NZ2 - Which city/cities/region?

[Colk]

So where is the money coming from?

Auckland went bust twice

Yet you want to put a CC side in?

 

[Colk]

Wellington - sht stadium, small population, 1 potential bid
Christchurch - great stadium, small population, union dominated, no bid
Auckland - decent population, one basket case club needing to rebuild, no bid

take your pick!

We get it. They are not Perth.

I also think that Perth should be the favourite but NZ has potential for a second side

 

[Colk]

Probably a Christchurch/south island team... I think a 2nd NZ side would be tough going though. I'm surprised the NRL even wants another NZ team with the way they treat the Warriors...

Auckland is covered
Wellington isn't a sports city really, its an Arts/foodie place from my experience. I just can't see them caring about an NRL side.

I agree with it being difficult. They really need to support the Warriors more before they think about another side over there

 

[jim_57]

The notion of a team that represents the whole South Island is fanciful. South Island AND Wellington even more so. Warriors have tried it as nz team and it has t worked looking at their membership base (pre covid of course). Rl fans won’t travel 20kms across a couple of suburbs to support their team, yet somehow this team is going to connect with a land mass of 150k sqkm?

North Queensland seem to manage it OK. Aren’t you a big advocate for a Perth based team not being called Perth because it excludes the rest of the state?

 

[MugaB]

North Queensland seem to manage it OK. Aren’t you a big advocate for a Perth based team not being called Perth because it excludes the rest of the state?

West coast is better, pirates are already that..
Anyways back to NZ....

 

[flippikat]

WELLINGTON

Disclaimer: I'm a proud, born & bred product of the Wellington region, born in the Hutt Valley, raised on the Kapiti Coast, settled with wife & son in Lower Hutt. I hope my assessment is balanced!

Pros:
Good stadium. Not *perfect*, being an oval & exposed to our unforgiving wind and rain - but located by the Wellington Railway Station, the nexus of our rail & bus networks.

Decent population, serviced by regular bus (Wellington City) and train (Porirua, Kapiti Coast, Hutt Valley) services, so no trouble getting to and from games.

We're also not Auckland or Christchurch. Funny as it sounds, but out of the three biggest cities here, Wellington is the one that's the lovable losers/underdogs, because we don't usually have spells of domination like Auckland or Christchurch based teams, which could appeal to people outside our region, if we want a wider fan catchment.

Biggest Pasifika population outside of Auckland - a big factor for fanbase AND junior talent, and something Christchurch just can't match. https://www.stats.govt.nz/tools/2018-census-ethnic-group-summaries//pacific-peoples

Cons:
Culture. Remember how I described Wellington as the "Lovable losers" out of our big 3 cities? Yeaaaah.. that's also a bit of a hurdle. Put bluntly, we're more of an arts & culture city than a sports city that you'd find in more rural or rural-adjacent centres like Hamilton or Christchurch.

Focus. By nature of it's central location, the risk is that a Wellington based team may try to spread itself around a little too much - there are other nearby cities in the North Island that games could be taken to, which risks diluting the brand and the team's focus. Christchurch, by it's distance from other big centres, probably wouldn't be as tempted to take games elsewhere, but a Wellington team could be fairly easily swayed to take a game to Palmerston North, a game to Napier etc etc in an attempt to match the Super Rugby Hurricanes.

Cannibalism of Warriors fanbase - now, the closer geographically NZ2 is to the Warriors, the bigger the risk of this is, as far as pulling fans to games, but (and this is personal opinion weighing in here) I THINK there's a risk that a lot of Wellington team fans would be ex-Warriors fans switching allegiance - I know I would. I can't speak for the situation in Christchurch, but I think it's a real factor here in the capital.

 

[MugaB]

WELLINGTON

Disclaimer: I'm a proud, born & bred product of the Wellington region, born in the Hutt Valley, raised on the Kapiti Coast, settled with wife & son in Lower Hutt. I hope my assessment is balanced!

Pros:
Good stadium. Not *perfect*, being an oval & exposed to our unforgiving wind and rain - but located by the Wellington Railway Station, the nexus of our rail & bus networks.

Decent population, serviced by regular bus (Wellington City) and train (Porirua, Kapiti Coast, Hutt Valley) services, so no trouble getting to and from games.

We're also not Auckland or Christchurch. Funny as it sounds, but out of the three biggest cities here, Wellington is the one that's the lovable losers/underdogs, because we don't usually have spells of domination like Auckland or Christchurch based teams, which could appeal to people outside our region, if we want a wider fan catchment.

Biggest Pasifika population outside of Auckland - a big factor for fanbase AND junior talent, and something Christchurch just can't match. https://www.stats.govt.nz/tools/2018-census-ethnic-group-summaries//pacific-peoples

Cons:
Culture. Remember how I described Wellington as the "Lovable losers" out of our big 3 cities? Yeaaaah.. that's also a bit of a hurdle. Put bluntly, we're more of an arts & culture city than a sports city that you'd find in more rural or rural-adjacent centres like Hamilton or Christchurch.

