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NRL Finals 2024

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,393
legit though, Hynes seems to struggle in big games and he isn't delivering on what they are paying him
He's not, but that's on the Sharks. They were the ones that decided they'd pay big money for a guy to play halfback who hadn't played that position much at all in his career (actually never as a starting player, now I check) and came out of the Melbourne system where you're never really sure whether it's the player or the environment.

Hynes is two games back from a nigh-on two month layoff with a rupture and fracture of his ankle. Tallis is a joke, if Hynes was at Brisbane he'd have the cone of silence around him.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,393
I'm torn as to who I want to win, as I've made very clear in the past I just hope it isn't Melbourne. Winds me up listening to Willie Mason yesterday, too, saying Cronk won 6 premierships.

I like the idea of the Clearys winning 4 straight, especially Nathan who is an absolute freak of a person. But then, I don't like their style so much. Roosters, they can't win - they're hot air right now. Manly, I like them but last week showed they don't have the chops, either. NQ are a cool side and I wouldn't have any problem them going deep. Sharks, no issue with them, either.

Melbourne Penrith final does set up the best (and seems inevitable) and Penrith no doubt feel they have to beat Melbourne in a GF to truly say they are the best of the modern era.
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,166
With Hynes, I can't shake the feeling that maybe he's just not that good? This is a bloke who was effectively a reserve grader until he was 24, played one full season as a fill-in utility for the Storm and then got signed as a marquee player for the Sharks and won the Dally M. I dunno, when I visualise Hynes playing I'm just not really sure what his stand-out attributes are that make him an elite player? He's a nice mixture of a decent fullback's running game (albeit without elite speed) and a bit of ball playing skill without really having a great long kicking game or being a genuine game manager. It all feels a bit Emperor's New Clothes to me.
 
Messages
731
Melbourne Penrith final does set up the best (and seems inevitable) and Penrith no doubt feel they have to beat Melbourne in a GF to truly say they are the best of the modern era.
You reckon? I'd be surprised if Penrith feel that way... maybe an element of wanting some payback sure, but if I was Cleary I wouldn't feel like beating Melb in a GF is needed to cement the team's legacy.

4 consec GFs and 3 prems so far is pretty compelling. I know they lost to them in the '20 GF, but they also beat them in the prelim finals both last year and in '21.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,393
You reckon? I'd be surprised if Penrith feel that way... maybe an element of wanting some payback sure, but if I was Cleary I wouldn't feel like beating Melb in a GF is needed to cement the team's legacy.

4 consec GFs and 3 prems so far is pretty compelling. I know they lost to them in the '20 GF, but they also beat them in the prelim finals both last year and in '21.
Yeah I don't have a direct line to Penrith but I think I know how they operate, having watched their documentary, seeing how Ivan works etc...I think if it's Melbourne, it gives it an extra edge over just being for 4 in a row. Yep absolutely they beat them en route in those years, but Melbourne dicked them for the minor premiership and if the Storm beat them in the GF this year, the media rhetoric (and maybe from inside Melbourne) would be all good, three in a row, but you couldn't beat Melbourne in the big dance given two gos at it.
 
Messages
731
Yeah I don't have a direct line to Penrith but I think I know how they operate, having watched their documentary, seeing how Ivan works etc...I think if it's Melbourne, it gives it an extra edge over just being for 4 in a row. Yep absolutely they beat them en route in those years, but Melbourne dicked them for the minor premiership and if the Storm beat them in the GF this year, the media rhetoric (and maybe from inside Melbourne) would be all good, three in a row, but you couldn't beat Melbourne in the big dance given two gos at it.
Yea fair enough. I can see how someone in the media would push that narrative, even if just for airtime.

I'd be happy to see the other finals clubs do well, but the purist in me really wants a Penrith v Melb GF. With Cleary now back and firing, the gap between them and the others really is daylight and one of them deserves the prem.
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,330
I'm on board the Manly bandwagon now. If the Roosters beat them, I'll go for them.
WTF - Manly and the Roosters... Man, that's up there with the Broncos and Storm...

Jean Yoon Jealousy GIF by Kim's Convenience
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,330
Yeah I don't have a direct line to Penrith but I think I know how they operate, having watched their documentary, seeing how Ivan works etc...I think if it's Melbourne, it gives it an extra edge over just being for 4 in a row. Yep absolutely they beat them en route in those years, but Melbourne dicked them for the minor premiership and if the Storm beat them in the GF this year, the media rhetoric (and maybe from inside Melbourne) would be all good, three in a row, but you couldn't beat Melbourne in the big dance given two gos at it.
that's why people are turning the media off tbh, we're fed bullshit like that too often
 

Big Marn

Bench
Messages
2,916
With the same old teams once again competing for the title, once again i pondered why we dont have a draft to even up the competition. Theres a multitude of reasons but the NRL did try to have a draft system once upon a time back in 1991.

This is a fascinating read which I have no recollection of when it was happening at the time. Memory is shot...

