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NRL2

siv

First Grade
Messages
5,541
Marketingwise - this should just be the Qld Cup and NSW Cups

With 14 teams each

But with NRL clubs having RG, thus no NRL clubs in these comps

Qld Cup would add Perth & Darwin

NSW Cup would add NSW Country divisions and Adelaide
 
Messages
12,230
I think it's a very good idea, and it would make great improvement in players, and more importantly, coaches. It would work wonders in advancement to the NRL.
I personally would watch these games on the TV for sure. The players would love to be on TV, even if it is a 2nd tier comp.
I get the idea of no affiliation with NRL clubs, what about NRL clubs having players on loan to this league?
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
5,588
Marketingwise - this should just be the Qld Cup and NSW Cups

With 14 teams each

But with NRL clubs having RG, thus no NRL clubs in these comps

Qld Cup would add Perth & Darwin

NSW Cup would add NSW Country divisions and Adelaide
On what planet would effectively third tier competitions with no exposure or mainstream coverage, inhabited mainly by small bush teams filled with mainly park footy level players, be sustainable even just as state wide leagues?!

Most of the clubs would rack up huge debits and collapse within a few seasons, which would effectively kill the league and further weaken the NSWRL and QRL and their ability to run grassroots footy in both states.

In other words all you'd achieve by doing what you suggest would be to give the NRL clubs even more control over the sport by effectively amalgamating the second tier (and all pathways associated) under their exclusive control, which not only would destroy any hope of building any sort of significant club competition independent of the Telstra Premiership, but would almost certainly be the final nail in the coffin of most grassroots and junior develop in most regions outside of the clubs direct markets.
 

Diesel

Coach
Messages
16,629
Why not have NSW/QLD Cup as separate competitions but combine for finals. Top 5 from each competition play off. Not every finals game would be QLD v NSW ir it could be a separate top 10 competition if the other two comps had shortened seasons (NSW/QLD cup run March-July inc GF) combined top 10 runs August to October)
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
5,541
On what planet would effectively third tier competitions with no exposure or mainstream coverage, inhabited mainly by small bush teams filled with mainly park footy level players, be sustainable even just as state wide leagues?!

Most of the clubs would rack up huge debits and collapse within a few seasons, which would effectively kill the league and further weaken the NSWRL and QRL and their ability to run grassroots footy in both states.

In other words all you'd achieve by doing what you suggest would be to give the NRL clubs even more control over the sport by effectively amalgamating the second tier (and all pathways associated) under their exclusive control, which not only would destroy any hope of building any sort of significant club competition independent of the Telstra Premiership, but would almost certainly be the final nail in the coffin of most grassroots and junior develop in most regions outside of the clubs direct markets.
So why hasnt the Qld Cup which only uses 0 to 4 NRL players and operates in the manner suggested above not fallen over in the manner you suggest?

90% of those fans aren't turning up to watch a handful of NRL players

Or has the Cairns A grade died after the Northern Pride was setup?
 

Santino Patane

Juniors
Messages
162
It wouldn’t stop talent emerging in nrl2 and being signed by nrl clubs. just not in a feeder system.

The problem is more in convincing nrl clubs they need to run and pay for reserve grade! There seems to be an agreement that since scraping the under 20’s it has had a negative impact on development of players. Maybe a compromise is for nrl clubs to run a reserve grade side of under 23’s but can have up to 5 overage players in the side?
To clarify, in your model, NRL2 teams are not tied to any NRL teams, correct? If so, where does all the junior development talent go to grow into the game beyond junior comps? If it’s a reserve grade, what does this achieve other than creating another layer (therefore cost and competition) in a market that couldn’t sustain it?

What incentive would NRL teams have to release their development squads (which are usually picked up around the ages of 13-17 now and the net is cast as wide as possible to find the players) to clubs they have no arrangement with? If the NRL clubs (rightfully) keep their talent in house within their own systems to maintain their own business culture, where would NRL2 source their talent from?

I don’t think there’s wide agreement that the loss of under 20’s negatively impacted development, there’s a school of thought that suggests that players have developed more without it, playing with grown men in a comp that isn’t light on defence. I think under 20’s socialised player development, and now clubs that have invested in Player Development are the ones benefiting (eg Penrith are smashing it, whilst Brisbane are lagging due to taking their eye off development since under 20’s).

