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NZ2 - Which city/cities/region?

NZ2 - Best Location

  • Christchurch

    Votes: 7 24.1%
  • Wellington

    Votes: 6 20.7%
  • Auckland 2

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Christchurch/Wellington split

    Votes: 3 10.3%
  • South Island

    Votes: 4 13.8%
  • Hamilton

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • “Pacific” based in Auckland with links to Tonga/Samoa

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 10.3%

  • Total voters
    29

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
52,920
People continue to get mixed up between the responsibility of an nrl club to take the best 15/16 year olds and turn them into skilled professional first graders, and the arlc/nzrl and various state bodies to increase participation and ensure there’s enough of those 15/16 year olds playing the game for nrl clubs to pick up. The only reason some nrl clubs do anything beyond point 1 is because of pokie dens and a historic nature of a city competition and way the Sydney has been set up.
 

Colk

Bench
Messages
4,129
Nah

North Sydney working with CC

Best of both worlds

You’re obviously taking the p*** but yeah let’s plonk a side where you already have nine sides and where 2 or 3 (at least) of them already struggle for support.

The biggest teams in the competition in terms of support (one city teams) are the Broncos and the Storm yet you want to add another small suburban club

Also CC is a struggling region financially backed by a stadium and facilities that aren’t good enough. It’s a terrible idea and you’re the only one advocating it. Btw even the ARLC have said no more NSW sides.
 
Messages
7,176
I think this is a great thread (lets hope it does not get ruined).

NZ is very interesting as there is no particular location that can you can confidentially say "yes thats it". It also presents RL with an enormous opportunity. If for example the AFL had the footprint RL has in NZ they would be milking it for every cent. AFL will probably never have that chance so it shows how much potential growth RL can have. In fact the whole of the south pacific is RL's to grow into, sort the Origin eligibility stuff and watch Fiji, Samoa, Tonga reach their true potential. Something Union in the islands would not be able to match, anyway thats another discussion.

Now in the short run the NRL along with NZRL, ARL, Warriors etc need to sort pathways/juniors. In the long run for a Kiwi team to have a better chance for success will have to include a majority of local juniors. Not all but a majority would have to be, takes away the concern of homesick Aussie's.

Having being fortunate to have spent a wee bit of time in South island (heading back to QT in the NewYear) I can't see any potential for a team at present in Christchurch. Won't have the corporate support either and just because Union seems to be a bit on the nose does not mean they will just take up supporting RL. South island will need more time but that new stadium coming can only be a positive for RL in the long run. Few clients that I know that run pretty significant businesses in South island also share the view. The Crusaders maybe the version of Storm in NZ but they are also struggling for corporate partners etc. These guys are always getting hit up to sponsor/come to events for the Crusaders.

Both the Warriors and NZRL recommend any new team in NZ to be in a different location to the Warriors. I can see the positives of 2 teams in the biggest market. Game every week during the season at the biggest market in country. However it's the set up of Auckland that discourages a second Auckland team. League is strong in the West/South of the city. As poster mentioned earlier north shore is union heartland similar to what the north shore is here in Sydney. So a team in North harbour for me would not work. Having another team at Mt Smart would cannibalise the Warrior's support.

The safest bet at present which may not the popular bet would be Wellington. Yes it may have a smaller city population than Christchurch but this potential team will be getting most of its support initially at least from the Hutt/Porirua etc.. The surrounding area's have a bigger population (Wellington Region 527K) than Christchurch and have lots of Maoris and Polynesian's and good rail links to the cake tin. I think Chalmers in his Orca's bid had plans for a training base to be located in the Hutt.

Anyway an interesting discussion good to get the input from Kiwi's too. :)
Are there any plans for Wellington to get a purpose built football stadium?

If there aren't any plans ATM then the prospect of an NRL team playing 12 games in Wellington -- on top of what the Hurricanes play in Super Rugby and the soccer team in A-League -- would increase the likelihood of it becoming economically viable. RL is in the unique position of potentially influencing investment in new stadia across Perth and Wellington. PVL needs to play the governments from both regions against one another. In an ideal world he would work out a deal to have both regions equipped with a team within 10 years.
 

flippikat

Bench
Messages
3,423
Are there any plans for Wellington to get a purpose built football stadium?
Frankly, no.

In hindsight, the Councils (City & Regional) got it wrong.

Historically, Wellington had a Cricket Oval - the Basin Reserve - and a rectangular rugby (union) ground, Athletic Park.

[Attached pictures - Athletic Park, including the frankly terrifying "Millard Stand" - demolished in the 2000s & replaced by a retirement village]

By the mid 1990s, Athletic Park was bluntly past it's best - it was in a residential zone (similar to many "old school" NZ stadia) so there were limits on events & lighting, and the choice came between sinking money into a useless location or building at a new site.
Professional rugby played a part there, as the game needed more evening games for TV overseas, and Wellington just couldn't host them.

