NRL intervention?

[Tigerm]

Are you serious?
Siebold for starters ..Manly are top of the table.
Flanagan
Payton before he went to the warriors
The list goes on..
But no after being terrified of pushing for an experienced and proven coach they went for Benji…wake up and stop backing these fools..
Like the man said they took this whole proposal to the board

What’s Sheens, I like many here don’t rate him, but he does have an impressive 650 game resume?
The board didn’t agree with the crowd, I wonder what they are thinking now?

Did any of them apply?
Pretty sure Flanagan was mentioned, but pulled out?
Payton, are you serious, he went to Warriors when we had Madge, not sure he was an option, his wife’s family are from Townsville.
Siebold, maybe, but Sheens would have got the nod over him, everyday of week, besides would he want to follow Madge again?

“Manly are on top of the table“, it’s R3 FFS, there’s a long way to go. Let’s see how they go if Turbo goes down.

TBH, Hasler would have been my pick?

 

[WA Tiger]

What’s Sheens, I like many here don’t rate him, but he does have an impressive 650 game resume?
The board didn’t agree with the crowd, I wonder what they are thinking now?

Did any of them apply?
Pretty sure Flanagan was mentioned, but pulled out?
Payton, are you serious, he went to Warriors when we had Madge, not sure he was an option, his wife’s family are from Townsville.
Siebold, maybe, but Sheens would have got the nod over him, everyday of week, besides would he want to follow Madge again?

“Manly are on top of the table“, it’s R3 FFS, there’s a long way to go. Let’s see how they go if Turbo goes down.

TBH, Hasler would have been my pick?

Your talking through through a hole in your arse

 

[Tigerm]

Your talking through through a hole in your arse

What a great uneducated response from a lightweight stargazer.

Did you think of that yourself or copy it from a book.

 

[Exsilium]

You could have any coach there and it would likely net the same result. It starts at the top and filters down.

 

[Tigerm]

You could have any coach there and it would likely net the same result. It starts at the top and filters down.

Yeah, but it just reminds of the days when Sheens last coached here, trying to re-invent players into different positions and expect great results.

Its a shit start, but too early for an exorcism.

 

[gordsy]

As well as expanding the comp to 20 teams, the nrl should look at helping the clubs run by cripples, like ours.

 

[Exsilium]

Yeah, but it just reminds of the days when Sheens last coached here, trying to re-invent players into different positions and expect great results.

Its a shit start, but too early for an exorcism.

Change takes time. Two games is hardly a measure of season performance.

Bateman should add some starch, combo's should improve but my only caveat would be that Brooks needs a deadline. Say Round 8.

 

[stryker]

I really laugh when people say Pascoe is doing a great job financially.
I run my own business. Imagine I came back after the Chrissie holidays and some magical fairy paid for my entire year’s wages, salaries and entitlements upfront. Pressure off, everyone’s getting paid. Now I have to make some money to keep the doors open and potentially grow the business…but wait, that magical fairy has also given me a couple of million for running costs. Additionally, sponsors are tipping in contributions, thousands of people are paying membership fees which is high profit for me, merchandise is flying off the shelf with similar money for jam turnover…
Hows the bank account looking? Full? Ah good shit. Now let’s start the year….

 

[Fordy20]

Is it time for Rugby League Central to dismiss the Tigers board/executives and take over the running of the club? The comments made by Lee Hagipantelis yesterday once again show that the board is catastrophically out of touch and cares more about running the club as a business than as a successful football side.

We have one of the larger fan bases of the Sydney clubs and we are continually treated with contempt by the board and CEO. Obviously NRL intervention will not have an immediate impact on player performances but it's clear that the culture at the club is rotten to the core and it's impossible to see us playing finals in the foreseeable future.

Thoughts?

Why wouldn't the board hold the fan base in contempt? People still turn up to buy tickets and still tune in to watch matches despite the fact the club has only had 2 brief years of success in it's entire existence. People still pay for "membership" despite the fact it doesn't give you voting rights or the ability to stand for the board. Without the ability of members to vote or stand for the board, there is no way for the fan base to demonstrate it's displeasure with the board without removing their support for the club.

