Montreal Screwjob

[Meth]

ok, I know that this has undoubtedly been discussed on here before (perhaps to death), but I'm interested to know where people stand on this.

I remember feeling aggrieved for Bret Hart when it first happened. But the more that I listen to Hart, the less sympathy I have for him. He is clearly full of himself and his refusal to drop the belt when told to, where told to and to whom he was told to is a reflection of his narcissism.

Obviously, the Kliq was a problem and Michaels was a train wreck....but I don't see why Hart is portrayed as the victim.

 

[DB]

Well, he did agree to drop the belt, just not in Canada

 

[Meth]

Well, he did agree to drop the belt, just not in Canada

Yeah, but that's the tail wagging the dog, isn't it?

 

[Marshall_magic]

Hart should have jobbed as he was leaving, but refused. Vince went about getting the belt off him in the most dickish way imaginable. One of those scenarios were everyone was in the wrong.

 

[Scott Gourley's Lovechild]

I have zero empathy for Hart. He had limited dates left, and his only real opponent was HBK whom he hated. If it was up to Hart he would of probably dropped the title to The Jackyl. Survivor Series was the right place to do it, not Raw. And his attitude since has been deplorable, even after coming to terms with WWE (god I wish WWE used Jim Neidhart with Natalya rather than Uncle Bret).

 

[Meth]

I have zero empathy for Hart. He had limited dates left, and his only real opponent was HBK whom he hated. If it was up to Hart he would of probably dropped the title to The Jackyl. Survivor Series was the right place to do it, not Raw. And his attitude since has been deplorable, even after coming to terms with WWE (god I wish WWE used Jim Neidhart with Natalya rather than Uncle Bret).

Yeah, exactly right.

One of the things that has really taken the sheen of Bret's legacy (for me, anyway) is how apparently self-absorbed he is. It comes through in just about every interview of his I hear these days

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

Genuine question, as its been close to 10 years, or more since I last looked into it.
Did Bret has creative control? Or at least a creative control clause on him dropping the title?

If not, then he had no right to refuse to drop the title where and when, sure he can recommend where or have a preference where not to, but at the end of the day, if he doesn't have creative control then he is well in the wrong. Regardless of how loyal he had been.

 

[Mogsheen Jadwat]

Don't blame Vince for it, they already had the ex wwf womens champ trashing the belt on a rival promotions live tv cast, as if they're gonna give that opportunity for their most prestigious title.

Bret needed to be a pro about it and wasnt (not wanting to drop in canada) , so as a result vince was unprofessional... but it only helped vince and the wwf longterm.

 

[shiznit]

I have zero empathy for Hart. He had limited dates left, and his only real opponent was HBK whom he hated. If it was up to Hart he would of probably dropped the title to The Jackyl. Survivor Series was the right place to do it, not Raw. And his attitude since has been deplorable, even after coming to terms with WWE (god I wish WWE used Jim Neidhart with Natalya rather than Uncle Bret).

It's easy to say that he should have dropped the belt to HBK at that time...

But there's more to it then just those reasons you've mentioned...

He would have dropped the belt to someone other than HBK... The fact it was HBK made it unbareable for him...

Remembering that he was always a guy who did right by Vince...

I mean he won the title from Ric Flair in a house show in the middle of nowhere...

He was forced to give the title up to Hogan through the silliest way possible at that Wrestlemania in Vegas.

He also dropped the title very strong to HBK at Wrestlemania... Only for HBK to pull some sort of bullshit about trying to find his smile... So he could avoid doing the right thing for the next in line...

The guy wanted to drop the belt similar to Flair did to him...

I do agree that all sides f**ked it up... But I think it's too simplistic to just say Bret Should have dropped it at SS to HBK.

 

[Marshall_magic]

Don't blame Vince for it, they already had the ex wwf womens champ trashing the belt on a rival promotions live tv cast, as if they're gonna give that opportunity for their most prestigious title.

Bret needed to be a pro about it and wasnt (not wanting to drop in canada) , so as a result vince was unprofessional... but it only helped vince and the wwf longterm.

Was the screwjob before or after Jarrett held Vince to ransom over the IC title? If it was after then you definitely can't blame Vince.

Still they could have had the ref fast count or have Michaels use something other than Bret's finisher. It's like they went as far as they could to embarrass Bret. That said it did only help Vince, and we got one of the greatest heel promos ever from Michaels in 2005 because of it.

 

[Scott Gourley's Lovechild]

Jeff Jarrett left after Hart.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

It's easy to say that he should have dropped the belt to HBK at that time...

But there's more to it then just those reasons you've mentioned...

He would have dropped the belt to someone other than HBK... The fact it was HBK made it unbareable for him...

Remembering that he was always a guy who did right by Vince...

I mean he won the title from Ric Flair in a house show in the middle of nowhere...

He was forced to give the title up to Hogan through the silliest way possible at that Wrestlemania in Vegas.

He also dropped the title very strong to HBK at Wrestlemania... Only for HBK to pull some sort of bullshit about trying to find his smile... So he could avoid doing the right thing for the next in line...

The guy wanted to drop the belt similar to Flair did to him...

I do agree that all sides f**ked it up... But I think it's too simplistic to just say Bret Should have dropped it at SS to HBK.

It doesn't matter if it was unbearable for him.
He was contracted to the federation, and they requested he dropped the belt to HBK at Survivor Series.
Personal feelings should be left aside, this is a business and he should do what he is contracted to do. Regardless of the feelings between the wrestlers themselves.

Yes, it wasn't an ideal ending for his WWF career, yes it wasn't an ideal location, yes it wasn't an ideal opponent. The whole thing wasn't ideal for Hart. Probably the worst way for him to drop the title in his eyes was to HBK there that night, but it was his job. He got paid to be the champion, he got paid to play the character, he got paid to follow the script.