In the 1990s the decision for a new stadium came down to 2 choices - surplus railyard land by Wellington Station & a greenfield development in Aotea, near Porirua - the Railyards won, basically due to greater ease of public transport to/from games & proximity to Wellington City Centre - you can walk from there to bars etc.

The multipurpose (oval) design was out of requirement for cricket one dayers (in the 1990s T20 wasn't on anyone's radar) - as the Basin Reserve couldn't get consent for TV standard lights (being city-fringe) - still doesn't have TV standard lights. But even for limited overs cricket, our crowds aren't that huge.

What SHOULD have happened is building a new rectangular stadium (footy, concerts) in the late 1990s, capacity 30-35k, and re-do some stands at the Basin to bring it up to 20-25k with decent lighting.

I actually think the best chance of getting a rectangular ground is upgrading the Basin first.
Then when Sky Stadium is due for refurbishment or replacement either converting the seats to rectangular, or demolishing it and doing a complete rebuild - this time NOT multi-use.
With the Hurricanes, Phoenix & Wellington Lions (Provincial RU) playing out of the Basin while the work is done.
 

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Messages
4,210
Warriors have made the 8 once in 11 years. How they stop the best 15/16 year olds being cherry picked and moved to Australian systems is a hard one, and why warriors haven’t been able to develop a decent side in a decade despite the jnr opportunity remains a mystery. Add in competition from another club in the country and it doesn’t look great Unless something significantly changes in nz.
The Warriors and NZRL supposedly have terrible pathway systems. Gus Gould was supposed to be heading over there to help them sort it out, which would have been awesome but Covid scuttled that. Hopefully the Warriors have a plan B in place because honestly, if they got their shit together and went on a tear with a golden generation they would be second to only the All Blacks in NZ and we've all seen the Kiwi bandwagoners go nuts in Australia too when they are winning.
 

Gobsmacked

Juniors
Messages
375
What happens to NZ 2 when NZ win the world cup ?
Everything shifts to NZ being the centre of RL. The pride of RL steps up a gear in NZ !
The new centre of all rugby becomes NRL.
It's coming faster than you think.
 

Wb1234

Bench
Messages
4,171
What happens to NZ 2 when NZ win the world cup ?
Everything shifts to NZ being the centre of RL. The pride of RL steps up a gear in NZ !
The new centre of all rugby becomes NRL.
It's coming faster than you think.
Aussie don’t acknowledge them much but the founders of rugby league were as much kiwis as Aussies

early nz Māori tours to nsw stopped the nswrl from going broke

indeed the very rules of rugby league came from the English watching the running rugby of the 1905 all blacks and changing the rules of our game from union to league

if nz gets developed properly kiwis vs Roos tests matches could be bigger than origin

already the kiwis have loads of ex players in Tonga and Samoa and they still have a great side
 

Diesel

Coach
Messages
17,428
Frankly, no.

In hindsight, the Councils (City & Regional) got it wrong.

Historically, Wellington had a Cricket Oval - the Basin Reserve - and a rectangular rugby (union) ground, Athletic Park.

[Attached pictures - Athletic Park, including the frankly terrifying "Millard Stand" - demolished in the 2000s & replaced by a retirement village]

By the mid 1990s, Athletic Park was frankly past it's best - it was in a residential zone (similar to many "old school" NZ stadia) so there were limits on events & lighting, and the choice came between sinking money into a useless location or building at a new site.
Professional rugby played a part there, as the game needed more evening games for TV overseas, and Wellington just couldn't host them.

In the 1990s the decision for a new stadium came down to 2 choices - surplus railyard land by Wellington Station & a greenfield development in Aotea, near Porirua - the Railyards won, basically due to greater ease of public transport to/from games & proximity to Wellington City Centre - you can walk from there to bars etc.

The multipurpose (oval) design was out of requirement for cricket one dayers (in the 1990s T20 wasn't on anyone's radar) - as the Basin Reserve couldn't get consent for TV standard lights (being city-fringe) - still doesn't have TV standard lights. But even for limited overs cricket, our crowds aren't that huge.

What SHOULD have happened is building a new rectangular stadium (footy, concerts) in the late 1990s, capacity 30-35k, and re-do some stands at the Basin to bring it up to 20-25k with decent lighting.

