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Millward's delivers a world of pain.

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,290
Development is what is happening with Hess and Crichton.
Start in the run on side and now playing close to 80 minutes every game.
They chose them, stuck with them, kept backing them and now reap the benefit.
Development is what happens when a back is injured and they replace him with a 19 or 20 year old from lower grades who plays that position and he starts in the run on side and plays 80 minutes.
We have the nucleus of senior players that have not been able to do it consistently so they are obviously not the way forward.
If Mary in your opinion got us a sniff at the top 4 then he is obviously not consistent either because twice in 2 years exactly that has happened and we fell from grace both times.
IMO people are over estimating what we achieved as against what others didn't achieve early in the season.
Every team is now up to full match fitness and any advantage we had from boot camp is now long gone.
At the start of the season everything was about "boot camp" well it doesn't count for shit now and what else do we have left in the locker?
Again we are pinning our hopes on 1 major signing in Hunt to turn us into a premiership chance, well that is not going to happen under current circumstances no matter how good he is because the playing style and the current roster do not cut it when it counts.

So here is the timeline for Coen Hess:

2015 - played in the Auckland 9s for Cowboys
2015 - Debuted for the Mackay Cutters in June
2015 Round 24 - Debuted for the Cowboys
2016 Round 12 - Second game for the Cowboys
2016 - Played a total of 8 games for the Cowboys throughout the year - all of which (except for a finals game) were limited minutes.

Timeline for Crichton

2015 - Played with the Rabbitohs NYC Team
2016 - Played with the North Sydney Bears
2016 Round 19 - Made his Debut with the Rabbitohs.

Tell what is different about these 2 that we are doing with Host, Field and Sele? Or any of our young players? Both of these guys have spent a good amount of time in Reggies getting used to the riggors of first grade - and they are big boys. don't underestimate the value of spending time in the NSW Cup.
 
Messages
2,907
So here is the timeline for Coen Hess:

2015 - played in the Auckland 9s for Cowboys
2015 - Debuted for the Mackay Cutters in June
2015 Round 24 - Debuted for the Cowboys
2016 Round 12 - Second game for the Cowboys
2016 - Played a total of 8 games for the Cowboys throughout the year - all of which (except for a finals game) were limited minutes.

Timeline for Crichton

2015 - Played with the Rabbitohs NYC Team
2016 - Played with the North Sydney Bears
2016 Round 19 - Made his Debut with the Rabbitohs.

Tell what is different about these 2 that we are doing with Host, Field and Sele? Or any of our young players? Both of these guys have spent a good amount of time in Reggies getting used to the riggors of first grade - and they are big boys. don't underestimate the value of spending time in the NSW Cup.
Ok, Host and Sele I'll grant you. But Field, he gets to sit on the bench for 70minutes a game, then gets thrown on when we are down by 20 and the forwards are flogged. Dufty doesn't even get that.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,290
Ok, Host and Sele I'll grant you. But Field, he gets to sit on the bench for 70minutes a game, then gets thrown on when we are down by 20 and the forwards are flogged. Dufty doesn't even get that.

And I'm going to say exactly. Field is a much smaller man and has even admitted himself that he's not ready for first grade. He needs time in the lower grades to build his strength and get ready for the step up. As far as Dufty goes, those guys above didn't get a look into first grade for a almost a year. It's only been 14 rounds so far since his move from U20s. He can only be benefiting from spending time as a fullback (a position which does take massive amounts of punishment) in the Reggies.
 
Messages
2,907
And I'm going to say exactly. Field is a much smaller man and has even admitted himself that he's not ready for first grade. He needs time in the lower grades to build his strength and get ready for the step up. As far as Dufty goes, those guys above didn't get a look into first grade for a almost a year. It's only been 14 rounds so far since his move from U20s. He can only be benefiting from spending time as a fullback (a position which does take massive amounts of punishment) in the Reggies.
I get your point, but I still don't get the club saying these kids are the future but still not giving them a run when Dugan is out. While you can't compare players, other clubs give 19y.o kids a run and do it successfully. I don't think one run in firsts while the incumbent is out is going to hurt their development.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,290
I get your point, but I still don't get the club saying these kids are the future but still not giving them a run when Dugan is out. While you can't compare players, other clubs give 19y.o kids a run and do it successfully. I don't think one run in firsts while the incumbent is out is going to hurt their development.

