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Paris SL Team dead

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
Having poor quality expansion teams fail regularly seriously harms the sport's image, there's no point lying otherwise. There would be no hope of Paris succeeding from scratch, unlike in Australia every scratch team entered into SL has folded in the first two seasons. If a Paris team does well in the French League, then moves up to the Championship and does well there then joins SL then it will be a good thing, but throwing them in with no structure and no fanbase is reckless. They might have backing now but these things never last. If SF wanted to switch lock stock and barrel it would be worth it but this will just be a disposable feeder club for them.

What is it with Australians and suggested made up clubs from areas without much RL to play in SL, people don't suggest having the likes of Singapore or Tokyo, or even Adelaide in the NRL, so why try to wreck SL with teams that fold straight away. SL is not a charity to expansion clubs it has to stay financially viable and be a sporting competition
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
Basically we have to expand or die.
I disagree, the sport isn't going to die if it doesn't expand that's an expansionazi myth, the game isn't that fragile.

However, expansion is a good thing, but this do or die, now or never, SL or nothing approach is horribly destructive and destroys more expansion clubs than anything else. I'm more patient. Given a choice between Toulouse failing in 2012 or being successful in 2015, I'd take the latter every time but I get the impression most people on here would take the former because they can't wait those 3 years. RL in Toulouse isn't that fragile and if it were they couldn't sustain a SL side.

The fact is Toulouse will have a SL side and it will be a good thing. However, it won't be in 2012 as the RFL have said sides need to be in the Championship and either reach a grand final or win the Northern Rail Cup in the three years before and given Toulouse's dreadful performances last year that's very unlikely. Before people moan than on field strength shouldn't matter to a franchise, of course it does. If they get 60 points put on every week they'd soon lose fans and sponsors and fold.

Luckily the playing strength will increase rapidly in the next 5 or so years as when Catalans joined SL lots more juniors took up the game and when they start to come through there will be enough good players for 2 French SL sides and even before then Toulouse will shoot up the Championship table.
 

Jankuloski

Juniors
Messages
799
Everyone complains about a different scenario.

If Toulouse needs to be sacrificed in order for Paris to get in - then f*ck Paris.
If Paris accepts to enter into a lower grade comp first - yes that is the right thing to do.
BUT I gathered that it's like this: Paris has nothing to do with Toulouse AND Paris will give up if it has to wait 5 yrs for a license. THEN I say they should get in the comp as soon as possible.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
I disagree, the sport isn't going to die if it doesn't expand that's an expansionazi myth, the game isn't that fragile.
I agree it wont die, but i think that standards, player payments and possibly crowd levels may drop somewhat, in a worst case scenario.

However, expansion is a good thing, but this do or die, now or never, SL or nothing approach is horribly destructive and destroys more expansion clubs than anything else. I'm more patient. Given a choice between Toulouse failing in 2012 or being successful in 2015, I'd take the latter every time but I get the impression most people on here would take the former because they can't wait those 3 years. RL in Toulouse isn't that fragile and if it were they couldn't sustain a SL side.

The problem is that this isnt really the out and out choice. Whatif the choice was put Toulouse in 2012 or fail by 2015? Toulouse have nothing much to gain by sitting in the second division. They already have been around for a long time. To be honest, they have played previously in competitions that were as strong or stronger than the second division, in the past (the french first division). They had already began signing younger more youthful squads aimed at longer term ESL success, prior to moving into the second division. Whatever boost (or failure for that matter) they get between now and 2015 will be exactly the same as 2012. To be honest, they always should have been admitted in the last lot of franchises and they were certainly always a far better option than the Celtic Crusaders, just to pick one obvious example. If anything, the extra 3 year wait is more likely to do more damage than good, although i would hope/expect that it would have limited long term effect either way.


The fact is Toulouse will have a SL side and it will be a good thing. However, it won't be in 2012 as the RFL have said sides need to be in the Championship and either reach a grand final or win the Northern Rail Cup in the three years before and given Toulouse's dreadful performances last year that's very unlikely. Before people moan than on field strength shouldn't matter to a franchise, of course it does. If they get 60 points put on every week they'd soon lose fans and sponsors and fold.
Wrong, the RFL have said nothing of the sort.