I actually think the best chance of getting a rectangular ground is upgrading the Basin first.
Then when Sky Stadium is due for refurbishment or replacement either converting the seats to rectangular, or demolishing it and doing a complete rebuild - this time NOT multi-use.
With the Hurricanes, Phoenix & Wellington Lions (Provincial RU) playing out of the Basin while the work is done.
Much like you can’t beat Wellington on a good day, not much rivals the Millard Stand in a proper Wellington southerly
 

Diesel

Coach
Messages
17,428
What happens to NZ 2 when NZ win the world cup ?
Everything shifts to NZ being the centre of RL. The pride of RL steps up a gear in NZ !
The new centre of all rugby becomes NRL.
It's coming faster than you think.
There’s a good chance of NZ winning the RLWC this year and they’ll be a good boost to RL in NZ
 

ash the bash

Juniors
Messages
984
Frankly, no.

In hindsight, the Councils (City & Regional) got it wrong.

Historically, Wellington had a Cricket Oval - the Basin Reserve - and a rectangular rugby (union) ground, Athletic Park.

[Attached pictures - Athletic Park, including the frankly terrifying "Millard Stand" - demolished in the 2000s & replaced by a retirement village]

By the mid 1990s, Athletic Park was frankly past it's best - it was in a residential zone (similar to many "old school" NZ stadia) so there were limits on events & lighting, and the choice came between sinking money into a useless location or building at a new site.
Professional rugby played a part there, as the game needed more evening games for TV overseas, and Wellington just couldn't host them.

In the 1990s the decision for a new stadium came down to 2 choices - surplus railyard land by Wellington Station & a greenfield development in Aotea, near Porirua - the Railyards won, basically due to greater ease of public transport to/from games & proximity to Wellington City Centre - you can walk from there to bars etc.

The multipurpose (oval) design was out of requirement for cricket one dayers (in the 1990s T20 wasn't on anyone's radar) - as the Basin Reserve couldn't get consent for TV standard lights (being city-fringe) - still doesn't have TV standard lights. But even for limited overs cricket, our crowds aren't that huge.

What SHOULD have happened is building a new rectangular stadium (footy, concerts) in the late 1990s, capacity 30-35k, and re-do some stands at the Basin to bring it up to 20-25k with decent lighting.

I actually think the best chance of getting a rectangular ground is upgrading the Basin first.
Then when Sky Stadium is due for refurbishment or replacement either converting the seats to rectangular, or demolishing it and doing a complete rebuild - this time NOT multi-use.
With the Hurricanes, Phoenix & Wellington Lions (Provincial RU) playing out of the Basin while the work is done.
Its a pity as the cake tin is in the best location for a stadium in NZ. Walking distance from city and heavy rail. This might be a little left field, what would you think about a stadium (20K) somewhere in the Hutt Valley ?
 

flippikat

Bench
Messages
3,423
Its a pity as the cake tin is in the best location for a stadium in NZ. Walking distance from city and heavy rail. This might be a little left field, what would you think about a stadium (20K) somewhere in the Hutt Valley ?
Good question.

The Phoenix have played at the Hutt Recreation Ground ("Hutt Rec" - home to Hutt Old Boys Marist rugby union club in the Wellington club rugby competition) when Sky Stadium was unavailable due to other commitments, and it's 8000 capacity is pretty handy for smallish crowds - and could probably be upgraded for a bigger capacity.

But transport is a problem - for Hutt people, train or bus is fine, for Wellington city (east/west/south suburbs) or especially Porirua/Kapiti to the north, public transport is so convoluted, it's best to drive to the Hutt Valley.

For people in Karori or Island Bay or Miramar (suburbs of Wellington City), it'd be a bus to the Wellington Station from their suburb, then another bus or train to the Hutt Valley.

But with no direct bus or train to the Hutt from Porirua (or anywhere on that line), so a public transport trip would be all the way down to Wellington Station on the Kapiti/Porirua line, then back north - either by bus from Wellington station or along the Hutt Valley line - basically back-tracking.

The northern railway "branches" (Johnsonville, Kapiti, Hutt) only connect at Wellington.

[Map illustrates a sad lack of "cross links" between branches running north of Wellington CBD]
 

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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
52,920
D
What happens to NZ 2 when NZ win the world cup ?
Everything shifts to NZ being the centre of RL. The pride of RL steps up a gear in NZ !
The new centre of all rugby becomes NRL.
It's coming faster than you think.
does Vlandys and Abdo even know Theres a World Cup on?
 

flippikat

Bench
Messages
3,423
So.. what about those ideas of a "South Island" team or Wellington/Christchurch split?

I think it kinda runs the risk of a Wests Tigers situation where the club could try to be all things to everyone, but erodes the strength in having a set base & a "home turf".