Yep - understand what you are saying. And I don't disagree. I guess it's probably a bit of a balancing act isn't it?

If you compare someone like Latrell Mitchell who appears to have come straight from U20s to the first grade fullback role (maybe a little time in the NSW team), with someone like Dufty, you've got a 6 foot 4 105kg 20 year old compared to a 5 foot 9 80kg 20 year old. You can understand the concern with bringing him straight into first grade. No matter his skill set, his size is potentially going to be detrimental to his progress this early on. I would prefer to have him playing in the NSW cup for a while longer.

In my opinion, the call to bring him and field into first grade for full games just to see whether they can make it doesn't provide any benefit at all. They would benefit far more from a little game time here and there rather than full games. But that also then means potentially changing the whole structure of the team to accommodate that. IF you want to make a fist of it this year, the less disruptions the better I reckon.

Like I said, it's a balancing act and I really don't know the best answer.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,273
So here is the timeline for Coen Hess:

2015 - played in the Auckland 9s for Cowboys
2015 - Debuted for the Mackay Cutters in June
2015 Round 24 - Debuted for the Cowboys
2016 Round 12 - Second game for the Cowboys
2016 - Played a total of 8 games for the Cowboys throughout the year - all of which (except for a finals game) were limited minutes.

Timeline for Crichton

2015 - Played with the Rabbitohs NYC Team
2016 - Played with the North Sydney Bears
2016 Round 19 - Made his Debut with the Rabbitohs.

Tell what is different about these 2 that we are doing with Host, Field and Sele? Or any of our young players? Both of these guys have spent a good amount of time in Reggies getting used to the riggors of first grade - and they are big boys. don't underestimate the value of spending time in the NSW Cup.
You blokes just don't get it and keep coming up with lame excuses.
Birth dates
Hess 15/02/96
Crichton 14/08/96
Jacob Host 30/09/96
Hame Sele 12/11/96
What is the difference?
The top 2 have already long finished their apprenticeships and are now full time NRL players playing 80 minutes and one is about to debut at SOO after debuting in the NRL at 19.
Crichton killing them after just a handful of games in lower grades and having come from a union background.
They are trusted by their coach and club to be able to deliver on the big stage.
Our 2 are still doing apprenticeships and stuck in our draconian system whereby at the end of 2017 they will still be doing apprenticeships and have journeymen and people who have not been able to deliver still in front of them.
People keep rabbiting on about the great forward pack we have well it certainly doesn't look to good now and hasn't for some weeks and some young legs with ambition would go a long way to fixing it.
We are so ordinary at developing young players we could stunt the growth of a bonsai plant.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,290
You blokes just don't get it and keep coming up with lame excuses.
Birth dates
Hess 15/02/96
Crichton 14/08/96
Jacob Host 30/09/96
Hame Sele 12/11/96
What is the difference?
The top 2 have already long finished their apprenticeships and are now full time NRL players playing 80 minutes and one is about to debut at SOO after debuting in the NRL at 19.
Crichton killing them after just a handful of games in lower grades and having come from a union background.
They are trusted by their coach and club to be able to deliver on the big stage.
Our 2 are still doing apprenticeships and stuck in our draconian system whereby at the end of 2017 they will still be doing apprenticeships and have journeymen and people who have not been able to deliver still in front of them.
People keep rabbiting on about the great forward pack we have well it certainly doesn't look to good now and hasn't for some weeks and some young legs with ambition would go a long way to fixing it.
We are so ordinary at developing young players we could stunt the growth of a bonsai plant.

Actually I think Hess has more teeth than Sele. And I believe Crichton's eyes are brown and Hosts are blue. They're probably just as valid reasons for justifying your stance as age. If you somehow believe this to be a valid argument, just have another look at Sele's birth date compared to the other 2 and then compare his progress.

