What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Millward's delivers a world of pain.

The Friz

Juniors
Messages
232
Dugan is one of the top 13 players in NSW so we should have paid him around the $1M.

Last time I checked Ben Hunt is not exactly equivalent to Cooper Cronk either but we still signed him for $1.2M.
Only according to Daley.
He's not in many other people's top 13.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
So you'd have matched packers offer, given Dugan his asking price, and also played the youngsters and kept them contracted too? Pretty sure that would require an algorithm Einstein would've been proud of.
I get your pain, I do. But say what you mean. Should we have paid 700k 4 years for Packer? Should we have paid 1 mil for Dugan? Which was his asking price, don't sing me a sad song about getting told he's an elite player blah blah blah. That's what he wanted to stay initially. Would you have paid it? It's one thing to criticise fairly, it's another to ignore the realities
I would have made sure that I had last bight at the cherry which is what the good negotiators do. Millward clearly didn't have the last bite or perhaps he never wanted it otherwise he was clearly not good enough to ensure he had it.
Both players had stressed their preference was to stay.
Packer: Yes I would have offered him 4 years. No one can be for certain but consensus is that he would have preferred to stay and may have at less $$$ than he got at the Tigpies but he wanted 4 years.
Dugan: Yes he did ask for $1m and no I wouldn't have paid that but clearly he wanted to stay. I would never have been so stupid as Millward and come out with the "you're a centre quip and will get centre money". That clearly put the shutters up in respect of any ongoing negotiation. I believe we could have kept Dugan for around $800K - 850K if we had of been respectful in our dealings and clearly we were not.
Can we say definitively what would have happened no we can't but I am pretty certain that Millward didn't try overly hard to keep either.
As I said if he didn't want them come out and say it rather than the bullshit line "we have an offer on the table". If you want them you have to negotiate in good faith and if you don't want them just say so rather than trying to push it back on the player as being greedy..
In respect of how to get the juniors in the side well get rid of the dead wood first and there is plenty in the backline and get rid of some of the fringe players in the forwards and have the juniors on the bench and occasionally starting the game.
It is not that hard to do.
 

The Damo

Juniors
Messages
1,991
The clubs been mismanaged. This is self evident. That doesn't mean that every decision made now is wrong. Claiming we paid overs for hunt but lamenting not paying Dugan what he wanted Is pretty inconsistent reasoning to me.mccrone should be dropped and sent to Siberia and host should be starting this week. But field is better off playing long minutes in lower grades. Dufty should get a run, but nene's been a good signing. Selections been too conservative but picking a utility on bench is justified Every team wants forwards playing a power game, claiming Packer is worn out by playing 40-45 minutes for 11 - 13 runs a game and that this is evidence of mismanagement is ridiculous. That's standard starting prop fare.
 

Crush

Coach
Messages
10,412
The clubs been mismanaged. This is self evident. That doesn't mean that every decision made now is wrong. Claiming we paid overs for hunt but lamenting not paying Dugan what he wanted Is pretty inconsistent reasoning to me.mccrone should be dropped and sent to Siberia and host should be starting this week. But field is better off playing long minutes in lower grades. Dufty should get a run, but nene's been a good signing. Selections been too conservative but picking a utility on bench is justified Every team wants forwards playing a power game, claiming Packer is worn out by playing 40-45 minutes for 11 - 13 runs a game and that this is evidence of mismanagement is ridiculous. That's standard starting prop fare.
Quality post. Spot on IMO
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
The clubs been mismanaged. This is self evident. That doesn't mean that every decision made now is wrong. Claiming we paid overs for hunt but lamenting not paying Dugan what he wanted Is pretty inconsistent reasoning to me.mccrone should be dropped and sent to Siberia and host should be starting this week. But field is better off playing long minutes in lower grades. Dufty should get a run, but nene's been a good signing. Selections been too conservative but picking a utility on bench is justified Every team wants forwards playing a power game, claiming Packer is worn out by playing 40-45 minutes for 11 - 13 runs a game and that this is evidence of mismanagement is ridiculous. That's standard starting prop fare.
Damo come on be honest Mc Donald this year is as bad as Lafai was last year plain ordinary.
He doesn't sprint back after the ball he jogs back and gives the opposition every chance to make growing behind him.
Look at his Youtube from last year and reflect on his form this year "chalk and cheese".
Last year they commented how he lost 10-12 kg's and he improved again look at the video and see he has gained all that and some.
Yet again we have managed to bulk a player up and at the same time slow him down.
Re Hunt and Dugan the timing of all that was atrocious and the numbers surrounding Hunt would have made anyone that busted his arse every week behind a shit side a shit coach hostile.
Again Millward at the helm and if I was conspiracy man it looks almost well planned with the desired outcomes achieved.
 