Obviously for a South Island team, the base & majority of games would have to be Christchurch - but how many home games could be played elsewhere before the concept of a home base is eroded too much? I'd venture 1 home game in Dunedin, and a pre-season game in Nelson or on the West Coast if they wanna be sharing some footy. Thing is, none of those other places has a big population either - the biggest South Island city after Christchurch is Dunedin with only just over 100,000 people.

For Wellington/Christchurch, you could conceivably see the secondary market get 2 or even 3 games per year.. possibly.. but it detracts from the actual home of the team. I'd be conservative and say 1 if any.. as in the long run I'd like to see Wellington AND Christchurch have teams of their own (3 NZ NRL teams IMO should be the long term plan)
 

Gobsmacked

Juniors
Messages
375
D

does Vlandys and Abdo even know Theres a World Cup on?

So.. what about those ideas of a "South Island" team or Wellington/Christchurch split?

I think it kinda runs the risk of a Wests Tigers situation where the club could try to be all things to everyone, but erodes the strength in having a set base & a "home turf".

Obviously for a South Island team, the base & majority of games would have to be Christchurch - but how many home games could be played elsewhere before the concept of a home base is eroded too much? I'd venture 1 home game in Dunedin, and a pre-season game in Nelson or on the West Coast if they wanna be sharing some footy. Thing is, none of those other places has a big population either - the biggest South Island city after Christchurch is Dunedin with only just over 100,000 people.

For Wellington/Christchurch, you could conceivably see the secondary market get 2 or even 3 games per year.. possibly.. but it detracts from the actual home of the team. I'd be conservative and say 1 if any.. as in the long run I'd like to see Wellington AND Christchurch have teams of their own (3 NZ NRL teams IMO should be the log term
I think 2 NZ teams would be great. Both being called NZ . The second one should be based in Wellington and both teams should be responsible for taking the od game to Christchurch, even negotiating with clubs for away games taken there.
Maybe in 20 years we'll get a Christchurch based team enter with Perth to have a 20 team comp .
 

Colk

Bench
Messages
4,129
So.. what about those ideas of a "South Island" team or Wellington/Christchurch split?

I think it kinda runs the risk of a Wests Tigers situation where the club could try to be all things to everyone, but erodes the strength in having a set base & a "home turf".

Obviously for a South Island team, the base & majority of games would have to be Christchurch - but how many home games could be played elsewhere before the concept of a home base is eroded too much? I'd venture 1 home game in Dunedin, and a pre-season game in Nelson or on the West Coast if they wanna be sharing some footy. Thing is, none of those other places has a big population either - the biggest South Island city after Christchurch is Dunedin with only just over 100,000 people.

For Wellington/Christchurch, you could conceivably see the secondary market get 2 or even 3 games per year.. possibly.. but it detracts from the actual home of the team. I'd be conservative and say 1 if any.. as in the long run I'd like to see Wellington AND Christchurch have teams of their own (3 NZ NRL teams IMO should be the long term plan)

Thanks for all your posts Flippikat. I don’t like the idea of a Wellington/Christchurch split because they are too far away from each other. I think you have to pick one for the other side but you would obviously be better placed.

In future though, would a second side in Auckland (maybe taking into Waikato/Bay of Plenty) be a good chance instead of Christchurch/Wellington. I’m saying that as an outsider but that seems to be where the population growth in NZ is coming from?
 

Wb1234

Bench
Messages
4,171
So.. what about those ideas of a "South Island" team or Wellington/Christchurch split?

I think it kinda runs the risk of a Wests Tigers situation where the club could try to be all things to everyone, but erodes the strength in having a set base & a "home turf".

Obviously for a South Island team, the base & majority of games would have to be Christchurch - but how many home games could be played elsewhere before the concept of a home base is eroded too much? I'd venture 1 home game in Dunedin, and a pre-season game in Nelson or on the West Coast if they wanna be sharing some footy. Thing is, none of those other places has a big population either - the biggest South Island city after Christchurch is Dunedin with only just over 100,000 people.

For Wellington/Christchurch, you could conceivably see the secondary market get 2 or even 3 games per year.. possibly.. but it detracts from the actual home of the team. I'd be conservative and say 1 if any.. as in the long run I'd like to see Wellington AND Christchurch have teams of their own (3 NZ NRL teams IMO should be the long term plan)
Other than Auckland no other place in nz can really support a team on their own

end of the day it’s about sky nz paying for the team things like crowds are a secondary concern to the arlc

the shared city model is the only real option imo
 

Colk

Bench
Messages
4,129
Other than Auckland no other place in nz can really support a team on their own

end of the day it’s about sky nz paying for the team things like crowds are a secondary concern to the arlc

the shared city model is the only real option imo

If you are going for another Auckland side as NZ 2 that is not really expanding though. You are not going after any of the 60-70% of New Zealanders that don’t live in Auckland
 

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