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magpie_man

Juniors
Messages
1,973
While it's a fanciful notion adding more teams to the competition to potentially increase broadcasting revenue, exposure for sponsors and heartland/non-heartland fan bases; I think, overall, it will be detrimental to the strength of the competition and will put too much strain on key areas:
a. The clubs - 50 more nrl-standard players are going to have to come from somewhere. The gap between the Toyota cup and nrl is too large for a significant amount to come from there. Ditto with the ESL to a lesser degree; for every Gareth Ellis there's a matt orford. The vast majority are going to have to come from the other clubs, diluting the talent and the closeness of the competition which will have a counterproductive effect on memberships, crowds and even tv ratings. As it stands, the extra strain is the last thing that the likes of the titans and crounulla need right now.
b. Coaches. The disparity between the quality of coaches currently is dire. As far as im concerned, there are 3 top-shelf coaches in the nrl: Bennett, Bellamy and hassler. There are a few on the next rung down like sheens and Cleary but after that standard is pretty poor. I think the nrl would be better served setting-up some kind of coaches academy and getting the likes of Phil Gould, Bennett etc. giving aspiring coaches accredited training in order to get the best out of the players and strengthen the competition overall. I don't want to go back to the days of seeing the likes of fittler/langmack as first grade coaches.
c. Adjudicating - while, thus far the refereeing this season has been ok, last year it was diabolical. It's extremely frustrating for fans and players alike and, again, I'd rather see the nrl set-up some sort of academy for adjudicators and give them proper training.
This upcoming broadcasting rights boon should be used to strengthen the competition overall so that it's in a good position to expand come the next contract at around 2018.
It's not time yet.
 

Pugzley

Guest
Messages
6,098
Just as long as they kick out Melbourne and bring back The North Sydney Bears, The Western Suburb Magpies and The Illawara Steelers.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,972
I disagree entirely.

NZ is bringing in more juniors than ever before. Perth and Melbourne are getting closer to the point where they will produce a steady stream of players.

With a renewed focus on junior development in Perth and Melbourne, as well as looking outwards to places like PNG, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, SA, and more money in the game allowing is to turn the tables on Union, there will be enough players.

Points b and c aren't worth responding to.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
73,631
not going to happen for 4 years anyway so the not right now is a mute point. Player numbers there is a heap of untapped talent in both teh NSw cup and Q'land cup comps plus RU to cherry pick if we have the right income and salary cap plus English SL plus players that leave the NRL to play in other comps. Putting two teams of 20 decent players together won't be a problem with an increased salary cap.

Coaching, you do have a point but not sure the addition of two new teams makes a blind bit if difference, sometimes great coaches will come through, sometimes poor ones will get jobs, doesn;t matter if there is 16 or 18 teams.

re refs again the problem is in overall standard not that we have 6 really great refs and 2 really poor ones and adding another one will mean it will be a poor one.

Obviously I am biased but there is no better time for the NRl to expand and broaden its footprint. We have a number of great options banging down the door, the game will have more money than ever before, TV viewing audiences will grow even greater, most of the bids have jnr development plans as part of the growth of the game at all levels etc etc
 

nqboy

First Grade
Messages
8,914
I disagree entirely.

NZ is bringing in more juniors than ever before. Perth and Melbourne are getting closer to the point where they will produce a steady stream of players.

With a renewed focus on junior development in Perth and Melbourne, as well as looking outwards to places like PNG, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, SA, and more money in the game allowing is to turn the tables on Union, there will be enough players.
And all of it funded by the increase in TV rights and the new market opened by the Reds.
 

flippikat

First Grade
Messages
5,680
I disagree entirely.

NZ is bringing in more juniors than ever before. Perth and Melbourne are getting closer to the point where they will produce a steady stream of players.

With a renewed focus on junior development in Perth and Melbourne, as well as looking outwards to places like PNG, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, SA, and more money in the game allowing is to turn the tables on Union, there will be enough players.

If you look at expansion from a "playing strength" viewpoint, New Zealand and the Pacific Islands have a very strong case - plenty of juniors playing rugby league or union (which is a similar skill set). Unfortunately as far as financial returns go, it's probably not be as lucrative as Perth or Adelaide where the TV timezones are more suited to Australian audiences.

Still, with regards to playing strength the original post does have a point - surely there's an ultimate limit to how big the competition can be, while keeping all teams competitive? 20 seems to be a generally agreed number around this forum - at least in the medium term (approx 10 years).

