NZ2 - Which city/cities/region?

[siv]

Yet you want to put a CC side in?

A CC / North Shore Bears team will be a financial power house

 

[siv]

I think there’s a few. Corporates, is there a big enough fanbase in either of the two cities, does Australian tv want another nz club given how poorly warriors rate? There’s plenty of advantages as well but that last one will be the decider given how media still controls nrl decision making.

Agree there has been ongoing financials issues

Lets not forget that the Bartercard Cup failed too due to financials

Players are there but money is not

There are only 3 locations in NZ
- Christchurch
- Wellington/ Palmerston North
- Hamilton area

But NZ is like city & country Oz state where Auckland is the city

 

[Colk]

A CC / North Shore Bears team will be a financial power house

No they wouldn’t be. Not competing with ten other sides for corporate dollars.

If you had half the sides from NSW that you currently do then maybe. Even then it wouldn’t be a growth option.

 

[jim_57]

theres an identity to being from WA. Do people across the South Island of nz identify themselves in the same way? Not to mention theres 2.2mill in perth and 200k in rest of WA so we’re not exactly reliant on attracting people from everywhere in same way. I would not be suggesting we play games in Albany and Geraldton lol.

No idea to be honest, I asked earlier in the thread. I think of it as similar to the NQ situation, team situated in the biggest population centre but targeting the area for some fans as well to broaden their appeal. 10 games a year in Christchurch minimum with 1-2 in Dunedin.

Branding would be key, ie not Red & Black and not called Christchurch or Canterbury. There will never be more than one NRL team on the South Island obviously so why not go for a larger appeal?

 

[Wb1234]

Cake tin is a terrible stadium to regularly host a team. That’s the biggest drawback for Wellington

it’s so depressing with 8k in there. All the other potential rectangular grounds are great for an nrl team (Waikato stadium, Dunedin ….both are excellent grounds for rugby)

 

[flippikat]

Riffing on the "Te Waipounamu" name for the South Island, what about a greenstone fish-hook as a logo motif?

It also feeds into the Maori legend that Maui (yep, same demi-God as the guy in the Moana movie) "fished up" the north island.

The North Island being Te Ika a Maui ("The fish of Maui" Wellington the head, Northland the tail - it does look like a stingray...) - and South Island being "Te Waka a Maui" - Maui's canoe in that legend.

 

[MugaB]

Riffing on the "Te Waipounamu" name for the South Island, what about a greenstone fish-hook as a logo motif?

It also feeds into the Maori legend that Maui (yep, same demi-God as the guy in the Moana movie) "fished up" the north island.

The North Island being Te Ika a Maui ("The fish of Maui" Wellington the head, Northland the tail - it does look like a stingray...) - and South Island being "Te Waka a Maui" - Maui's canoe in that legend.

Sounds exactly like a "warrior", do you want another similar mascot, personally i liked the south island scorpion angle (scorpion king also played by the rock aka voice of maui)
Or the Southern Orcas, even Wellington Fright (bat mascot)

 

[Perth Red]

Wh

On two of the positives/negatives:

Stadium: The Christchurch stadium might be years away, it's should have been done years ago. The official date has been pushed back to 2025 but with they way they're squabbling down there it will likely be later. As for the negatives of the Caketin, I actually find it pretty decent - the round shape doesn't really matter as in most areas you're actually pretty close.

Population: Wellington's population seems to be a bit underestimated in this thread. The main region totals up to about 400K and if you add in the Hurricanes boundaries then the population is reaching near 1m. The new team just needs to get that support (so basically look at what the Hurricanes do and do the opposite).

One thing they should do no matter where they are based is get Steve Tew (former NZ rugby CEO) to run it so we can try and avoid the kind of idiocy that goes on with the Warriors.

What’s the radius of that 1mill? Time and again it shows that once you go past 40-50km fron the stadium chances of fans attending in meaningful numbers are virtually zero.