The NRL could try and establish some accountability by threatening to revoke their rights to the Wests Tigers brand or remove club funding unless members were given voting rights, but why would they? The club still fields a football team, members are still buying tickets, merch and memberships, people are still turning up to watch them on game day or on TV and nobody is taking any proactive measures apart from some f**kwit who was too stupid to keep his shit together at a club function.

For mine, if people want change, they are going to have to do more than waiting around expecting Vlandaddy to come to the rescue. The fans are going to have organise themselves, ensure they all have Holman Barnes Group memberships in addition to their Wests Tigers memberships and strap themselves in for a sustained political campaign of four to five years at the very least in order to replace the old guard. Who knows? Maybe those dinosaurs and their lackeys are just waiting for some passionate people of quality to stand up so they can step aside?

 

[TheDefinitionOfMadness]

How exactly do our board members get voted in / out Fordy? I know we're different to other clubs but don't know a lot about it. And is there any mechanism within the club charter / constitution to change the set up to one where members can hold the board accountable? That's if we have a club charter, which I'm tipping we probably don't.

Any info would be appreciated. It sounds like you know a fair bit about the issue.

 

[Fordy20]

How exactly do our board members get voted in / out Fordy? I know we're different to other clubs but don't know a lot about it. And is there any mechanism within the club charter / constitution to change the set up to one where members can hold the board accountable? That's if we have a club charter, which I'm tipping we probably don't.

Any info would be appreciated. It sounds like you know a fair bit about the issue.

I'd be tipping that there would be a constitution. Private companies can use the replaceable rules from the Corporation Act, but any changes to that need to be documented in a constitution. Good luck getting a hold of that,

There is some really great information on the Wests Magpies website about how the boards of Wests Tigers Pty Ltd, Magpies FC and Wests Ashfield League's Club are constituted. You can read about it here: https://www.westsmagpies.com.au/the-club/teams-boards-ownership/

But what it boils down to is that there are 20 debenture holders for Wests Ashfield Leagues group (now called Holman Barnes Group) that effectively control everything.

For the HBG board, there are 7 positions, 5 of which are appointed by and from the 20 debenture holders. 2 positions can be directly elected by members of HBG. Those members are people who have had Wests Ashfield Leagues Club or HBG membership for 3 years or more.

For the Magpies FC board, there are 7 positions, 4 which are appointed by HBG board and 3 positions which can be directly elected by members of Magpies FC. Those members are people who have had Magpies FC membership for 3 years or more.

For the Wests Tigers board, there are 8 positions, 4 which are appointed by HBG, 1 director appointed by Magpies FC and Balmain Tigers RLFC respectively and 2 independent directors, who are appointed by the board of Wests Tigers Pty Ltd.

So by virtue of their majority on all 3 boards, the 20 Wests Ashfield Leagues group debenture holders are responsible for all the decisions made regarding Wests Tigers and due to the way the Wests Tigers board is constituted, there is no way to boot them off or otherwise hold them accountable. Also, a change to the way the board is constituted or appointed would require the consent of the current board, so there is no way to force that change either.

There's a great little opinion piece on the Wests Tigers Podcast website called "Democracy lost: Wests Tigers fans now have NO say" by Joel Helmes that really sums up the issue well. Definutely worth a read.

Personally, I think there are two ways for change to happen, one the NRL steps in and pressures the club into change or the debenture holders are convinced to do so without pressure from the NRL. Either option would require massive community support and at the moment, I just don't see that eventuating.

If you wanted to build that support, finding people like Joel and getting them onboard would be a good start.

 

[Tigerm]

I'd be tipping that there would be a constitution. Private companies can use the replaceable rules from the Corporation Act, but any changes to that need to be documented in a constitution. Good luck getting a hold of that,

There is some really great information on the Wests Magpies website about how the boards of Wests Tigers Pty Ltd, Magpies FC and Wests Ashfield League's Club are constituted. You can read about it here: https://www.westsmagpies.com.au/the-club/teams-boards-ownership/

But what it boils down to is that there are 20 debenture holders for Wests Ashfield Leagues group (now called Holman Barnes Group) that effectively control everything.

For the HBG board, there are 7 positions, 5 of which are appointed by and from the 20 debenture holders. 2 positions can be directly elected by members of HBG. Those members are people who have had Wests Ashfield Leagues Club or HBG membership for 3 years or more.