The RFL have said that there will be one spot available for any side that wins a grand final or northern rail cup prior to 2012. I would be surprised if Toulouse dont win won by this time, but leaving this aside, it is irrelevant. They are entitled to earn promotion to Superleague, whether or not they win a grand final, just like the proposed Paris team is. At the moment, it really does seem as if Widnes and Toulouse are the two favourites to go up and that they will add these two extra teams to the existing clubs. I am not sure i agree with this option, but it is the most likely.

Luckily the playing strength will increase rapidly in the next 5 or so years as when Catalans joined SL lots more juniors took up the game and when they start to come through there will be enough good players for 2 French SL sides and even before then Toulouse will shoot up the Championship table.

Toulouse are, imo, very well placed to win the premiership. Despite their ladder position, they were in finals contention for most of the season, with only a poor end of season run (and a stupid points system) taking its toll in the last few rounds. Even without any improvements, i would expect Toulouse to get a better start to the season (proper preparation this time) and a stronger finish (More use to the rigours of the second division and travelling). This alone would possibly be enough to turn their season into a title championship. Also, Toulouse is a very prestigous club, especially by second division standards they did what they did last season without any serious imports and by just relying on mostly local french talent. If it is life and death, i have no doubt that Toulouse could sign 3 or 4 NrL quality australians and that would see them improve enough to qualify quite comfortably, imo.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Everyone complains about a different scenario.

If Toulouse needs to be sacrificed in order for Paris to get in - then f*ck Paris.
If Paris accepts to enter into a lower grade comp first - yes that is the right thing to do.
BUT I gathered that it's like this: Paris has nothing to do with Toulouse AND Paris will give up if it has to wait 5 yrs for a license. THEN I say they should get in the comp as soon as possible.

I think that the real question is not should Paris get in before Toulouse, because i think that Toulouse is the best option outside of Superleague and even better than many from within.

The question is should Paris get in before Widnes (or Wakefield, Castleford, Salford etc). I think it depends on the financial backing and guarantees coming from the Paris side. In all honesty, i cant see how it hurts to start a side and fail, anymore than it hurts to not start a side in the first place. The prime example was the Gold Coast, where it took many times to get things right, but eventually they did. We failed in Wales many times, but even with recent events, we are a hell of a lot better off now, than we were a few years ago, when there were no teams on the radar. paris' failure had zero effect on Catlans success. Gateshead' failure only helped the new Gateshead team. Sheffield's failure sees the game there stronger than it was before Sheffield were ever on the radar. If Paris has the money, the worst case for RL is that the backers lose money and pull out, only to be replaced by someone else (who knows, maybe they will relocate to another French area, or maybe they will be replaced by a heartland or other expansion club). The game in Paris at worst will get massive advertising and exposure in an important market that may or may not take to the game. At best, it is the catalyst for bringing the French up to speed as a superpower of the game and giving rugby leage a bona fide European league.
 

The Tank

Bench
Messages
4,562
That's not a polite way to respond to a very valid point. Talk of Paris in SL in 2012 is just reckless and I'd have thought the situation with Crusaders would prove that the expanionazi approach is highly flawed. Toulouse will be in SL one day, but unless they improve their on field performances massively next year I suspect 2015 is more realistic than 2012

If he wasn't a troll you'd have a point.
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
The problem is that this isnt really the out and out choice. Whatif the choice was put Toulouse in 2012 or fail by 2015? Toulouse have nothing much to gain by sitting in the second division. They already have been around for a long time. To be honest, they have played previously in competitions that were as strong or stronger than the second division, in the past (the french first division). They had already began signing younger more youthful squads aimed at longer term ESL success, prior to moving into the second division. Whatever boost (or failure for that matter) they get between now and 2015 will be exactly the same as 2012. To be honest, they always should have been admitted in the last lot of franchises and they were certainly always a far better option than the Celtic Crusaders, just to pick one obvious example. If anything, the extra 3 year wait is more likely to do more damage than good, although i would hope/expect that it would have limited long term effect either way.
Toulouse are an established club, an extra 3 years of preparation won't ruin them, but being pushed up too soon may. If there were the talent for them to play in SL then with very little effort they'd be at the top of the Championship so either they're deliberately putting as little effort into their on field team as possible or there's not the talent there, either way it doesn't look good. Finishing in a relegation spot in the Championship doesn't show a SL candidate. However, if they invest heavily next year then things could change and if they meet those criteria I would support their inclusion as they seem to get decent enough support. However, next year is their last chance as the franchises are awarded before the end of the 2011 season. While the French first division has been stronger than the Championship in the past, now it would be lucky to be as strong as the third tier Championship 1.