 

[Wb1234]

Sounds exactly like a "warrior", do you want another similar mascot, personally i liked the south island scorpion angle (scorpion king also played by the rock aka voice of maui)
Or the Southern Orcas, even Wellington Fright (bat mascot)

Fright hell no that gives me a fright

orcas has always been the safest and most popular

 

[MugaB]

Going off these projections, having a second NZ team in the south of Auckland, encompassing waikato & bay of plenty is probably the way to go

 

[jim_57]

View attachment 64279
Going off these projections, having a second NZ team in the south of Auckland, encompassing waikato & bay of plenty is probably the way to go

Unless the Warriors are maximising their potential in Auckland I think a non-Auckland team is the way to go for team 2. NZ 3 or 4 (if they ever happen) Auckland could be a good option.

If Warriors find themselves in a crowd/membership/financial/corporate level of the Broncos in the meantime then maybe.

 

[flippikat]

Moving on to another destination (I'll cover off "South Island" & "Wellington/Christchurch splitting a later post), let's go to the (ahem) "City of the Future", the Tron (aka Hamilton)...

HAMILTON

Pros:
Population. As MugaB posted above, the Waikato region has a decent population - when you draw together Hamilton & surrounding satellite towns. Growth is solid too, definitely drawing up to the Wellington region on projections. Plus, if the Bay of Plenty is factored into the catchment.. well, that would make it second only to Auckland.

Stadium. Rectangular stadium with just under 26k capacity, which is about right for week-to-week club footy.

Demographics. While not as big a Pacific Island community as Wellington & Auckland, this region has one of the higher proportions of Maori population in New Zealand.

Decent sporting culture.
Being in the middle of dairy-farming country, as with many rural places the folk love their sport.. and love taking down the city slickers from Auckland down a peg or two.

Cons:
Decentralized population spread & transport.
Hamilton City has about 200,000 people - the wider Waikato region has easily double that. Same with the Bay of Plenty - 160,000 in Tauranga city, double that when factoring in satellite towns.
If supporters are to be drawn from all of that, the transport is likely to be by car, as there's no wider regional public transport that links these centres. Sure there's been some proposals, but local & national Governments haven't been that interested, instead spending on motorways, particularly the Waikato expressway that bypasses small towns to make the Hamilton-Auckland drive faster & more direct.

For those interested, one regional rail proposal for Waikato/Bay of Plenty (from Greater Auckland public transport blog) is here - https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/regional-rapid-rail/

Basically, don't jump to assume Waikato/Bay of Plenty could be one fanbase for attending games.. Unless the games were split, which may cause season-ticket complications.

Proximity to Auckland.
Anecdotally I hear stories of Waikato/Hamilton Warriors fans that make the trip up pretty regularly for Warriors games. A Hamilton based expansion team could well cannibalise that support.

Branding.
With the Waikato's big Maori population, the expectation may be a Maori-themed brand.. but (as mentioned elsewhere in the thread) this risks veering too close to Warriors branding. The other question is whether to use Waikato colors (red,black,yellow) or a mix of Waikato plus the blue and yellow for Bay of Plenty (so, red black yellow blue), or a neutral color mix?
There's not the same animosity to Waikato as there is to Canterbury province nationwide.. but if the Pirates are team 18, we could have seen two red/gold or red/yellow teams added as 17 and 18, driving a 19th team in Hamilton towards something else in need of a point of difference.

 

[jim_57]

I think this is a great thread (lets hope it does not get ruined).

NZ is very interesting as there is no particular location that can you can confidentially say "yes thats it". It also presents RL with an enormous opportunity. If for example the AFL had the footprint RL has in NZ they would be milking it for every cent. AFL will probably never have that chance so it shows how much potential growth RL can have. In fact the whole of the south pacific is RL's to grow into, sort the Origin eligibility stuff and watch Fiji, Samoa, Tonga reach their true potential. Something Union in the islands would not be able to match, anyway thats another discussion.