Focus. By nature of it's central location, the risk is that a Wellington based team may try to spread itself around a little too much - there are other nearby cities in the North Island that games could be taken to, which risks diluting the brand and the team's focus. Christchurch, by it's distance from other big centres, probably wouldn't be as tempted to take games elsewhere, but a Wellington team could be fairly easily swayed to take a game to Palmerston North, a game to Napier etc etc in an attempt to match the Super Rugby Hurricanes.

Cannibalism of Warriors fanbase - now, the closer geographically NZ2 is to the Warriors, the bigger the risk of this is, as far as pulling fans to games, but (and this is personal opinion weighing in here) I THINK there's a risk that a lot of Wellington team fans would be ex-Warriors fans switching allegiance - I know I would. I can't speak for the situation in Christchurch, but I think it's a real factor here in the capital.

Im enjoying these posts flippikat, its a great local insight

 

[Diesel]

I voted South Island as the team would be based in Christchurch but take games to Dunedin and Nelson/wherever.
I was always supportive of a Wellington team but at this stage, Christchurch is a better option IMO.
Name: Aotearoa Keas (or THE Keas just to f**k with people)

 

[flippikat]

Im enjoying these posts flippikat, its a great local insight

Thanks!

One of the trickiest parts to this is the corporate/sponsorship levels of each city - for the sake of this comparison, I'm assuming that sponsors will generally be companies with a national, trans-Tasman or global profile, rather than local companies - as our local economies don't generally produce companies of the scale to sponsor pro teams - well, at least not naming or high profile sponsors anyway.

That would mean that if a 2nd NZ team popped up ANYWHERE, then the likes of KFC, or Spark, or ANZ Bank would jump on board regardless of what city gets the nod.

 

[jim_57]

Ok, here's my assessment of those options - trying to be holistic, looking across as many factors as I can, from my Kiwi perspective.

Note: I wanna stay out of the "we can't have NZ until ..." or "maybe we should have ... before another NZ team" as that's a totally different topic.

My assumption in this analysis is the scenario where NRL have decided on a 2nd NZ team, regardless of all that, and looking at the options for THAT team's base.

For ease of quoting, I'll go over these in a series of posts, so let's look at the first mentioned.

CHRISTCHURCH
Pros:
When you look at Christchurch city and the next-door Waimakariri & Selwyn districts to the west, the population is more than Wellington's "group of cities" together,and second only to Auckland. The soon to be built indoor stadium is a big plus (especially for night games in cold NZ winters), especially being right downtown too. Christchurch & the Canterbury province have a proud history of sporting success, and a huge rivalry with all things Auckland.

Cons:
The shadow of the Crusaders looms large. Is there an appetite for a pro league team when the union team is so damn successful? Public transport less developed in Christchurch than Auckland & Wellington - especially to and from those neighboring districts, so getting to games would be bus or car, with no commuter rail network like Wellington or Auckland.
Branding is a conundrum too - does the team skew towards a traditional Christchurch/Canterbury feel (red and black) or something wider to make outreach to the whole South Island or wider? The sheer sporting success of teams in red and black over here can rankle fans in other locations. Lots of places love to hate Canterbury (NZ) teams, because they're so damn relentless.

I won’t pretend to have a great deal of knowledge on this so I’m interested to know do you think people from across the South Island could get behind a mainly Christchurch based team? even if they were branded South Island and played some games in other centres?

In a different sport (not Union) for a new team could it be navigated or does the Canterbury “hate” run too deep? Is there any sort of parochialism in being a “South Islander”?

 

[flippikat]

AUCKLAND 2

(Note - this is an assessment of an "Ethnically neutral" 2nd Auckland team, not an Auckland Pasifika team, although that will be covered later, and there will be some overlap with this post).

Pros:
A cross-town rivalry in our biggest city, the little brother-big brother dynamic for the Warriors, and maybe the critical-mass of games to drive the building of a new, modern stadium that befits our one international-scale city.

Huge Pasifika & Maori population - great for supporter base, and a juniors base. Already really engaged with the game.

Transport - Auckland is in the middle of a public transport revival, a key part of that’s the City Rail Link - an underground rail line due to open around 2024 that'll make transport from West Auckland to the Central City & South far more frequent & faster.
Add to that the prospect of light rail through the inner suburbs & to the Airport (not under construction yet, but moving through planning stages), and the need to supplement the Harbour Bridge with a 2nd bridge or tunnel for public transport, and there's a lot of progress on the horizon.

Cons:
Where do we base the new club?
As far as a home ground, there are only 3 Auckland venues that can do it, none of them entirely ideal.

* Mount Smart - a safe pair of hands, being the closest to the south Auckland heartland of rugby league, but potential to cannibalise the Warriors support.. plus how can the Warriors say "This is OUR house" if they're flatmates with the new guys?

* Eden Park - A point of difference, sure.. but it's too damn big for club footy, and you're moving away from rugby league heartland a little.

* North Harbour Stadium - newish, reasonable size for club games, creates a "North of the bridge v South of the bridge" geographical rivalry, BUT North Shore is solid rugby union territory.. fortified by a decent South African immigrant population.

Cannibalism - the new club could easily cannibalise Warriors support base, rather than GROW the pie of NZ fans.