Wrong, the RFL have said nothing of the sort.

The RFL have said that there will be one spot available for any side that wins a grand final or northern rail cup prior to 2012. I would be surprised if Toulouse dont win won by this time, but leaving this aside, it is irrelevant. They are entitled to earn promotion to Superleague, whether or not they win a grand final, just like the proposed Paris team is. At the moment, it really does seem as if Widnes and Toulouse are the two favourites to go up and that they will add these two extra teams to the existing clubs. I am not sure i agree with this option, but it is the most likely.
The RFL have said they expect to keep the numbers the same and to bring in at least one team to replace one existing one. Assuming Widnes replacing Crusaders is a given then this will mean that Toulouse have to make a grand final or win the NRC next season and to put in a more impressive bid than the 13th best SL side (probably Salford), which is doable but only if they get the on field right. Otherwise they'd be the favourites to get the guaranteed spot for 2015. A compromise could have been to have Toulouse in the Lord Derby Cup and let the winners of that apply for a SL license, but it wasn't thought of.

http://forums.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php?t=436805&start=0

http://www.superleague.co.uk/article.php?id=14771

While it's not 100% it will stay at 14 it is a virtual certainty (whatever trolls like Albert say) as it is already overstretched a little and in these economic times they have to be more prudent (I can't find the exact link but Neil Wood said this)
 

jim_57

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,360
The fact is Toulouse will have a SL side and it will be a good thing. However, it won't be in 2012 as the RFL have said sides need to be in the Championship and either reach a grand final or win the Northern Rail Cup in the three years before and given Toulouse's dreadful performances last year that's very unlikely. Before people moan than on field strength shouldn't matter to a franchise, of course it does. If they get 60 points put on every week they'd soon lose fans and sponsors and fold.

Luckily the playing strength will increase rapidly in the next 5 or so years as when Catalans joined SL lots more juniors took up the game and when they start to come through there will be enough good players for 2 French SL sides and even before then Toulouse will shoot up the Championship table.

I don't think on-field performance should be as strict as it is, not to say decent level isn't necessary. Whoever makes the step up is going to keep a good core of their best Championship players and spend up on imports, those I'm afraid are the facts. Why should we expect Widnes, Toulouse, Barrow etc. to step up with little help from imports when some top clubs like Wigan, Wakefield etc are just as bad, maybe worse.

I honestly don't believe that any new club that steps up in 2012 is going to be beaten by 60 every week be it Toulouse, Barrow or Widnes. By 2012 all three should be able to assemble sides to atleast better Celtic's effort this year and even they weren't flogged all that often early-mid year.

Any team that gets promoted will also have the advantage of SL players looking for new clubs because their's has been relagated. If Wakey get relegated then players like Brough, Grix, Blanch etc would all have to find a new club presumabley.

Toulouse will have the advantage of Catalans overflow aswell as their own juniors development and that of other Elite clubs. Even now Catalans are getting an overflow of players, Mounis who I rate very highly looks likely to spend the season on the bench or out of the side. In years coming Barthau or Gigot will make the step up to partner Bosc in the halves, one of them will surely be a target for Toulouse in coming years. It would be good to see both French SL sides having French halves pairings and i can see that happening with Bosc and Barthau at Catlans and Villegas and Gigot at Toulouse. By 2012 there will be more then enough talent to fill another French SL side IMHO.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Toulouse are an established club, an extra 3 years of preparation won't ruin them, but being pushed up too soon may. If there were the talent for them to play in SL then with very little effort they'd be at the top of the Championship so either they're deliberately putting as little effort into their on field team as possible or there's not the talent there, either way it doesn't look good. Finishing in a relegation spot in the Championship doesn't show a SL candidate. However, if they invest heavily next year then things could change and if they meet those criteria I would support their inclusion as they seem to get decent enough support. However, next year is their last chance as the franchises are awarded before the end of the 2011 season. While the French first division has been stronger than the Championship in the past, now it would be lucky to be as strong as the third tier Championship 1.
Well you do seem to be forgetting that while they are not at the top of the championship, they were not at the top of the French first division either! They have picked a largely home grown side with younger players matched with Toulouse club players. There are still quite a few French players (Caltalans overflow and French league older stars) who could add to the quality of the team and help them win the NL championship. This wouldnt help them in the ESL though, as ESL is a huge step up. They are best off keeping and blooding young players, like they have done and only spending money on the Quality imports when they have to.