*******************************************************************************************************************

The incredible tactics that turned rugby league’s 1991 player draft into a farce​

WHILE the enduring memory of rugby league’s 1991 draft is the Terry Hill court battle that confined it to history, plenty of other storylines made it an absolute farce.

Deals were done behind closed doors leading into draft day, moves were organised in clandestine meetings and players named their price, with cases of reserve graders nominating for the same salary as Test stars.

The Hill ruling has separated rugby league from a draft system ever since, taking the code on a very different path to the AFL for which draft day is one of the biggest and most important days in the calendar.

Here’s a look at what made rugby league’s one and only version a forgettable sham.

Players refuse to go

The 1991 draft was doomed from the outset because most of the players were never on board and had no intention of playing for anyone but a club of their choosing.

An internal draft had been set up to accommodate out of contract stars who were keen to go elsewhere to get their market value.

But instead of going where they were told based on which club had what pick in the draft, star players threatened to refuse to play and deals were worked out behind closed doors.

Not one club tested the system by pressing a draft claim for a reluctant player.

“What’s the point of going to $100,000 for a top liner when he’ll refuse to play for you,” a prominent coach was quoted by a Rugby League Week article penned by Tony Megahey at the time.

While one player reportedly said he would be “injured a lot” if forced to play against his wishes.

The great Axe heist

Not too much got by coaching legend Jack Gibson but the man who would later take his mantle as the greatest, Wayne Bennett, had his number with arguably the most audacious manoeuvre of the draft.

Gillmeister was off-contract, allowing him to nominate for the internal draft if he wished to go to a club other than Easts, who he’d spent five seasons with.

However, even on draft day Easts had no clue The Axe had cooked up a plan behind closed doors to ensure a move to the Broncos.
Up until the last minute, Gillmeister didn’t nominate and Easts were convinced he was staying. Then all of a sudden it registered with club officials that their prized forward had been snapped up as Brisbane’s first draft choice.

“It’s a joke, Gillmeister was added to the list 10 minutes before the draft went off,” an Easts official told Rugby League Week.

“I didn’t even know he was listed,” Gibson said afterwards. “ ... I spoke to Wayne Bennett about them sniffing around Gillmeister but he said they were only mildly interested.”

Player currency goes crazy

You know something’s not quite right with the system when reserve grade players are taken up in the draft for the same money as Test stars.

According to a Rugby League Week article at the time “one representative player switched clubs for a bargain figure, but with ‘removalist costs’ listed among his remuneration requirements.”

You also had Bruce McGuire, who wasn’t picked for a 28-man Kangaroo tour rated at $130,000 by Canterbury — putting him in the same class as the best of the best of the time, including Peter Sterling, Mal Meninga and Ellery Hanley.


“ Some lower profile players and a reserve grader, Wayne Collins, were drafted for the same money ($100,000) as current international David Gillespie,” the RLW report said.

Souths star Les Davidson initially put up an asking price of $100,000 but dropped it by 25 per cent to ensure he landed at his desired club, Cronulla, so eager was he to remove himself from the Rabbitohs.

In short, players were doing whatever they needed to do to get to their preferred destination and clubs were putting ludicrous values on players to ensure they wouldn’t be going anywhere.

The salary cap, which was tight for most clubs, got turned upside down in the process.

Clubs planned for bargains

The likes of Manly and Balmain barely played a part in the first draft, using a clever strategy that they knew would give them the best shot at getting draft bargains the next time around.

The draft was set up to run on a series of different dates, the first of which was in November 1990, with the second draft day scheduled for January 1991.

Players who were keen on moves were told by certain clubs to stay out of the first draft before nominating for the second, just about eliminating as market players the clubs who had gone all in on the first draft day.

The other factor was that players who were passed over in the first draft (a whopping 92 players fit into this category) were forced to drop their asking price for the second draft or risk finding themselves clubless.

When the second draft day arrived, clubs like the Sea Eagles and Tigers who had kept their powder dry on day one were perfectly poised to pick up a bargain, while clubs that had spent on the first draft day would not have the salary cap space to go again.

“The value is on the second draft. There will be a lot of footballers going cheap,” Bulldogs committeeman and accountant Tim Pickup told Rugby League Week at the time.

THE DRAFT ORDER IN THE 1991 DRAFT

1. Souths

2. Gold Coast

3. Easts

4. Wests

5. St George

6. Norths

7. Cronulla

8. Illawarra

9. Parramatta

10. Canterbury

11. Newcastle

12. Balmain

13. Manly

14. Penrith

15. Brisbane

16. Canberra

 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,393
I think with the draft, you have to have a culture of that coming through from high schools/universities, as the US does. It's ingrained into them, there's really no questioning it as it's always been that way.

It just wouldn't work in the NRL. Imagine being a Sydney kid, the next Sam Walker or Joseph Suaalii whoever, who is coming through as the next big thing...and the Raiders win the wooden spoon, and you're told you have to go there. Or NZ, Wests, whoever. Or hell, we're going to PNG soon - off to Port Moresby you go!
 