Ethnic division - Now this is a worrying scenario. What if the new club attracts Tongan fans, while the Warriors attract Samoan fans & the clashes get a little out of hand? Currently the Warriors tend to unite league fans here - the division that a same-city rival creates may not be a friendly rivalry in some sectors of fan-level.

Ok, that's my last post for tonight, will pick this up again and look at someone the other options tomorrow.

 

[Wb1234]

Auckland 2 is a huge no for me

look at a league in Melbourne how it cannibalised crowds

 

[flippikat]

I won’t pretend to have a great deal of knowledge on this so I’m interested to know do you think people from across the South Island could get behind a mainly Christchurch based team? even if they were branded South Island and played some games in other centres?

In a different sport (not Union) for a new team could it be navigated or does the Canterbury “hate” run too deep? Is there any sort of parochialism in being a “South Islander”?

In my opinion, branding is key here - a Christchurch based team in "Canterbury" (province) red & black may be a hard sell to other centres.

I can only speak for myself, but as a Wellingtonian I CERTAINLY wouldn't switch my support from Warriors to them if they're in red & black - even if they take games to Wellington (I might go as an occasion, but probably not cheer for them).

With a more out-reaching brand, yeah, I'd consider a switch.

 

[jim_57]

In my opinion, branding is key here - a Christchurch based team in "Canterbury" (province) red & black may be a hard sell to other centres.

I can only speak for myself, but as a Wellingtonian I CERTAINLY wouldn't switch my support from Warriors to them if they're in red & black - even if they take games to Wellington (I might go as an occasion, but probably not cheer for them).

With a more out-reaching brand, yeah, I'd consider a switch.

Thanks.

I agree that if they go with Red & black that will alienate most people outside of Canterbury. To be honest even if they do go with a Christchurch base and brand Red & Black would be a mistake IMO, something to set themselves apart from Crusaders would make sense. Something distinct and unique, build their own brand.

First one that came to mind was White/Black/Green, not sure if that clashes with another region.

 

[MugaB]

Auckland 2 is a huge no for me

look at a league in Melbourne how it cannibalised crowds

Cant compare RL to A-league that's just cra cra

 

[MugaB]

Thanks.

I agree that if they go with Red & black that will alienate most people outside of Canterbury. To be honest even if they do go with a Christchurch base and brand Red & Black would be a mistake IMO, something to set themselves apart from Crusaders would make sense. Something distinct and unique, build their own brand.

Like "the BEARS"

 

[flippikat]

Thanks.

I agree that if they go with Red & black that will alienate most people outside of Canterbury. To be honest even if they do go with a Christchurch base and brand Red & Black would be a mistake IMO, something to set themselves apart from Crusaders would make sense. Something distinct and unique, build their own brand.

That's the thing that the Warriors did quite well with their green & red trim, added to Auckland's traditional blue and white strip.. as if to say "Hey, our home is Auckland but we're New Zealand's team too"

Now I realise that the original sponsor DB Bitter probably played a part in that too, matching the colours, but the point stands - that made the brand more than the Auckland rep team.

I don't know if simply adding a couple of colours to the red & black will do likewise for a Christchurch based team, though. They may need to be bolder in their outreach if they wanna appeal in other centres.

 

[Colk]

In my opinion, branding is key here - a Christchurch based team in "Canterbury" (province) red & black may be a hard sell to other centres.

I can only speak for myself, but as a Wellingtonian I CERTAINLY wouldn't switch my support from Warriors to them if they're in red & black - even if they take games to Wellington (I might go as an occasion, but probably not cheer for them).

With a more out-reaching brand, yeah, I'd consider a switch.

Thanks for the analysis Flippikat. Always interested in hearing your input as a Kiwi when talking about league over there.

Would South Island work as a name seeing that Canterbury is already taken? Is there another name?

 

[Colk]

That's the thing that the Warriors did quite well with their green & red trim, added to Auckland's traditional blue and white strip.. as if to say "Hey, our home is Auckland but we're New Zealand's team too"

Now I realise that the original sponsor DB Bitter probably played a part in that too, matching the colours, but the point stands - that made the brand more than the Auckland rep team.

I don't know if simply adding a couple of colours to the red & black will do likewise for a Christchurch based team, though. They may need to be bolder in their outreach if they wanna appeal in other centres.

Would a combination of colours from South Island teams work or would that be too difficult?

 

[jim_57]

Would a combination of colours from South Island teams work or would that be too difficult?

That's the thing that the Warriors did quite well with their green & red trim, added to Auckland's traditional blue and white strip.. as if to say "Hey, our home is Auckland but we're New Zealand's team too"

Now I realise that the original sponsor DB Bitter probably played a part in that too, matching the colours, but the point stands - that made the brand more than the Auckland rep team.

I don't know if simply adding a couple of colours to the red & black will do likewise for a Christchurch based team, though. They may need to be bolder in their outreach if they wanna appeal in other centres.

A little bit of a google search I found there is a “South Island Scorpions” rep Rugby League team that plays in black & white. According to Wikipedia anyway. Could use those plus maybe a trim colour.

I like something neutral like that or adding a few of the areas colours together like @Colk suggested.