You say three years wont kill them, which it wont, but it might force them back to the French league and kill off their ambitions for the ESL. I am undecided as to whether ESL will work, but it is certainly worth a shot if that is what they want and think they can do. Their case is as strong as it will ever be. 3 years is of zero use to Toulouse, in all honesty, even this last weight is of limited value only. Hopefully though they may unearth a few young stars in the progress.

The RFL have said they expect to keep the numbers the same and to bring in at least one team to replace one existing one. Assuming Widnes replacing Crusaders is a given then this will mean that Toulouse have to make a grand final or win the NRC next season and to put in a more impressive bid than the 13th best SL side (probably Salford), which is doable but only if they get the on field right. Otherwise they'd be the favourites to get the guaranteed spot for 2015. A compromise could have been to have Toulouse in the Lord Derby Cup and let the winners of that apply for a SL license, but it wasn't thought of.

http://forums.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php?t=436805&start=0

http://www.superleague.co.uk/article.php?id=14771
The RFL have been quite consistent and that article confirms it. One place will be given to one Championship club if it meets strict criteria. That does not stop another place from applying. Toulouse can still get in, even without winning a championship. So can Paris, Lezignan, Villeneuve, Wellington Orcas, NOrth Sydney Bears or anyone else who puts forth a good case.

While it's not 100% it will stay at 14 it is a virtual certainty (whatever trolls like Albert say) as it is already overstretched a little and in these economic times they have to be more prudent (I can't find the exact link but Neil Wood said this)

To be honest, i think that it probably needs to stay at 14, unless some clubs make some huge improvements. I even wouldnt mind 12. 12 clubs sounds bad, but it would mean 12 strong clubs and more importantly it would mean that there would be an awesome 12 club National league. This would presumably include the likes of Wakefield, Widnes, Salford, Celtic, Barrow, Leigh, Sheffield, etc and possibly even another French side to replace Toulouse.
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
3 years is of zero use to Toulouse, in all honesty, even this last weight is of limited value only. Hopefully though they may unearth a few young stars in the progress.
It is of use as it gives them more time to play at a higher level and more importantly more of the juniors that got into the game with Catalans joining SL will be coming through.

The RFL have been quite consistent and that article confirms it. One place will be given to one Championship club if it meets strict criteria. That does not stop another place from applying. Toulouse can still get in, even without winning a championship. So can Paris, Lezignan, Villeneuve, Wellington Orcas, NOrth Sydney Bears or anyone else who puts forth a good case.
I'm not aware of them saying noone else has to meet the criteria, they have always talked about teams that apply need to meet the criteria. If they were to not apply them though Toulouse would still need to finish near the top, another season of 10th would be unacceptable.

To be honest, i think that it probably needs to stay at 14, unless some clubs make some huge improvements. I even wouldnt mind 12. 12 clubs sounds bad, but it would mean 12 strong clubs and more importantly it would mean that there would be an awesome 12 club National league. This would presumably include the likes of Wakefield, Widnes, Salford, Celtic, Barrow, Leigh, Sheffield, etc and possibly even another French side to replace Toulouse.
If they don't expand it makes it harder for Toulouse to get in. 12 could be a better idea in some ways, though Toulouse would then have zero chance of getting in
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
I don't think on-field performance should be as strict as it is, not to say decent level isn't necessary. Whoever makes the step up is going to keep a good core of their best Championship players and spend up on imports, those I'm afraid are the facts. Why should we expect Widnes, Toulouse, Barrow etc. to step up with little help from imports when some top clubs like Wigan, Wakefield etc are just as bad, maybe worse.

I honestly don't believe that any new club that steps up in 2012 is going to be beaten by 60 every week be it Toulouse, Barrow or Widnes. By 2012 all three should be able to assemble sides to atleast better Celtic's effort this year and even they weren't flogged all that often early-mid year.
If a team from the top brings in some good players then yes they could finish a respectable bottom (or 12th, 13th) in their first season and build on it, but for a team from 10th brings in some imports then it just wouldn't work. Of course Toulouse would have about 8 or 9 imports, but they need the rest of a squad of suitable French players (not necessarily SL standard now, but top of Championship standard that could be SL standard with better coaching and full time training)
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
It is of use as it gives them more time to play at a higher level and more importantly more of the juniors that got into the game with Catalans joining SL will be coming through.