You are just grasping at straws to justify your position. Probably one of the many you use to build your staw men with.
 

duck

Juniors
Messages
2,017
@Old Timer Coen Hess is a special talent. Bigger and stronger than others his age. By your reckoning any other club with someone his age has slipped up in their junior development if that particular player isn't knocking on the door to play SOO.

You fail to realise different players mature at different ages. Stop getting so hung up on this age thing.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,273
Actually I think Hess has more teeth than Sele. And I believe Crichton's eyes are brown and Hosts are blue. They're probably just as valid reasons for justifying your stance as age. If you somehow believe this to be a valid argument, just have another look at Sele's birth date compared to the other 2 and then compare his progress.

You are just grasping at straws to justify your position. Probably one of the many you use to build your staw men with.
Typical avoidance to the obvious by you the so called true believer.
Across the entire competition there are lots of players given their chance to play 1st grade at a young age 18 and 19 and many find permanent births in their top team.
You can't deny that Hess and Crichton have made it to the top grade and stay there performing well because they were allowed to grow in a system that was forgiving of them making a few errors or playing a bad game or 2.
They are now established 1st grade players and will be for a long time to come.
They have both gone well past Host and unfortunately Sele is going down the same route that Host went before him.
Hess by your own admission debuted at 19 and at 21 is playing SOO that will never happen for any young player in our system irrespective of their ability.
Crichton is in the top grade churning out 80 minutes a game and again that will not happen in our system.
We continue to persevere with people who cannot make a difference week in week out but people like you and our super coach think because they play a good game here and there and because they are "mature" they must keep being selected.
We are again on the slippery slide down the ladder and we get offered up more of the same every week and you keep buying the excuses and follow in behind.
At what point will you see the fact that the many of the permanent 1st graders we have are not good enough to make the difference between being middle of the road and a really good side?
For me I am happy to see the plodders and underachievers punted and the young ones given a chance to cement their spots and futures. Not just 20 - 30 minutes a game and not in the run on side for just a game or 2 but in fact big minutes for at least 8 games.
Then we will really know what we have and whether we need to buy in or not.
Nothing surer than at the end of this season we will not know enough and buy yet another outside player who will further hinder the pathway of our potential champions.
We have only looked at the forwards so don't even start me on the backs.
FFS as soon as we had an opportunity we have Nighty at 1 and KFFL at 5 and Mc Crone with a mortgage on the 7 jumper simply outstanding and all people can say is "their too small or not ready" talk about chicken livered supporters.
 

slippery5

Juniors
Messages
1,203
You blokes just don't get it and keep coming up with lame excuses.
Birth dates
Hess 15/02/96
Crichton 14/08/96
Jacob Host 30/09/96
Hame Sele 12/11/96
What is the difference?
The top 2 have already long finished their apprenticeships and are now full time NRL players playing 80 minutes and one is about to debut at SOO after debuting in the NRL at 19.
Crichton killing them after just a handful of games in lower grades and having come from a union background.
They are trusted by their coach and club to be able to deliver on the big stage.
Our 2 are still doing apprenticeships and stuck in our draconian system whereby at the end of 2017 they will still be doing apprenticeships and have journeymen and people who have not been able to deliver still in front of them.
People keep rabbiting on about the great forward pack we have well it certainly doesn't look to good now and hasn't for some weeks and some young legs with ambition would go a long way to fixing it.
We are so ordinary at developing young players we could stunt the growth of a bonsai plant.
I hate to use this example but, does Jack Bird ring any bells people.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,290
Typical avoidance to the obvious by you the so called true believer.
Across the entire competition there are lots of players given their chance to play 1st grade at a young age 18 and 19 and many find permanent births in their top team.
You can't deny that Hess and Crichton have made it to the top grade and stay there performing well because they were allowed to grow in a system that was forgiving of them making a few errors or playing a bad game or 2.
They are now established 1st grade players and will be for a long time to come.
They have both gone well past Host and unfortunately Sele is going down the same route that Host went before him.
Hess by your own admission debuted at 19 and at 21 is playing SOO that will never happen for any young player in our system irrespective of their ability.
Crichton is in the top grade churning out 80 minutes a game and again that will not happen in our system.
We continue to persevere with people who cannot make a difference week in week out but people like you and our super coach think because they play a good game here and there and because they are "mature" they must keep being selected.
We are again on the slippery slide down the ladder and we get offered up more of the same every week and you keep buying the excuses and follow in behind.
At what point will you see the fact that the many of the permanent 1st graders we have are not good enough to make the difference between being middle of the road and a really good side?
For me I am happy to see the plodders and underachievers punted and the young ones given a chance to cement their spots and futures. Not just 20 - 30 minutes a game and not in the run on side for just a game or 2 but in fact big minutes for at least 8 games.
Then we will really know what we have and whether we need to buy in or not.
Nothing surer than at the end of this season we will not know enough and buy yet another outside player who will further hinder the pathway of our potential champions.
We have only looked at the forwards so don't even start me on the backs.
FFS as soon as we had an opportunity we have Nighty at 1 and KFFL at 5 and Mc Crone with a mortgage on the 7 jumper simply outstanding and all people can say is "their too small or not ready" talk about chicken livered supporters.