AyiosYiorgos

Coach
Messages
13,486
I have no issue with Millward offering Dugan an offer that was shy of the reported $1million request from Dugan's management. $700k may have been a fair offer.

What I do take issue with is Millward's public comments about the offer which were so unnecessary and completely unprofessional. I can't recall any other club ever making such public declarations about a players' worth (or lack thereof).

Dugan has basically come out and said he signed with the Sharks (reportedly for an offer similar to ours) because of the respect that they showed him in acknowledging him as an elite player.

That tells me that if Millward had kept his incompetent mouth shut and treated Dugan with the respect that he deserves we probably could have retained him for the money that we were offering.

What a mess!

Millward never wanted Dugan to sign, it's so obvious, low balled him cause he knew he wouldnt accept the offer, Dugan didnt get a run on Millwards white board...
 

The Damo

Juniors
Messages
1,991
I would have made sure that I had last bight at the cherry which is what the good negotiators do. Millward clearly didn't have the last bite or perhaps he never wanted it otherwise he was clearly not good enough to ensure he had it.
Both players had stressed their preference was to stay.
Packer: Yes I would have offered him 4 years. No one can be for certain but consensus is that he would have preferred to stay and may have at less $$$ than he got at the Tigpies but he wanted 4 years.
Dugan: Yes he did ask for $1m and no I wouldn't have paid that but clearly he wanted to stay. I would never have been so stupid as Millward and come out with the "you're a centre quip and will get centre money". That clearly put the shutters up in respect of any ongoing negotiation. I believe we could have kept Dugan for around $800K - 850K if we had of been respectful in our dealings and clearly we were not.
Can we say definitively what would have happened no we can't but I am pretty certain that Millward didn't try overly hard to keep either.
As I said if he didn't want them come out and say it rather than the bullshit line "we have an offer on the table". If you want them you have to negotiate in good faith and if you don't want them just say so rather than trying to push it back on the player as being greedy..
In respect of how to get the juniors in the side well get rid of the dead wood first and there is plenty in the backline and get rid of some of the fringe players in the forwards and have the juniors on the bench and occasionally starting the game.
It is not that hard to do.
This is fair enough, but I'd say making an offer says "we want to keep you, on these terms". The Dugan quote has gotten a lot a play - but it wasn't "just a centre" it was "we think his future is at centre, possibly the best centre in the game, and probably the highest paid centre". Those are different things. And Packer if we offered 4 years at 600k that's still 200k he'd be giving up to stay with us. That's a lot of loyalty people expect him to give. We'll prob keep seeing this differently and that's fine, and I appreciate you spelling this out. It gets a bit much seeing repeated claims of "thats shit" without acknowledging the actual factors, or imagining that players shouldn't put their futures first.
The two major changes I want to see are Mann in for mccrone and Dufty given a run at fullback when dugans unavailable. Otherwise I think the risk doesn't outweigh the likely reward in replacing nene, or autism when he's back.
 

epDragon62

First Grade
Messages
5,055
Point 1. No doubt Millward hasn't covered himself in glory when it comes to player signings but I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he is trying to manage the cap
Point 2. Millward is probably under instructions from tight*ss Doust to keep things in check because him and the board are useless at attracting TPA so aren't able to rely on those funds.
Point 3. What is clear is that Mary is wholly incapable of developing players(Dufty & Field should both have had decent game time by now as an example)& correcting players faults(poor kicking from McCrone, McDonald rushing in). That, to me, is where it all starts and ends.
How does it get fixed?? It won't because of Point 2.
Well, Sele and Host are youngsters being developed. Too many ill-considered arguments being made.

