on the park. He was a mid-season transfer from Balmain where he was only a bench player in a team near the bottom of the table.

 

[Ram Man]

I think the Qld Cup is pretty close in standard to the NSW Cup but that the NSW Cup is still stronger. Qld Cup is still stronger than the NYC.

One of the other reasons why the NSW Cup is stronger is the number of fringe NSW Cup/ Premier League players who seam to get starts in the Qld Cup. Eg I watched one of the Qld Cup ABC matches recently and Rod Griffin was easily the best on the park. He was a mid-season transfer from Balmain where he was only a bench player in a team near the bottom of the table.

I could come up with a heap of players who were average in QLD Cup and have excelled in NSW Cup, that doesnt mean that one competition is better than the other. And if all you are basing your conclusions on is 1 game that was on ABC, then you really have no evidence to say any different.
Unless you have played the 2, you really cant say that 1 is better than the other.
As far as the NYC goes, it doesnt even come close to either.
Its a kids comp, basically Flegg, and I dont hold it in any high regard at all.
They have just given Flegg a different name as far as I am concerned.

My main point is, they are pretty much exactly the same standard, no one competition is better.

 

[baddog]

the only way to know for sure would be to combine the two into a single comp.

i still contend the nsw cup sides would tend to go better than the banana benders over the entire season and the top half of the table would have more nsw teams and the bottom half more qld teams - mainly due to the presence of the nrl full timers. of course you'll get some upsets and unfancied teams getting wins, but over a full season the cream always rises to the top. there is no chasm between the comps, but the greater nrl influence in nsw gives it the edge.

remember it's not only the top 25 players that get the benefit of the relationship to an nrl side. most nsw nrl clubs have another half dozen 'fringe' players that they partially contract to their feeder and who get to spend time training with the full timers. this improves them and also their sides. you won't get the same amount of players with that experience in qld.

it certainly would be a great comp if we could combine them. if only.

nyc is flegg with the non nsw sides. certainly not a massive improvement on last year's flegg comp. most qrl or nsw cup sides would lap the best nyc sides. just too big, too strong, too experienced, especially in the pack.

 

[Ram Man]

the only way to know for sure would be to combine the two into a single comp.

i still contend the nsw cup sides would tend to go better than the banana benders over the entire season and the top half of the table would have more nsw teams and the bottom half more qld teams - mainly due to the presence of the nrl full timers. of course you'll get some upsets and unfancied teams getting wins, but over a full season the cream always rises to the top. there is no chasm between the comps, but the greater nrl influence in nsw gives it the edge.

remember it's not only the top 25 players that get the benefit of the relationship to an nrl side. most nsw nrl clubs have another half dozen 'fringe' players that they partially contract to their feeder and who get to spend time training with the full timers. this improves them and also their sides. you won't get the same amount of players with that experience in qld.

it certainly would be a great comp if we could combine them. if only.

nyc is flegg with the non nsw sides. certainly not a massive improvement on last year's flegg comp. most qrl or nsw cup sides would lap the best nyc sides. just too big, too strong, too experienced, especially in the pack.

I tend to agree with everything you have said but I think you may be suprised as to how well the QLD teams would go.
You make a lot of sense baddog.
I have no doubt that the NSW sides have an advantage over the QLD sides because of the presence of full timers but there are more fringe players in QLD getting their chance to train with NRL clubs than most people know. Mainly with the QLD clubs though. Especially Brisbane and the Titans, they have quite a few finge guys getting their fair share of the NRL players.
But I just dont think a lot of conclusions that the NSW comp is better when they have no real knowledge on how the QLD comp operates and the behind the scenes arrangments that occur is warranted.
A lot of people have blinkers on and comment on things they dont fully understand or have seen first hand on a regular basis.

Flegg = Boys vs. Boys
NSW/QLD Cup Men vs. Men