I don't know how staunch he was in his stance, and whether he was willing to drop it or if he flat our refused, so my arguement may be flawed. But if it was a case of Hart simply refusing to drop the title again HBK at SS then Vince made, albeit a dick move, Vince and co made the right call.

 

[Valheru]

I also have no sympathy for Bret Hart. He was asked to do the job on the way out and he refused. I get the whole HBK attitude problem and the fact Bret said he would drop it to someone else but at then end of he day, business is business and he has no one to blame but himself for how things worked out.

As others have said, Vince tabled every type of finish he could think of and Bret refused all of them, hell, he could have even negotiated the exact finish that happened (a worked shoot instead of a shoot obviously) and he could have went to WCW as the hottest commodity in wrestling without the bitterness and petulance he had for 10 years afterwards.

I think Bret deep down knows that he did the wrong thing and I also think he knows the wrestling business had passed him by 97/98 and it is just something he hasn't been able to fully come to peace with.

 

[Meth]

Genuine question, as its been close to 10 years, or more since I last looked into it.
Did Bret has creative control? Or at least a creative control clause on him dropping the title?

If not, then he had no right to refuse to drop the title where and when, sure he can recommend where or have a preference where not to, but at the end of the day, if he doesn't have creative control then he is well in the wrong. Regardless of how loyal he had been.

I think he had creative control with regards to his exit from the company...not sure if he always had it. I think the problem was that he was completely unwilling to entertain any option that was a win for the company, but not immediately for himself

 

[Meth]

Was the screwjob before or after Jarrett held Vince to ransom over the IC title? If it was after then you definitely can't blame Vince.

Still they could have had the ref fast count or have Michaels use something other than Bret's finisher. It's like they went as far as they could to embarrass Bret. That said it did only help Vince, and we got one of the greatest heel promos ever from Michaels in 2005 because of it.

Why it had to be the sharpshooter is an interesting discussion point.

Fast count would be a lot more obvious and scrappier than a submission hold.

But why his own hold? Because Hart wouldn't expect it? Or to rub salt?

 

[Meth]

btw- this was also the birth of the Vince McMahon heel character.

 

[shiznit]

It doesn't matter if it was unbearable for him.
He was contracted to the federation, and they requested he dropped the belt to HBK at Survivor Series.
Personal feelings should be left aside, this is a business and he should do what he is contracted to do. Regardless of the feelings between the wrestlers themselves.

Yes, it wasn't an ideal ending for his WWF career, yes it wasn't an ideal location, yes it wasn't an ideal opponent. The whole thing wasn't ideal for Hart. Probably the worst way for him to drop the title in his eyes was to HBK there that night, but it was his job. He got paid to be the champion, he got paid to play the character, he got paid to follow the script.

I don't know how staunch he was in his stance, and whether he was willing to drop it or if he flat our refused, so my arguement may be flawed. But if it was a case of Hart simply refusing to drop the title again HBK at SS then Vince made, albeit a dick move, Vince and co made the right call.

I think that's bullshit... There was never a requirement for Hart to drop it to HBK.

Here was a guy who had ALWAYS done the right thing by the company... To the point Vince almost had to beg him to take the WCW offer as he just couldn't afford to keep him...

He was given the belt in a bloody house show in the middle of nowhere... He then dropped the belt super strong to HBK which launched his era...

Then when HBK was due to do the same for the next in line he weaselled his way out to 'find his smile'...

Then you have all the personal issues between the two and you ask him to drop it to HBK??

You talk about the pro wrestling business... A real pro would never act the way HBK did... Politics aside...

Breaking kayfabe continously ... And not doing right by others was the reason Hart refused to drop it to him... Especially in Canada...

Vince did what he did... And it worked for him... But don't give me this Bret wasn't being a pro bullshit...

He was always a pro... The problem was Vince decided to go with a guy who at the time was anything but a pro...

Oh and by the way... What happened when it was time for HBK to drop the belt to Austin??

He started playing games again... So much so that the Undertaker had to threaten him to do the right thing...

 

[TheDalek079]

Cornette sums it up pretty well

 

[Marshall_magic]

Why it had to be the sharpshooter is an interesting discussion point.

Fast count would be a lot more obvious and scrappier than a submission hold.

But why his own hold? Because Hart wouldn't expect it? Or to rub salt?

Probably the latter, seems like it was a don't eff with the boss statement.

 

[Pete Cash]

Its a very interesting event really when one considers both sides.

Bret should have been willing to do business but he did have a contract that gave him reasonable creative control. Vince should have honoured his end of the deal regarding that contract but they were in trouble and couldny afford to have the belt held up in wcw nonsense.

Bret would have dropped the belt to just about anyone else in the company. If you guys can recall a few years later that austin would drop the belt to foley who drops it to hhh the next night on raw. There has always been rumours that either austin refused to job the title to hhh or even weirder still that jesse ventura (who was ref) didnt want to do the match if a heel won.

They have shown great flexibility to handle wrestlers egos and weird shit that gets thrown up. Its just odd to me that a solution like bret drops the belt to someone else who drops it to shawn wasnt just come up with instead of vince potentially breaking his contract with bret regarding creative control.

What would have been extremely interesting (had bret not assaulted vince) would have been the legal case if bret had sued. Like how would a court rule on reasonable creative control.
Edit

Just on the question of why the sharpshooter. I always just thought that it was a planned spot and they decided that it would just be done there.

They didnt want bret to see it coming and to just go into business for himself because he was likely to beat shawn in a shoot so it was a perfect spot to do it. Like shawn working heel goes for the faces submission hold. That is a perfectly normal spot in a match like that.