I hope Mary proves us wrong and gets the team back on track. I've never thought we could go all the way this year. Mary got us to having a sniff at too 4.

Missing the 8 would be a major failure from our position and I feel certain that we have a team that can do better. There are some tweaks necessary.
 
Last edited:

The Damo

Juniors
Messages
1,991
Damo come on be honest Mc Donald this year is as bad as Lafai was last year plain ordinary.
He doesn't sprint back after the ball he jogs back and gives the opposition every chance to make growing behind him.
Look at his Youtube from last year and reflect on his form this year "chalk and cheese".
Last year they commented how he lost 10-12 kg's and he improved again look at the video and see he has gained all that and some.
Yet again we have managed to bulk a player up and at the same time slow him down.
Re Hunt and Dugan the timing of all that was atrocious and the numbers surrounding Hunt would have made anyone that busted his arse every week behind a shit side a shit coach hostile.
Again Millward at the helm and if I was conspiracy man it looks almost well planned with the desired outcomes achieved.
You could be right about his urgency to get back, will take more notice of that. However I think in attack he's been pretty good, and given last year I think Ash Taylor was kicking and setting him up as opposed to Mccrone has a lot to do with the difference. I still don't know which is actually his best side, but I bet if he's on the right with hunt kicking to him he's gonna look a lot better.
 

Life's Good

Coach
Messages
13,971
Well, Sele and Host are youngsters being developed. Too many ill-considered arguments being made.

I hope Mary proves us wrong and gets the team back on track. I've never thought we could go all the way this year. Mary got us to having a sniff at too 4.

Missing the 8 would be a major failure from our position and I feel certain that we have a team that can do better. There are some tweaks necessary.
I get the point on Sele & Host. I would add that they have been able to watch a couple of good forward leaders in Vaughan & Frizzell which would be contributing to their development so Mary has at least given them that exposure. As for the backs well there really isn't much development at all be it juniors coming through or improving current players(McCrones kicking game, Nene rushing in as examples).
I didn't expect us to be Top 4 either but that is no excuse to throw up your hands and say we have overachieved when we had a great start to the season with a real shot lift overall performance( I am not saying you are, it's more the way I see it).
 

WardyRedV

Juniors
Messages
77
You could be right about his urgency to get back, will take more notice of that. However I think in attack he's been pretty good, and given last year I think Ash Taylor was kicking and setting him up as opposed to Mccrone has a lot to do with the difference. I still don't know which is actually his best side, but I bet if he's on the right with hunt kicking to him he's gonna look a lot better.

Mate you better stop with all this logic.. don't you know it's bad for you!
 

Drag Queen

Bench
Messages
2,981
Evidently according to you my name is Einstein but now I have to be Shakespeare as well?
Yes it is a word whilst not often used still perfectly acceptable.
Maybe repeat 1st class whilst you are it.
Yep, and I'll have a bight (sic) of the cherry whilst I'm at it. Elementary spelling at best. Cheers.
 
Messages
2,866
Yesterday gave a glimpse of 2018 without Dugan. Our backs lost their way without Dugan's toughness and direction. Millward's odd ball approach, to pay Dugan centre's money even though he almost played every game at fullback and we have no genuine fullback waiting in the wings to take over the fullback position. Couple this with Packer getting out to join another basket case in West Tigers. Millward has no credibility and this will see players resistance to sign with the Dragons. Welcome to the 2018 season and beyond.
For me, Millward's pre-ordained announcements have hurt us immeasurably.
"Field will be our FB in 2018"
"Dugan will play centre in 2018 and therefore is only worth centre money"
"We have to sort out Dugan, Widdop and others before sorting out Packer, Mann etc."