Again, I like your idea and wish we could have something like it in full force (I’m a fan of Qld Cup and enjoy supporting a team from both comps) but I just don’t see how it can practically work in the real world.
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
5,541
Here is my take on this

In Sydney NRL clubs represent a region/dustrict from juniors all the way through to FG

Regional clubs again represent a region and operate in a similar manner

Areas they dont they fit that model have tried to become feeder clubs, but still represent a region

Bar Newtown which never re-established its junior district structure, all teams that could be NRL2 clubs have a FG U21 U19 U17 alignment and sometimes RG also, beside the NRL structures(except for Broncos & Titans)

Players who are in the Part-time pathways of NRL2 have already started down the path away from NRL Professional pathway. But nothing stops players moving between pathways

Parramatta is the most effected NRL club by NRL2, and we know they can RG U21 U19 U17 beside Wenty, Blacktown, Cabramatta today

But what the process does introduce once NRL RG is setup beside NSW Cup/Qld Cup is the potential for promotion relegation

Where immediate tier 2 interest is created

But how I recommend it runs, us as follows

Winners NSW Cup, Qld Cup, NZ Cup and NRL Wooden Spooners, play in a 3 round robin series at the Wooden Spooners home ground in parrallel to the finals series

This then creates "hope" for tier 2 clubs and fans and a ready made TV product to sell

Where the 18th team is the winner of one of these series
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
48,603
To clarify, in your model, NRL2 teams are not tied to any NRL teams, correct? If so, where does all the junior development talent go to grow into the game beyond junior comps? If it’s a reserve grade, what does this achieve other than creating another layer (therefore cost and competition) in a market that couldn’t sustain it?

What incentive would NRL teams have to release their development squads (which are usually picked up around the ages of 13-17 now and the net is cast as wide as possible to find the players) to clubs they have no arrangement with? If the NRL clubs (rightfully) keep their talent in house within their own systems to maintain their own business culture, where would NRL2 source their talent from?

I don’t think there’s wide agreement that the loss of under 20’s negatively impacted development, there’s a school of thought that suggests that players have developed more without it, playing with grown men in a comp that isn’t light on defence. I think under 20’s socialised player development, and now clubs that have invested in Player Development are the ones benefiting (eg Penrith are smashing it, whilst Brisbane are lagging due to taking their eye off development since under 20’s).

Again, I like your idea and wish we could have something like it in full force (I’m a fan of Qld Cup and enjoy supporting a team from both comps) but I just don’t see how it can practically work in the real world.
There are hundreds of thousands of people playing rl in the southern and northern hemispheres. There is plenty enough talent in the world to furnish 750 nrl1 plus reserve grade, and 400 or so nrl2 players.

nrl1
nrl1 reserve grade U23’s plus x amount of overage fringe or returning players
nrl1 U18’s (state based)

nrl2

nsw cup and qlnd cup

state/national (nz and png)comps

that would be the ideal structure Imo for a game that generates as much revenue as rugby league does in this country.
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
48,603
I have no idea why people insist on the NRL clubs being in control of juniors. I want them nowhere near them.
They should pick the best ones up from the grassroots programs at 16-17 and develop them from there.
The only reason they are is because of the historic leagues club model. No pokies and I can guarantee nrl clubs wouldn’t be running anything u16!
 

Santino Patane

Juniors
Messages
162
There are hundreds of thousands of people playing rl in the southern and northern hemispheres. There is plenty enough talent in the world to furnish 750 nrl1 plus reserve grade, and 400 or so nrl2 players.

nrl1
nrl1 reserve grade U23’s plus x amount of overage fringe or returning players
nrl1 U18’s (state based)

nrl2

nsw cup and qlnd cup

state/national (nz and png)comps

that would be the ideal structure Imo for a game that generates as much revenue as rugby league does in this country.
Of these hundreds and thousands of players worldwide, how many have the potential to play at a professional level (let alone “elite level”)? My answer is, not enough to fill additional levels of competition. If there was a need for an additional competition, the market would have already created one, or at least had a stronger push than just some random forum post.

Unfortunately, there isn’t a lot of potential players out there ready to create multiple successful clubs. Anyone who has ever had to build and foster talent development at a professional level will be able to tell you that it takes far more than the final talent to build the required pool of potentials. For every success, there’s an order of magnitude more people unsuccessful.

Sustainable growth in Rugby League can only happen purposefully and gradually. The reality of the sport is that it’s a very small fish in a very big pond. It does have potential to be much bigger, but it’s not realistic to think it could happen overnight.
 

Santino Patane

Juniors
Messages
162
I have no idea why people insist on the NRL clubs being in control of juniors. I want them nowhere near them.
I disagree. I see what my club are doing with juniors on the Goldie and I couldn’t think of any other sporting body doing a better job. Very high level and broad support of junior development, on and off the field.
 