For the Magpies FC board, there are 7 positions, 4 which are appointed by HBG board and 3 positions which can be directly elected by members of Magpies FC. Those members are people who have had Magpies FC membership for 3 years or more.

For the Wests Tigers board, there are 8 positions, 4 which are appointed by HBG, 1 director appointed by Magpies FC and Balmain Tigers RLFC respectively and 2 independent directors, who are appointed by the board of Wests Tigers Pty Ltd.

So by virtue of their majority on all 3 boards, the 20 Wests Ashfield Leagues group debenture holders are responsible for all the decisions made regarding Wests Tigers and due to the way the Wests Tigers board is constituted, there is no way to boot them off or otherwise hold them accountable. Also, a change to the way the board is constituted or appointed would require the consent of the current board, so there is no way to force that change either.

There's a great little opinion piece on the Wests Tigers Podcast website called "Democracy lost: Wests Tigers fans now have NO say" by Joel Helmes that really sums up the issue well. Definutely worth a read.

Personally, I think there are two ways for change to happen, one the NRL steps in and pressures the club into change or the debenture holders are convinced to do so without pressure from the NRL. Either option would require massive community support and at the moment, I just don't see that eventuating.

If you wanted to build that support, finding people like Joel and getting them onboard would be a good start.

Good read, cheers @Fordy20

I guess if we were winning none of this would be an issue?

 

[TheDefinitionOfMadness]

Thanks fordy. That's illuminating and disturbing all at the same time

 

[Nutz]

It's almost impossible for any club not to be profitable in 2023. The NRL gives each club the exact amount of the salary cap every year to pay the players in the top 30. On top of that they provide another 3 to 4 million to each club annually as a grant to assist in running the club. This was designed to stop clubs going broke and running cap in hand to the NRL asking for a 'loan' to keep them afloat. We have done this, as have saints and the sharks to name a few.
Then it just depends on sponsorship and membership money, gate takings, and how much money you can get in merch, against what you're willing to spend on admin and junior development.
Some of the management decisions I have an issue with:
1. Building the centre of excellence at Concord rather than SW Sydney. It should be clear that our junior development and identity should be focused in this area. Not saying we abandon the inner city area, just focus more heavily in SW Sydney.
2. Not having 1 home ground. Multiple home grounds were needed at the start of the merger but a decision needed to be made at least 15 years ago about our location. Again, we could have focused on SW Sydney and would have most likely been able to leverage the govt into at least partially paying for a new home ground there. It's clear this is very unlikely to happen at LO anytime in the short to mid term. A lot of people will say we don't draw crowds in SW Sydney, but I think the reason for this is we haven't even tried.
3. Because of the above we haven't been able to establish any real identity. This hasn't helped in attracting players over the years.
4. Hanging onto the past. Watching the tigers win the comp was one of the best 6 month periods of my life. However, the path to future success does not lay in what happened 18 years ago. Constantly going back to the well isn't going to produce the same result.
5. Inviting TV cameras into a club that was clearly going to struggle, for all to see the deficiencies. That was an embarrassment. It was clear it was going to look bad and it did.

There's nothing wrong with recognising the past, and having the former emblems on the back of the jersey, maybe have 1 game at LO a year, but we need to let go of the past to have a productive future. BTW I come from the Balmain side of the merger if you thought I was an embittered Maggie.

Just my 2 cents worth anyway.

Response to...
#1. $16.7 million in funding has been approved for Campbelltown City Council to construct a new Sport and Health Centre of Excellence at Leumeah.
Has anyone heard of an update??? Anyway well done Pascoe if he fought for this under his watch.
#2 Next year there is home games spread over LO and CS.
I would totally support a move south if it meant that we became 1 club. By that I mean going the full hog, make NRL, COE and Flegg all Wests Tigers teams and after the completion of a new COE there as well as a modern rebuild of CS.
Possible making Canberra v Wests a local derby(sort off)
#5 I agree that those stupid TV series was the beginning of the end of Pascoe for me, stupid, dumb media debacles.
However the oposite to this is former Wests player Chris Warren who hosts the BTR. Outstanding stuff.
It wasn't that long ago that several forum members were defending the board but that small amount of faith was eroded by stuff ups that weren't defendable.
We now have a new Chairman, Ceo, Coaches and support staff and a totally new board (well sort if you ignore their double dipping)
We should be able to concentrate on supporting the team now and not listen to the noise.
Block out all the crap coming our way from the other forums, our colleagues and the public and try to enjoy the footy.
I've bought a big new tv, sound system and jason recliner, hopefully it's a great investment for the coming seasons.