Why is all that necessary?
He is not the coach and should not be pre-empting anything.
Let's face it, he painted us into a corner and as a result we probably lost both Dugan and Packer.
Dugan because we dented his ego and Packer because we were not proactive.
How does he know that Dufty won't be a sensation at FB if given the opportunity between now and 2018?
We managed to alienate Mulholland who was a tried and tested recruitment expert and ended up with Millward.
Unbelieveable!
 
Messages
2,866
LOL Nona would be worse than McCrone.

McCrone is a fringe first grader.

Nona is a career reserve grader.

That being said I hope Mary gives him a go soon so that people on this forum can finally put a line through his name and let go of the false hope that he may be the answer.
I for one would like to see him play in FG.
Hard to prove what you say until that actually happens...
We have a woeful kicking game which has already cost us competition points.
That would be the main reason for trying him out.
 

OLD FART DRAGON

Juniors
Messages
37
Having watched Billy's smith play at half he had great hands,we had mark shulman who was a great half also another junior in max Cole ,before he went to the dogs,and I rate hunt as good,I still think Duffy needs another year in reserves,so use Michael Gordon as for Dugan are u forgetting he misses to many games each year with injury,so even if u paid him 500,000 it's really a million we need a player who is harder at fullback,even Mann would be a better option
 
Messages
2,866
Having watched Billy's smith play at half he had great hands,we had mark shulman who was a great half also another junior in max Cole ,before he went to the dogs,and I rate hunt as good,I still think Duffy needs another year in reserves,so use Michael Gordon as for Dugan are u forgetting he misses to many games each year with injury,so even if u paid him 500,000 it's really a million we need a player who is harder at fullback,even Mann would be a better option
Great post!
Billy Smith was an absolute legend.
Tough as teak and, unlike Widdop, could not be man handled or intimidated.
My favourite ever St. George halfback by a long way.
If in fact Dufty is not ready, then Gordon would be a great option for a season as long as he was also given the task of mentoring Dufty.
Mann is an excellent player and plays with heart and passion but I think we haven't seen the best of him because of the constant chopping and changing that he is subjected to.
I'd rather see players selected in their specialist positions than constantly using "utilities".
Dugan should only be considered with short term results in mind because, ostensibly, he is not longer a discussion topic.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,914
Well, Sele and Host are youngsters being developed. Too many ill-considered arguments being made.

I hope Mary proves us wrong and gets the team back on track. I've never thought we could go all the way this year. Mary got us to having a sniff at too 4.
Missing the 8 would be a major failure from our position and I feel certain that we have a team that can do better. There are some tweaks necessary.
Development is what is happening with Hess and Crichton.
Start in the run on side and now playing close to 80 minutes every game.
They chose them, stuck with them, kept backing them and now reap the benefit.
Development is what happens when a back is injured and they replace him with a 19 or 20 year old from lower grades who plays that position and he starts in the run on side and plays 80 minutes.
We have the nucleus of senior players that have not been able to do it consistently so they are obviously not the way forward.
If Mary in your opinion got us a sniff at the top 4 then he is obviously not consistent either because twice in 2 years exactly that has happened and we fell from grace both times.
IMO people are over estimating what we achieved as against what others didn't achieve early in the season.
Every team is now up to full match fitness and any advantage we had from boot camp is now long gone.
At the start of the season everything was about "boot camp" well it doesn't count for shit now and what else do we have left in the locker?
Again we are pinning our hopes on 1 major signing in Hunt to turn us into a premiership chance, well that is not going to happen under current circumstances no matter how good he is because the playing style and the current roster do not cut it when it counts.
 
Top