TGG

Juniors
Messages
63
Here is my take on this

In Sydney NRL clubs represent a region/dustrict from juniors all the way through to FG

Regional clubs again represent a region and operate in a similar manner

Areas they dont they fit that model have tried to become feeder clubs, but still represent a region

Bar Newtown which never re-established its junior district structure, all teams that could be NRL2 clubs have a FG U21 U19 U17 alignment and sometimes RG also, beside the NRL structures(except for Broncos & Titans)

Players who are in the Part-time pathways of NRL2 have already started down the path away from NRL Professional pathway. But nothing stops players moving between pathways

Parramatta is the most effected NRL club by NRL2, and we know they can RG U21 U19 U17 beside Wenty, Blacktown, Cabramatta today

But what the process does introduce once NRL RG is setup beside NSW Cup/Qld Cup is the potential for promotion relegation

Where immediate tier 2 interest is created

But how I recommend it runs, us as follows

Winners NSW Cup, Qld Cup, NZ Cup and NRL Wooden Spooners, play in a 3 round robin series at the Wooden Spooners home ground in parrallel to the finals series

This then creates "hope" for tier 2 clubs and fans and a ready made TV product to sell

Now by “NZ Cup” are you referring to the NZRL Premiership or the NZRL Championship?
 
Messages
5,810
Of these hundreds and thousands of players worldwide, how many have the potential to play at a professional level (let alone “elite level”)? My answer is, not enough to fill additional levels of competition. If there was a need for an additional competition, the market would have already created one, or at least had a stronger push than just some random forum post.

Unfortunately, there isn’t a lot of potential players out there ready to create multiple successful clubs. Anyone who has ever had to build and foster talent development at a professional level will be able to tell you that it takes far more than the final talent to build the required pool of potentials. For every success, there’s an order of magnitude more people unsuccessful.

Sustainable growth in Rugby League can only happen purposefully and gradually. The reality of the sport is that it’s a very small fish in a very big pond. It does have potential to be much bigger, but it’s not realistic to think it could happen overnight.
I reckon somatotype plays a role in determining how accessible a sport is to the public and goes a long way to explaining why soccer is so global.

The three basic somatotypes are endomorphs, mesomorphs and ectomorphs.

Endomorphs have short limbs, thick long trunks, a propensity to store fat around the abdomen and a rounded body with the ability to build muscle. Mesomorphs gain muscle very quickly but do not store body fat in large quantities, are broad shouldered with thin waists and, have a short trunk with a very small chest cavity. Ectomorphs have a short trunk with thin shoulders and small waist, long limbs, struggle to build muscle and do not store much body fat.

East Asians are the most endomorphic people. West and central Africans are the most mesomorphic. East Africans are the most ectoomorphic. Europeans possess a mixture of mesomorphic and endomorphic traits, but are usually taller than mesomorphs and are more on the endomorphic side of the scale.

Mesomorphs struggle in swimming as they have denser bones to support their greater muscle mass and smaller lungs with broad shoulders that create drag, but are excellent at sports that require agility, speed and short bursts of power. It's why West and Central Africans dominant short distance running, basketball, gridiron and hold the world records in jumping events. This bodytype is not good at weightlifting because it has very long limbs and a high ratio of fast twitch muscle fibres. Endomorphs are most successful at weightlighting as their shorter limbs, combined with more slow twitch muscle fibres, place less stress on their joints and muscles. Most weightlifting champions come from East Asia and Eastern Europe.

Rugby league requires an endomorphic mesomorph somatotype.


This rules out most East Asians, a large considerable amount of Caucasians and Africans. Polynesians are probably best equipped to play this game, as years travelling from island to island on rafts and going to war with other tribes over the limited landmass across the Pacific forced them to have the ability to store bodyfat, but they also needed mesomorphic traits, such as the ability to gain muscle quickly.

Soccer players tend to be more endomorphic, which is the most common somatotype across the world.

There's a really good video on this subject on YouTube.

 

siv

First Grade
Messages
5,541
Its probably something like the Ql
Now by “NZ Cup” are you referring to the NZRL Premiership or the NZRL Championship?
It would be something like the Qld Cup model

Auckland A grade clubs with regional provisional teams
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
48,603
Of these hundreds and thousands of players worldwide, how many have the potential to play at a professional level (let alone “elite level”)? My answer is, not enough to fill additional levels of competition. If there was a need for an additional competition, the market would have already created one, or at least had a stronger push than just some random forum post.

Unfortunately, there isn’t a lot of potential players out there ready to create multiple successful clubs. Anyone who has ever had to build and foster talent development at a professional level will be able to tell you that it takes far more than the final talent to build the required pool of potentials. For every success, there’s an order of magnitude more people unsuccessful.

Sustainable growth in Rugby League can only happen purposefully and gradually. The reality of the sport is that it’s a very small fish in a very big pond. It does have potential to be much bigger, but it’s not realistic to think it could happen overnight.
That's kind of a self defeating prophecy. We only have two FT professional divisions in the world, there's undoubtedly talent to create a third out there. Also marketing driving it, well not really, the powers that be drive these things not market. Yes it wont be as strong as NRL or SL, but it doesn't need to be. Its not there to compete with NRL but to supplement it now we are getting to the point where the NRL is highly unlikely to expand beyond its current size and yet we have developing or continuing markets unserviced by an NRL team.