As per usual you revert to abuse and derogatory comments. You continue to build your staw men and argue against them. At least it makes you feel good about yourself.

I'm not going to waste time trying to have a civil discussion with you because you are incapable of doing so.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,273
As per usual you revert to abuse and derogatory comments. You continue to build your staw men and argue against them. At least it makes you feel good about yourself.

I'm not going to waste time trying to have a civil discussion with you because you are incapable of doing so.
Again typical
You have a half arsed swipe with the "straw man" argument a few posts back and when you get a bit back you go to water and don't want to play anymore.
The simple fact is you know deep down we don't do as well developing our juniors as other clubs do with theirs but you keep offering excuses like some kind of apologist.
Play the youngsters and if they fail after a reasonable go then it is time to move on but by sticking with the tried and proved non achievers we never find out anything and we still keep bringing others in and that is the truth of the matter.
 

Drag Queen

Bench
Messages
2,981
You blokes just don't get it and keep coming up with lame excuses.
Birth dates
Hess 15/02/96
Crichton 14/08/96
Jacob Host 30/09/96
Hame Sele 12/11/96
What is the difference?
The top 2 have already long finished their apprenticeships and are now full time NRL players playing 80 minutes and one is about to debut at SOO after debuting in the NRL at 19.
Crichton killing them after just a handful of games in lower grades and having come from a union background.
They are trusted by their coach and club to be able to deliver on the big stage.
Our 2 are still doing apprenticeships and stuck in our draconian system whereby at the end of 2017 they will still be doing apprenticeships and have journeymen and people who have not been able to deliver still in front of them.
People keep rabbiting on about the great forward pack we have well it certainly doesn't look to good now and hasn't for some weeks and some young legs with ambition would go a long way to fixing it.
We are so ordinary at developing young players we could stunt the growth of a bonsai plant.
Typical avoidance to the obvious by you the so called true believer.
Across the entire competition there are lots of players given their chance to play 1st grade at a young age 18 and 19 and many find permanent births in their top team.
You can't deny that Hess and Crichton have made it to the top grade and stay there performing well because they were allowed to grow in a system that was forgiving of them making a few errors or playing a bad game or 2.
They are now established 1st grade players and will be for a long time to come.
They have both gone well past Host and unfortunately Sele is going down the same route that Host went before him.
Hess by your own admission debuted at 19 and at 21 is playing SOO that will never happen for any young player in our system irrespective of their ability.
Crichton is in the top grade churning out 80 minutes a game and again that will not happen in our system.
We continue to persevere with people who cannot make a difference week in week out but people like you and our super coach think because they play a good game here and there and because they are "mature" they must keep being selected.
We are again on the slippery slide down the ladder and we get offered up more of the same every week and you keep buying the excuses and follow in behind.
At what point will you see the fact that the many of the permanent 1st graders we have are not good enough to make the difference between being middle of the road and a really good side?
For me I am happy to see the plodders and underachievers punted and the young ones given a chance to cement their spots and futures. Not just 20 - 30 minutes a game and not in the run on side for just a game or 2 but in fact big minutes for at least 8 games.
Then we will really know what we have and whether we need to buy in or not.
Nothing surer than at the end of this season we will not know enough and buy yet another outside player who will further hinder the pathway of our potential champions.
We have only looked at the forwards so don't even start me on the backs.
FFS as soon as we had an opportunity we have Nighty at 1 and KFFL at 5 and Mc Crone with a mortgage on the 7 jumper simply outstanding and all people can say is "their too small or not ready" talk about chicken livered supporters.
Oh no. Comparing ours to theirs. You want Field as a half? Really? I did take a break from your post to have a three course meal and it was yummy.
 