Now in the short run the NRL along with NZRL, ARL, Warriors etc need to sort pathways/juniors. In the long run for a Kiwi team to have a better chance for success will have to include a majority of local juniors. Not all but a majority would have to be, takes away the concern of homesick Aussie's.

Having being fortunate to have spent a wee bit of time in South island (heading back to QT in the NewYear) I can't see any potential for a team at present in Christchurch. Won't have the corporate support either and just because Union seems to be a bit on the nose does not mean they will just take up supporting RL. South island will need more time but that new stadium coming can only be a positive for RL in the long run. Few clients that I know that run pretty significant businesses in South island also share the view. The Crusaders maybe the version of Storm in NZ but they are also struggling for corporate partners etc. These guys are always getting hit up to sponsor/come to events for the Crusaders.

Both the Warriors and NZRL recommend any new team in NZ to be in a different location to the Warriors. I can see the positives of 2 teams in the biggest market. Game every week during the season at the biggest market in country. However it's the set up of Auckland that discourages a second Auckland team. League is strong in the West/South of the city. As poster mentioned earlier north shore is union heartland similar to what the north shore is here in Sydney. So a team in North harbour for me would not work. Having another team at Mt Smart would cannibalise the Warrior's support.

The safest bet at present which may not the popular bet would be Wellington. Yes it may have a smaller city population than Christchurch but this potential team will be getting most of its support initially at least from the Hutt/Porirua etc.. The surrounding area's have a bigger population (Wellington Region 527K) than Christchurch and have lots of Maoris and Polynesian's and good rail links to the cake tin. I think Chalmers in his Orca's bid had plans for a training base to be located in the Hutt.

Anyway an interesting discussion good to get the input from Kiwi's too.

That’s what lead me to start this thread, a lot of talk about NZ2 but everyone seems to have a different idea on what the best model is. There is no slam dunk solution and I don’t think if the “heartland” guaranteed success option that some people seem to think it is as opposed to Perth (without getting in to that argument).

Timing will be interesting, if Perth get team 18 then Auckland 2 could be an option if Warriors really excel in the meantime. Likewise if some grassroots work is done in Christchurch and Wellington it would improve their chances of being viable. It will be interesting to see if the NRL put their money where there mouth is after promising to go after Union in NZ.

 

[Colk]

That’s what lead me to start this thread, a lot of talk about NZ2 but everyone seems to have a different idea on what the best model is. There is no slam dunk solution and I don’t think if the “heartland” guaranteed success option that some people seem to think it is as opposed to Perth (without getting in to that argument).

Timing will be interesting, if Perth get team 18 then Auckland 2 could be an option if Warriors really excel in the meantime. Likewise if some grassroots work is done in Christchurch and Wellington it would improve their chances of being viable. It will be interesting to see if the NRL put their money where there mouth is after promising to go after Union in NZ.

I would love to see NZ 2 and even 3 down the line. Honestly if we are going to grow the game per se, there isn’t really great options in Australia outside of Perth (Adelaide yes but I think I’d prefer a relocation, Brisbane 3 maybe, Melbourne 2 not really) and the economies in other Pacific countries are just not there. The challenges will be great - (where do you put the extra team or teams, would they have enough corporate support) but there is potential

 

[jim_57]

I would love to see NZ 2 and even 3 down the line. Honestly if we are going to grow the game per se, there isn’t really great options in Australia outside of Perth (Adelaide yes but I think I’d prefer a relocation, Brisbane 3 maybe, Melbourne 2 not really) and the economies in other Pacific countries are just not there. The challenges will be great - (where do you put the extra team or teams, would they have enough corporate support) but there is potential

Agree with that, if NRL was to really take off in NZ I don’t think 3 is out of the question in the medium/long term. Slightly OT but having a ‘NZ Cup’ to run alongside NSW & QLD Cups would be great one day but would require a lot of work & investment to get there obviously.