Beavers Headgear

First Grade
Messages
9,922
I think with the draft, you have to have a culture of that coming through from high schools/universities, as the US does. It's ingrained into them, there's really no questioning it as it's always been that way.

It just wouldn't work in the NRL. Imagine being a Sydney kid, the next Sam Walker or Joseph Suaalii whoever, who is coming through as the next big thing...and the Raiders win the wooden spoon, and you're told you have to go there. Or NZ, Wests, whoever. Or hell, we're going to PNG soon - off to Port Moresby you go!
Yep 100% agree, we have a game built on tribalism, and fans get to watch a kid signed at 15-16 years old come through all the grades and get some excitement watching them come through and some hope for the future

We have seen how the players act currently, i can’t imagine how much worse it would be if they said they wanted to leave a club so we’re just put into a pool and entered into a draft.

“With Pick 1, PNG select Addin Fonua-Blake”

that would run smoothly …
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,393
Haha exactly. Our pathways are club/grades-based, theirs are colleges where the students are already going off to a different part of the country to play.

To me, the salary cap does the best job it can. Trouble is when you want to expand to 20 teams and create new markets, more fixtures and maximise revenue, it means you either dilute the pool of talent or you have to hope you can create 90 more (3x 30-man squad) players to fill the squads for Perth, PNG and Christchurch. Christchurch is actually best set-up to bring in new talent from union/juniors in NZ, Perth is going to have to raid other clubs and PNG I presume will start slow, prop up the table and look to improve over a longer period of time. It's an interesting one if they are going to PNG in 2028 as rumoured, there are clearly more obvious markets to target in a purely financial way.

The thing they need to improve on the most to be able to make the comp as even as possible is quality of coaching. We all know why the same teams dominate, and it's the coaches, who influence the culture.
 
Messages
731
It's an interesting one if they are going to PNG in 2028 as rumoured, there are clearly more obvious markets to target in a purely financial way.
Ha yea, amazing what a 600m govt. sweetener will do. I'm fascinated to see how they're going to attract players TBH (with respect to them). The so-called NRL city they plan on building will start to feel very small very quickly.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,393
Ha yea, amazing what a 600m govt. sweetener will do. I'm fascinated to see how they're going to attract players TBH (with respect to them). The so-called NRL city they plan on building will start to feel very small very quickly.
Absolutely man, that's why I say they'll start slow and undoubtedly be whipping boys for a fair while until they (if they) develop NRL quality players. I dunno, I hope it happens, PNG are league mad. But as you say, they'll struggle to attract overseas players, does the investment keep coming if things don't go at all well for an extended time? Who wants to coach there, or work there?
 

Blair

Coach
Messages
11,128
Absolutely man, that's why I say they'll start slow and undoubtedly be whipping boys for a fair while until they (if they) develop NRL quality players. I dunno, I hope it happens, PNG are league mad. But as you say, they'll struggle to attract overseas players, does the investment keep coming if things don't go at all well for an extended time? Who wants to coach there, or work there?
Could you imagine the Sydney wives and girlfriends - with the kids - after the first shopping centre-razing riot?

Or any foreign wife or girlfriend for that matter.
 

Beavers Headgear

First Grade
Messages
9,922
Absolutely man, that's why I say they'll start slow and undoubtedly be whipping boys for a fair while until they (if they) develop NRL quality players. I dunno, I hope it happens, PNG are league mad. But as you say, they'll struggle to attract overseas players, does the investment keep coming if things don't go at all well for an extended time? Who wants to coach there, or work there?
Maybe they can set up the PNG team the way Australia was set up

“Lodgey, you want to play NRL, head to PNG”

“Josh, we will overlook your cocaine test, enjoy Port Moresby”

“Trell, looks like you were leaning over that table looking at an air ticket to PNG”
 

Beavers Headgear

First Grade
Messages
9,922
Who are we thinking gives Penrith more trouble next week, Cowboys or Sharks ?

Sharks more capable of getting into a grind, but probably don’t have the attack in them that’s required. On the other hand Cowboys forward pack is immense, and they can throw so much attack at them, but their defence is flimsy, 34 tackles in the first half last week won’t cut it against Penrith

Love listening to Gus Gould and the way he has of explaining things, was listening to 6 tackles with Gus yesterday and when discussing Hynes, he talked about Shane Warne. Warne had every trick in his bag, but if the pitch or conditions weren’t to his liking, he would just send his standard leggie down ball after ball and create pressure with it. Hynes needs to develop his leggie, has all the tricks but needs to drop into a simple game instead of trying to use them all the time
 

Beavers Headgear

First Grade
Messages
9,922
Don’t like this start from the Sharks. Backs running sideways out of yardage and at one point on the 1sr or 2nd tackle Hynes stood there at dummy half and had no ball runners at all
 

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