Drag Queen

Bench
Messages
2,981
As per usual you revert to abuse and derogatory comments. You continue to build your staw men and argue against them. At least it makes you feel good about yourself.

I'm not going to waste time trying to have a civil discussion with you because you are incapable of doing so.
Don't worry because I'm pretty sure he's a dick. Needs to get a life me thinks lol
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,273
Oh no. Comparing ours to theirs. You want Field as a half? Really? I did take a break from your post to have a three course meal and it was yummy.
Where exactly did I say I wanted Field as a half?
If you are going to come to shit fight try not to tread in it before it starts.

Don't worry because I'm pretty sure he's a dick. Needs to get a life me thinks lol
With the name Drag Queen you would certainly know about dick's and no doubt you have several live's so you must have several dicks because you can't be that stupid playing with just one.
 

epDragon62

Bench
Messages
4,409
Typical avoidance to the obvious by you the so called true believer.
Across the entire competition there are lots of players given their chance to play 1st grade at a young age 18 and 19 and many find permanent births in their top team.
You can't deny that Hess and Crichton have made it to the top grade and stay there performing well because they were allowed to grow in a system that was forgiving of them making a few errors or playing a bad game or 2.
They are now established 1st grade players and will be for a long time to come.
They have both gone well past Host and unfortunately Sele is going down the same route that Host went before him.
Hess by your own admission debuted at 19 and at 21 is playing SOO that will never happen for any young player in our system irrespective of their ability.
Crichton is in the top grade churning out 80 minutes a game and again that will not happen in our system.
We continue to persevere with people who cannot make a difference week in week out but people like you and our super coach think because they play a good game here and there and because they are "mature" they must keep being selected.
We are again on the slippery slide down the ladder and we get offered up more of the same every week and you keep buying the excuses and follow in behind.
At what point will you see the fact that the many of the permanent 1st graders we have are not good enough to make the difference between being middle of the road and a really good side?
For me I am happy to see the plodders and underachievers punted and the young ones given a chance to cement their spots and futures. Not just 20 - 30 minutes a game and not in the run on side for just a game or 2 but in fact big minutes for at least 8 games.
Then we will really know what we have and whether we need to buy in or not.
Nothing surer than at the end of this season we will not know enough and buy yet another outside player who will further hinder the pathway of our potential champions.
We have only looked at the forwards so don't even start me on the backs.
FFS as soon as we had an opportunity we have Nighty at 1 and KFFL at 5 and Mc Crone with a mortgage on the 7 jumper simply outstanding and all people can say is "their too small or not ready" talk about chicken livered supporters.
OT, I really don't think we have much to complain about with Host and Sele. Both have been given a fair bit of game time and both have also show a little bit of set back. I really Mary is not far off the mark with these two.

In the backs I certainly think we should do more and the persistence with McCrone after the recent performances is baffling. McCrone probably looked better as a result of our forwards being more dominant and now we need plan B. Plan B should not include McCrone except on the bench. I agree with the view that Simms has not provided what we should expect, he could do with a jolt in NSW Cup.

I would love us to try Mann at the back or in the halves too with Dugan at right centre, while also swapping the wingers around. We need to try something now.
 

duck

Juniors
Messages
2,017
Four of our 2016 U20 squad with first grade experience.
We are ahead of any other club in this regard.
 

duck

Juniors
Messages
2,017
... and McCrone with a mortgage on the 7 jumper simply outstanding and all people can say is "their too small or not ready" talk about chicken livered supporters.
Field himself said he was too small and not ready.

But hey, what would he know?
 
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