 

[Perth Red]

the biggest issue I can see is the $’s. It’s getting increasingly expensive to run an nrl club, and even with a significantly increased grant clubs are now expected to spend millions on development, womens development etc etc. we are at the point where clubs need to be able to generate around $15-20mill from football operations and any other sources, mostly still pokies for Australian clubs.

this cost will exclude lots of options where there isnt a signifcant fanbase and corporate level of support (or a pokie den).

not sure what the nrl can do about that other than either adopt the afl grant system or somehow cap overall expenditure of clubs to slow down the arms race. If they do that it would open up a lot more options to be viable.

 

[Colk]

Agree with that, if NRL was to really take off in NZ I don’t think 3 is out of the question in the medium/long term. Slightly OT but having a ‘NZ Cup’ to run alongside NSW & QLD Cups would be great one day but would require a lot of work & investment to get there obviously.

Totally agree. I think they have a second tier competition (I’m sure Flippikat could confirm) but making that bigger and better would be a start.

If we have the money and they want to make a dent taking talent from schoolboy union etc like what has happened recently over here would be an ideal way of taking on union. It won’t work for all players over there because the lure of the All Blacks is obviously massive but you can still make gains with better financial incentives.

 

[Colk]

the biggest issue I can see is the $’s. It’s getting increasingly expensive to run an nrl club, and even with a significantly increased grant clubs are now expected to spend millions on development, womens development etc etc. we are at the point where clubs need to be able to generate around $15-20mill from football operations and any other sources, mostly still pokies for Australian clubs.

this cost will exclude lots of options where there isnt a signifcant fanbase and corporate level of support (or a pokie den).

not sure what the nrl can do about that other than either adopt the afl grant system or somehow cap overall expenditure of clubs to slow down the arms race. If they do that it would open up a lot more options to be viable.

You have identified one of the big structural problems with the competition. The idea that every club gets the same grant is ridiculous. Regional clubs with large junior competitions /nurseries should have been getting bigger grants for a number of years.

 

[The Great Dane]

Agree with that, if NRL was to really take off in NZ I don’t think 3 is out of the question in the medium/long term. Slightly OT but having a ‘NZ Cup’ to run alongside NSW & QLD Cups would be great one day but would require a lot of work & investment to get there obviously.

The NRL will need a minimum of 4/5 clubs if they are serious about having anything more than a token presence in the NZ market. Exactly how you’d spread those 3/4 new clubs is debatable (though Christchurch and Wellington would be a given), but 4/5 is the minimum you’d need to achieve anything close to market coverage in NZ.

Ideally those clubs would come in relatively quick succession as well. Dropping a team in the country then letting them fend for themselves for 30 years is no way to build hype and momentum, but I digress.

In other words if the NRL are actually interested in taking the NZ market seriously (and that’s a big if IMO), then it’s going to require a huge outlay to achieve anything segnificant, and not just in top tier pro sides either.

Frankly, whether or not it’s worth it is highly debatable IMO. Especially when considering the markets that are still on the table here, the absolute state RL is in in Australia at the moment, and the fact that further focus overseas will undoubtedly further compound most of those issues here.

 

[Wb1234]

That’s what lead me to start this thread, a lot of talk about NZ2 but everyone seems to have a different idea on what the best model is. There is no slam dunk solution and I don’t think if the “heartland” guaranteed success option that some people seem to think it is as opposed to Perth (without getting in to that argument).

Timing will be interesting, if Perth get team 18 then Auckland 2 could be an option if Warriors really excel in the meantime. Likewise if some grassroots work is done in Christchurch and Wellington it would improve their chances of being viable. It will be interesting to see if the NRL put their money where there mouth is after promising to go after Union in NZ.

Nz2 rank far ahead of Perth on just about all metrics

abdo himself singled out nz as the area to go too

nz2 has better stadia, huge junior pool, will get similar crowds as Perth, improves international rugby league and gets more money from tv via sky nz

sky nz will pay for the cost of the club leaving the arlc to sell the 9th game to Aussie tv for pure profit