In my opinion, beyond 4 expansion spots, either we REALLY need to crank up junior growth or player retention or head-hunting from rugby union - OR Sydney needs to be rationalised.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
73,631
If the ARLC has the will then Perth and Melbourne could be generating plenty of 1st grade players within a few years. Because the Storm were not a part of the VRL from day one jnr development in the state was negleted for the best part of 10 years with the benefit of having an NRl team not filtering down to a significant increase in jnrs/schools and amateur RL players. The VRL comp hardly grew for the first decade of the Storms existence. Hopefully if the Reds bid is successful its close tie in with the WARl will not see the same thing happen in WA.
The Western Force, through a $12mill ARU development grant, developed some very succesful jnr programs when it joined the S15 (again it is closely alligned to RugbyWA) and they now have a number of 1st team players that were born and bred in WA.

If the ARLC gets serious about funding grass roots RL development in WA then no reason we will not see a number of WA 1st teamers within a few years. We already have about 7 NRL players playing for other clubs that came through the WA system.
 

flippikat

First Grade
Messages
5,680
If the ARLC has the will then Perth and Melbourne could be generating plenty of 1st grade players within a few years. Because the Storm were not a part of the VRL from day one jnr development in the state was negleted for the best part of 10 years with the benefit of having an NRl team not filtering down to a significant increase in jnrs/schools and amateur RL players. The VRL comp hardly grew for the first decade of the Storms existence. Hopefully if the Reds bid is successful its close tie in with the WARl will not see the same thing happen in WA.
The Western Force, through a $12mill ARU development grant, developed some very succesful jnr programs when it joined the S15 (again it is closely alligned to RugbyWA) and they now have a number of 1st team players that were born and bred in WA.

If the ARLC gets serious about funding grass roots RL development in WA then no reason we will not see a number of WA 1st teamers within a few years. We already have about 7 NRL players playing for other clubs that came through the WA system.

You hit the nail on the head right there.

It's good that WA have put some effort in developing juniors - the NRL need to get on board and back them up. Likewise if the NRL are serious about expanding to ANOTHER non-traditional area (*cough*Adelaide*cough*) in a future expansion phase then a junior plan needs to be worked on NOW.

Areas that are already well versed in rugby league will have some systems in place, but it's still a good idea for the NRL to assist their juniors - whether or not they plan on bidding for an NRL spot.

It's in existing clubs best interest (not just Sydney teams) for the NRL to invest in development outside of Qld & NSW - otherwise expansion teams will just add to the scramble over the same pool of juniors we have now.
 
Last edited:

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
Expansion generates money.
Money buys players and grassroots development.
Grassroots development creates more players.
More players means more expansion.
Expansion generates money.......
Rinse.
Repeat.
 

magpie_man

Juniors
Messages
1,973
Thanks for all of your responses.
I agree with the general sentiment that the talent is around - and is largely untapped - particularly in NZ, png and throughout the pacific islands, however raw talent doesn't always equate to first grade material, as we've sadly seen so often in the nrl. The coaching and pathways need to be in place to nurture the talent in preparation for the step-up to and the week-in-week-out grind of the nrl, which is mainly my point. I dont think they are there yet to cope with adding another two teams.
don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the game expand to WA, welcome back the bears and add teams to qld and NZ but I think that it's more important to have a close, credible competition where fans are seeing their team in a close contest each week. The AFL has lost a lot of credibility with the addition of gc and the blow-outs last year were not a good look and they will only get worse this year.
 

baldie

Juniors
Messages
139
Out of interest, does anyone know how many players are in the nrl who played their juniors in WA or VIC?
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
The AFL has lost a lot of credibility with the addition of gc and the blow-outs last year were not a good look and they will only get worse this year.

See the blow-outs with GC & GWS are odd because they get given a whole heap of concessions. I think they've taken the tact of getting young players and developing them from scratch. A couple of the older more established players just sound like mercenaries for hire so it's no wonder there's a lack of cohesion.

With the NRL's salary cap teams have to pay the limit. There's enough pro players to spread out inside the NRL itself, in conjunction with returning UK players and then join an influx of union players and new rookies.

That's the nature of cap - to distribute talent. Put 4 new teams in with a decent salary cap you can attract $25 million worth of talent a season. I can think of a bunch of players to buy up right now.
 
Messages
14,139
I generally disagree with the OP. BUT, there is one point that is worth considering.

The inclusion of any new NRL club will suck anywhere up to 100 players out of the exisiting system. This will have a flow on effect all the way through the game's structure, from under 18s right through. One might say that 100 players isn't much, or even 200 if there are two clubs added, and that it will only impact on a certain level of the game. But if you sign up the next best 100 players from, say, the 17-23 year old bracket that's 100 player who would otherwise be playing in local comps around the country. Some of those local comps rely on good, young players. They already lose most to the NRL system. A few more might not seem like much but it will have an effect. It's no good growing the game at the top level if it hurts the lower levels that underpin it.