Its not overnight though is it, its taking the strength of the NSW and QLnd cup which has been around for a very long time and adding to it other strategic areas that have been chomping at the bit for something to happen for decades. Creating a genuine second division that isnt just existing to feed the NRL clubs and has a legitimacy in its own right.
 
Messages
5,810
That's kind of a self defeating prophecy. We only have two FT professional divisions in the world, there's undoubtedly talent to create a third out there. Also marketing driving it, well not really, the powers that be drive these things not market. Yes it wont be as strong as NRL or SL, but it doesn't need to be. Its not there to compete with NRL but to supplement it now we are getting to the point where the NRL is highly unlikely to expand beyond its current size and yet we have developing or continuing markets unserviced by an NRL team.

Its not overnight though is it, its taking the strength of the NSW and QLnd cup which has been around for a very long time and adding to it other strategic areas that have been chomping at the bit for something to happen for decades. Creating a genuine second division that isnt just existing to feed the NRL clubs and has a legitimacy in its own right.
I think there's a genuine need for the state competitions to better represent large areas that don't have an NRL team. It's why I advocate Wynnum Manly rebranding as Redland Seagulls and relocating permanently to Redland City. It's stupid having them in a tiny area that represents few people. The combined population of Wynnum (12,910), Wynnum West (12,292), Manly (4,061) and Manly West (11,978)is about 38k, whereas Redland has about 150k.

Magpies should relocate permanently to Logan. West End isn't fit for rugby league in 2022.

Redcliffe should rebrand as Moreton Bay.

To show just how stupid it is to have Manly Warringah in a national competition, the population of Manly is less than 16k. Only mentally challenged people from NSW can delude themselves into thinking a suburb of 15k people, in a part of Sydney that couldn't give a stuff about the game, is more deserving of a team than Logan, which has a population of almost 330k, produces way more players and could easily find the financial resources to dwarf little old ruggers lovin' Manly. I wouldn't even have Manly Sea Eagles in the NSW Cup unless they changed their name to Northern Beaches Sea Eagles.

Adelaide and Perth would offer far more to the NRL than ruggers lovin' Manly.
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
48,603
I think there's a genuine need for the state competitions to better represent large areas that don't have an NRL team. It's why I advocate Wynnum Manly rebranding as Redland Seagulls and relocating permanently to Redland City. It's stupid having them in a tiny area that represents few people. The combined population of Wynnum (12,910), Wynnum West (12,292), Manly (4,061) and Manly West (11,978)is about 38k, whereas Redland has about 150k.

Magpies should relocate permanently to Logan. West End isn't fit for rugby league in 2022.

Redcliffe should rebrand as Moreton Bay.

To show just how stupid it is to have Manly Warringah in a national competition, the population of Manly is less than 16k. Only mentally challenged people from NSW can delude themselves into thinking a suburb of 15k people, in a part of Sydney that couldn't give a stuff about the game, is more deserving of a team than Logan, which has a population of almost 330k, produces way more players and could easily find the financial resources to dwarf little old ruggers lovin' Manly. I wouldn't even have Manly Sea Eagles in the NSW Cup unless they changed their name to Northern Beaches Sea Eagles.

Adelaide and Perth would offer far more to the NRL than ruggers lovin' Manly.
no one wants to follow a pseudo nrl reserve grade comp where titles are decided by nrl club tie ins. It doesnt lend itself to developing a following, hence why current NSW and qlnd cup games are lucky to get 500 to them.

Its a waste to have cities and stadiums with no teams, or no teams in legitimate comps, whilst the NRL stagnates and doesn't grow, or if it does its just by adding yet more heartland area clubs in areas that are already serviced by existing fans.
 
Messages
5,810
no one wants to follow a pseudo nrl reserve grade comp where titles are decided by nrl club tie ins. It doesnt lend itself to developing a following, hence why current NSW and qlnd cup games are lucky to get 500 to them.

Its a waste to have cities and stadiums with no teams, or no teams in legitimate comps, whilst the NRL stagnates and doesn't grow, or if it does its just by adding yet more heartland area clubs in areas that are already serviced by existing fans.
The only way I can see a competition like this working is if the ARLC forms strong ties with the NTRL, PNGRFL, NZRL, Samoa, Tonga, Cook Islands, Fiji, Solomon Islands and New Caledonia to get as many of the best athletes from these regions to play in it, under developmental contracts, with the long term goal being for them to make their way to the NRL. Our game needs a larger pool of players to support an 18 club competition. Growing the game in the Pacific by taking the best young athletes and giving them a chance to develop into an NRL player in a 2nd division would be lucrative to people from these countries. Their endomorphic mesomorph body type makes them ideal candidates to play RL and is the reason they struggle in endurance games like fumbleball, so we can recruit them with the knowledgeable that AwFuL will never get their hands on them.
 
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