What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

O/T but interesting RL Article

Father Ted

First Grade
Messages
5,531
It's tough to wrestle with stats: NRL's top teams have balance just right

April 23, 2012


art-353-wayne-bennett-200x0.jpg
Tough start to the season ... Wayne Bennett. Photo: Darren Pateman

Super coach Wayne Bennett is in unfamiliar territory with the Knights, the legendary premiership winner having one of his worst starts to a season in his 26 years in the top grade.
Newcastle are currently 10th, with three wins and four losses. Bennett's teams have been running first or second after seven rounds for most of his career, with the Broncos' 14th place in 1999 and 13th place in 2007 the rare exceptions.
When he moved to the Dragons for the 2009 season, he inherited a strong defence and Jamie Soward's long kicking game, allowing the Dragons to be third after seven rounds with five wins. St George Illawarra improved to first in April the next year when the club won the premiership. The Dragons were running second the same time last year and are now sixth, supporting the argument a change of coach makes a difference.


But the Knights were in a better position last year without Bennett, running seventh with one more win.
Bennett had Darren Lockyer and a big pack for most of his time in Brisbane, further support for the old argument that playing talent is more important than the coach.
The Warriors, with a change of coach, are ninth, the same position they found themselves in last year. The Panthers, with the Warriors' old coach, are 14th, the same as last year, with an identical record of two wins and five losses.

Early-season statistics are misleading because the opposition is different - some clubs have played more home games, while others have travelled long distances with short weeks.
What we can be certain about is that the clubs that whinge are down the ladder. They have coaches who depend on piggy-back penalties for points, breaks in play to rest their players and artificially fast play-the-balls for their team.

The media campaign against wrestling, including photographs of Storm players, ignores the fact Melbourne are running first because they are scoring more points than any other club.
The so-called inventors of wrestling are also scoring more after seven rounds than in any past seasons. The Storm have scored 210 points, 48 more than Bennett's Dragons in 2010. Asked why his team is undefeated, Melbourne coach Craig Bellamy said simply: ''We are attacking better.''
In fact, according to statistics from Sportsdata, the Storm have the third slowest play-the-balls of any NRL club, bettering only the Cowboys and Broncos, who are running second and third respectively in terms of points scored.
If these clubs are holding down the tackled player to slow up the play-the-ball, the opposition must be doing it to them!
These early season stats do tend to undermine another myth - that fast play-the-balls enhance attack.

When the Super League season started in 1997, Bennett conned the other coaches into fast play-the-balls, arguing that wrestling techniques undermined attack and bored the crowd.
So referees instructed the defenders to move quickly away from the tackled player and stood back about 12 metres in defence.
And what happened?
The Broncos' monster pack and smart dummy halves travelled the entire length of the field in the six tackles, scoring tries through turnstile defence.

The Storm are scoring tries, despite having the third slowest play-the-balls, because they have an attack willing to risk more within a structure. It's not ad lib, but it's more daring within a rehearsed routine.
You think Billy Slater's tries are freakish? Go to Storm training and you will see Cooper Cronk, Cameron Smith and Slater work the same attacking plays until they can do it with their eyes closed.
The Sharks have also climbed higher up the ladder without any grapplers, chokers or chicken wings. They are running third but are No.1 for metres gained, offloads and tackle breaks - all indices of attack.
Second-placed Brisbane have also improved their attack, being No.2 in these categories, as well as No.2 in line breaks. The Storm are No.1 in line breaks and, typically, make the least errors of any club.
Bennett's stunted attack can't be blamed exclusively on wrestling because the Knights are down in all indices of attack - 13th in points scored, 14th in line breaks, and 15th in both offloads and tackle breaks.
The NRL brought a second referee in to stop wrestling. Technically, with a referee standing at the ruck shouting ''move'', this should have led to faster play-the-balls.

But the average number of play-the-balls per 80-minute game has been stable for a decade - 139 in 2003 and 136 today.
Referees and the top teams have the balance between attack and defence just right.








Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...-just-right-20120422-1xf63.html#ixzz1soy1A65O
 

Father Ted

First Grade
Messages
5,531
Raises a couple of things I find interesting. 1 I wonder what the play the ball rate was say in the 70's and 80's and 2 I was completely sold by the "experts" that quick play the balls were the hub on which good attack was launched , But if the top three teams in the comp are the three slowest at playing the ball perhaps the lession is either actual time in possession or respect for possession . In answer to your question you take a leaf out of their book and practace your attacking plays until like Melbourne they are Flawless and buying Smith and Slater helps as well. Just my thoughts.
 

blacklock

Juniors
Messages
1,250
id prefer that we keep the game as is with the wrestling than have the refs intervene and decide a match. theres nothing worse than have penalties blown on a very gray area.

i think the media have overreacted and made a crisis out of nothing. the football is good. we just happened to have a few dull games. that aside its been a good tight season. sometimes the media makes the good the enemy of the perfect.
 