The only ways to mitigate this problem are to either grow the player base in the areas that are impacted by NRL recruitment or find new player pools. Hopefully the increase in money that should come into the game can do both. But I fear that it won't. I can see NRL clubs continuing to rely on the same old player pools without enough going into those areas to sustain them. That's why I favour new franchises that will promote new player pools like Perth, NZ II and PNG. But even Perth will rely a lot on more traditional areas in the short to medium term.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
73,631
Agreed and I get the feeling there may well have been a long term plan to bring Perth in as that was what has basically happened over the last 4 years through the WARl and ARL in Perth. Jnr academies, schools comps and a SG ball side have all been set up and are now starting to bare fruit. Still some ways to go and more $'s needed to increase the jnr pool in WA but there is another 3 years to keep developing.

At the time I though it was a strange decision by the WARL to drop the Jim Beam cup team and switch resources to jnr's but I wonder if this was at the instigation of the NRL with the thought that eventually a WA team will be in and needing a jnr pool to call upon.

if it was a big concern then the NRL could be proactive and partner WA with PNG and find ways to bring PNG talent through the WA system instantly increasing the WA available jnr pool massively.

Of the other bids they are in RL heartlands so they will be drawing upon well established systems. I often wonder how many very talented NSW and Q'land kids don't get the chance to shine and play NRL as there is very limited places available for them to move up to.

The NFL managed to expand by a number of teams with no increase in jnr players over and above what existed and didn;t drop the quality of the comp. Isn;t there something like 50k kids playing RL? Surely there is enough talent if given the structures and opportunities to make up another two teams, and that is without including the short term signings of talent in other codes and SL.

the way I see it is that the new clubs will be made up of a mixture of existing NRL players (minor amount), returning NRL players from Sl who may have 2-3 years left in them, talent from the reserve grade comps that isn't currently getting a go with their partner NRL club and hopefully some RU converts.
 
Messages
14,139
It's not that there aren't enough juniors. The problem is that if you take more of them for the NRL there are less of them to become seniors in their local comps, which threatens the quality and even viability of some clubs/comps. And local senior comps are vital to the ongoing strength of the game, even at junior level.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
73,631
It's not that there aren't enough juniors. The problem is that if you take more of them for the NRL there are less of them to become seniors in their local comps, which threatens the quality and even viability of some clubs/comps. And local senior comps are vital to the ongoing strength of the game, even at junior level.

Maybe one answer is to look at why so many jnr's don't go on to play snrs? Not sure that you should be stunting the growth of the game at the top to artificially keep more players in lower grades.

As someone else put a stronger NRL means better funded grass roots (if the ARLC does it job right!)

Taking 4 kids out of NSW to join the Reds SG ball side isn't going to threaten the viability of the Panthers leagues set up for example.
 
Messages
14,139
Maybe one answer is to look at why so many jnr's don't go on to play snrs? Not sure that you should be stunting the growth of the game at the top to artificially keep more players in lower grades.

As someone else put a stronger NRL means better funded grass roots (if the ARLC does it job right!)

Taking 4 kids out of NSW to join the Reds SG ball side isn't going to threaten the viability of the Panthers leagues set up for example.
No but taking one or two kids out of a country club to play under 20s or keeping older players in the NRL who might otherwise go back to the country might be enough to ruin clubs' ability to be competitive and therefore keep a side on the park. If a club folds the comp it is in might fold too and the whole thing falls apart. It might seem unlikely but there are clubs and competitions that are on a knife's edge and losing a few more of their best players or robbing them of potential experienced players could be the last straw.

There are some clubs that will benefit the player pool. Ie, they will provide more growth in the player base than they will take. I think Perth can be one of those, but not immediately. NZ II and PNG are the best bets in this regard. The heartland bids in NSW and Qld are least likely to achieve this, especially outside their immediate actchments.
 

gyallop

Juniors
Messages
551
the biggest problem in the game is parastic attitude of the NSW clubs, Qld has won 6 origins in a row for good reason and that is based off a strong grass roots. NSW needs to punt the dinasours running the game who find reasons why the Qld model wont work in NSW. NSW keep pulling players out of the bush with no plan to bring through the next generation.....if you keep picking the fruit and hope the tree grows more without replanting you will eventually starve....NSW were given the blue print by Qld in the best interests of the game but the dinasours said no that wont work here and instead banned 2 clubs from having feeeder clubs in Qld as their plan.....6 origins in a row and the NSW clubs racing to steal Qld kids says it all doesnt it.....they have stuffed their own state so why not try to stuff Qld as well.

Quality of players isnt a problem in the game as such but the development of players so they become quality players is.
 

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