 

[macnaz]

@Fordy20 Can you or anyone else explain this whole debenture holder thing ? My understanding a debenture holder has contributed financially in some fashion to the club. But id really like some clarity as to how much and when , West Ashfield have always been very sound financially even before they under went rebuilding the club , so when and why did said people contribute money ? Seems as an outsider looking in it was just a way of buying into a scheme to be a untouchable board member for ever.
What is even more intriguing is that some of these debenture holders dont exactly seem like rich high flyers with cash to throw around... 1 i know of stinks of family relationships, connections and its as tho he/they were offered the life time gravy train deal due to nepotism and not because of any wealthy business background

 

[Das Hassler]

Just looked it up....if this helps. There are quite a few references...they all cite lending money to an organization...not giving from what I could see


Meaning of debenture holder in English
debenture holder. Add to word list Add to word list. FINANCE. a person or company that has lent money to another person or company by using a debenture: Payment of interest is made to the debenture holder at a specified rate and at clearly defined intervals.

 

[macnaz]

Thanks Das , i guess that is what i meant to say as in give /loan /lend . As i said the list of debenture holders doesn't t seem to be anyone particularly rich or powerful so what was their actual contribution ? My opinion it seems like a invite family and freinds rort to ride the train for as long as you want .

 

[Das Hassler]

Could well be....I don't know much at all about any of that...perhaps the amounts involved aren't as much as might be imagined. My Dad was one of a couple of dozen who lent 10k each to a soccer club's licensed premises when they were doing it tough...could be something similar with money lent to Wests that goes back to the 90's...or earlier ? just guessing with no actual clue

 

[gordsy]

Maybe a way to legally launder money. Could also be to protect from leagal issues ie he company holds the debenture so if it all goes to shit then the company gets the blame but not the board members.
But I will bet London to a brick something doesn't pass the pub test.

 

[Fordy20]

@Fordy20 Can you or anyone else explain this whole debenture holder thing ? My understanding a debenture holder has contributed financially in some fashion to the club. But id really like some clarity as to how much and when , West Ashfield have always been very sound financially even before they under went rebuilding the club , so when and why did said people contribute money ? Seems as an outsider looking in it was just a way of buying into a scheme to be a untouchable board member for ever.
What is even more intriguing is that some of these debenture holders dont exactly seem like rich high flyers with cash to throw around... 1 i know of stinks of family relationships, connections and its as tho he/they were offered the life time gravy train deal due to nepotism and not because of any wealthy business background

Your understanding is correct, but getting the information you want clarified might take some digging. Documents available on ASIC Connect only go back to 1990 (https://connectonline.asic.gov.au/R...Type=OrgAndBusNm&_adf.ctrl-state=tby3r33it_81) and although you can view the latest Annual Report online, you'd need the financial reports from the last 60-70 years in order to determine how much was contributed and when.

Although, if you were a Western Suburbs Leagues Club member, you could simply submit a financial query to the General Manager in writing. The Bylaws ask for 14 days notice ahead of an AGM, but honestly if you were going to go to the trouble of submitting a financial query to the GM, it would be far more interesting to see what the loan terms and loan agreements are for the debentures. Then we would know who each of the current debenture holders are and how much of the financial costs are interest payments to the holders.

To be honest, it's not even about money for me, especially when you consider it's entirely possible that the holders don't get director fees or payments for debentures. The real problem is the amount of power and control the Club Constitution gives them. In way, it makes perfect sense for the holders to have that control, after all, if you'd lent someone a shedload of cash, you want to make sure they were in a position to both make the interest payments and repay the principle.

But looking at the Annual Report, there are $2000 of Financial Liabilities outstanding as Debenture loans for the most recent financial year. To me, this makes it seem like a nominal loan amount is carried forward on the books indefinitely, just so that a small cadre of people can maintain complete control over not only West Ashfield, but also Magpies FC and West Tigers FC.