64 Dragon

Coach
Messages
11,249
id prefer that we keep the game as is with the wrestling than have the refs intervene and decide a match. theres nothing worse than have penalties blown on a very gray area.

i think the media have overreacted and made a crisis out of nothing. the football is good. we just happened to have a few dull games. that aside its been a good tight season. sometimes the media makes the good the enemy of the perfect.

The thing that worries me about the wrestling is that sooner or later someone will be badly injured. It makes me shudder to see someone tackled to the ground and one tackler holds the legs and another twists the torso back in the opposite direction. It is just looking to dislocate necks, shoulders, knees or hips. I know these guys are tough but "accidents" happen. Look at the "crusher", "chicken wing" etc. to see what I mean. Bellamy has a lot to answer for in my opinion.
 

possm

Coach
Messages
16,779
Make the attacking side stand 5m behind the play the ball and the defending side stand 10m. Other the player playing the ball and the dummy half, any player within the 5m cannot participate in the play until the next player the ball.

No time to restle; just get back 5m as quick as possible.

This would open up the game forcing players to run onto the ball and make things much more exciting.
 

gypsy

Bench
Messages
4,248
Make the attacking side stand 5m behind the play the ball and the defending side stand 10m. Other the player playing the ball and the dummy half, any player within the 5m cannot participate in the play until the next player the ball.

No time to restle; just get back 5m as quick as possible.

This would open up the game forcing players to run onto the ball and make things much more exciting.

possm, what are you on? seriously...
the refs can barely manage as is, now you want them to police attack and defence offsides?
no no no no no!
 

Breathingfire

Juniors
Messages
1,575
Raises a couple of things I find interesting. 1 I wonder what the play the ball rate was say in the 70's and 80's and 2 I was completely sold by the "experts" that quick play the balls were the hub on which good attack was launched , But if the top three teams in the comp are the three slowest at playing the ball perhaps the lession is either actual time in possession or respect for possession . In answer to your question you take a leaf out of their book and practace your attacking plays until like Melbourne they are Flawless and buying Smith and Slater helps as well. Just my thoughts.

The thing about this article, although interesting and indeed a good read, is that it fails to state just how the play-the-ball is timed. Is it timed from when the player meets the defence or when they hit the ground? Is it how fast they rise to their feet? This is obviously the calculation of averages. For all we know, Melbourne are simply superior at taking advantage of the very few quick play-the-balls they get due to Cam Smith's genius. Maybe Cam makes up for the slow play-the-balls with quick service. There would also only be a matter of microseconds in each play. You would need to isolate the play-the-balls that led to tries to get an accurate indication.

My point is, this article is not comprehensive evidence that quick play the balls are not "the hub on which good attack was launched". In saying that, Cam Smith is brilliant and he always goes the right way and even the best defences have no answer for this guy. I have never seen a player dictate the result quite like Cam. He is a very very clever footballer.
 
Last edited:

TheRev

Coach
Messages
13,053
Noone plays the ball as quickly as Slater imo.. I just want to punch him when he jumps to his feet before the tackle is finished, flopping about looking for a penalty unless you let go early.
 

Minh

First Grade
Messages
8,858
id prefer that we keep the game as is with the wrestling than have the refs intervene and decide a match. theres nothing worse than have penalties blown on a very gray area.

i think the media have overreacted and made a crisis out of nothing. the football is good. we just happened to have a few dull games. that aside its been a good tight season. sometimes the media makes the good the enemy of the perfect.

I think you are right the last thing we want to do is give the referees even more powers to nit pick and decide a game. I'm sick of referees deciding games to be honest, they have a pretty tough job arguably but sometimes it just looks very ominous and I'm not just talking about St George games either, but have seen too many bad refereeing/video ref displays over the years to have any real trust them.
 

Fire

First Grade
Messages
9,669
Interesting read.

TheRev - I agree 100% on your observations on Slater. Protected species. It took a Pom to send him to the bin.

How to beat Melbourne - All 17 have to stay switched on for 80 minutes (easier said than done from the comfort of my computer).

Just a thought on Newcastle - Bennett is coaching a bunch of merkins up there. Gidley got marched 10m a few weeks back for whinging like a little bitch to the ref. Lockyer and Hornby would never do that.
 

Fire

First Grade
Messages
9,669
I think you are right the last thing we want to do is give the referees even more powers to nit pick and decide a game. I'm sick of referees deciding games to be honest, they have a pretty tough job arguably but sometimes it just looks very ominous and I'm not just talking about St George games either, but have seen too many bad refereeing/video ref displays over the years to have any real trust them.

:thumb Agreed. I wouldn't want their job, it's tough. But I don't want to give them more powers to decide a game.

They also need to be 'un-wired'. There's no need for the fans to him them talking to the captains.
 

clifford

Juniors
Messages
178
While we're talkin bout play the ball speed darius has to be one of the slowest there is, always flips round on the ground and then stands up really slowly sometimes even puts his arms in the air appealing before he plays the ball, used to always shit me when he return the ball for us with pace and hit the line hard then just take forever to roll the ball under. Surprised Bennett hasn't been on to him bout it he's been doing it for years
 

Latest posts

Top