But the NL1, isnt that much better than the Old French first division. France have had some good young sides for a while now, from what i recall, and they are getting better. The three years will make the side 3 years older, but what are their ages now? it is okay for the 15 -18 year olds to get three years older, but then again, the 25-30 year old players are not going to be much better in 3 years. Realistically, the SL has 2 advantages, firstly it raises the interest, crowds and sponsorship (though this may be offset by the increased wages bill) and secondly, Those that are good enough to make the first division side improve massive by playing with and against players who are at a higher skill level. I personally find it highly unlikely, even if the French locals improve enough in 3 years to win or even dominate the NL1, that they will suddenly be competive in SL without imports. If Toulouse win the NL1 next year, would you think that they would be suddenly ready for Super League?

I'm not aware of them saying noone else has to meet the criteria, they have always talked about teams that apply need to meet the criteria. If they were to not apply them though Toulouse would still need to finish near the top, another season of 10th would be unacceptable.
It has been forgotten on the internet, but i can recall quite clearly that there was to be one guaranteed spot for a NL1 team that wins a trophy, but this was not to stop any other team from applying. This is why Paris coudl still get in and so could Toulouse, if they put another case forward.

If they don't expand it makes it harder for Toulouse to get in. 12 could be a better idea in some ways, though Toulouse would then have zero chance of getting in

It definitely makes it harder, but I dont think Zero is correct. Going to 14 was a poor decision, imo. they worked hard to get down to 12 and i thought standards were really starting to improve. Going up to 14 was a poor move.

If 2 new clubs come in, you would think that Toulouse would be a certainty. If status quo remains, it is hard. Certainly Widnes have put in a good shout this year, but they need to continue there work. It will be interesting to see if Toulouse can build on their season, both on and off the pitch, I think that Toulouse can with the right work get to the stage where their case is simply too strong to ignore. (I actually think it already is, but i also thought it was at the last date). Certainly the selection of Celtic and Salford over them was puzzling and in hindsight, quite a poor decision.
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
But the NL1, isnt that much better than the Old French first division.
It wasn't, but is a much higher standard now.

If Toulouse win the NL1 next year, would you think that they would be suddenly ready for Super League?
Basically yes, or if they're runners up, because the only objection I have to them joining SL is the playing standard, 10th in the Championship doesn't scream SL to me.

It has been forgotten on the internet, but i can recall quite clearly that there was to be one guaranteed spot for a NL1 team that wins a trophy, but this was not to stop any other team from applying. This is why Paris coudl still get in and so could Toulouse, if they put another case forward.
As far as I know everyone has to meet the criteria, but depends on who you believe as the RFL announcement is deliberately vague so they can change the rules as and when it suits. Doubt whether a team that isn't in the Championship (or possibly the French Elite) would be allowed to apply though, as last time they banned applications from clubs that didn't play in NL1 or the French Elite, which would seem to rule out Paris.

It definitely makes it harder, but I dont think Zero is correct. Going to 14 was a poor decision, imo. they worked hard to get down to 12 and i thought standards were really starting to improve. Going up to 14 was a poor move.
Zero unless they meet the full playing criteria might be fairer as they won't chuck out 4 sides.

If 2 new clubs come in, you would think that Toulouse would be a certainty. If status quo remains, it is hard. Certainly Widnes have put in a good shout this year, but they need to continue there work. It will be interesting to see if Toulouse can build on their season, both on and off the pitch, I think that Toulouse can with the right work get to the stage where their case is simply too strong to ignore. (I actually think it already is, but i also thought it was at the last date). Certainly the selection of Celtic and Salford over them was puzzling and in hindsight, quite a poor decision.
Yeah if 2 clubs come in I can't see anyone bar Toulouse being the second, though I expect one to go in and one out (Widnes in, Crusaders out), with Toulouse to be the one in in 2015 (unless the league expands then, then someone else in too). Yeah the selection of Crusaders defied belief, though Toulouse were presumably rejected as they went from 2nd to 7th in French Elite which was not just a very bad performance but showed they seemed to be going backwards. Also the RFL said they'd struggle to meet some financial projections, but I got the impression that was a secondary reason
 

jim_57

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,360
If a team from the top brings in some good players then yes they could finish a respectable bottom (or 12th, 13th) in their first season and build on it, but for a team from 10th brings in some imports then it just wouldn't work. Of course Toulouse would have about 8 or 9 imports, but they need the rest of a squad of suitable French players (not necessarily SL standard now, but top of Championship standard that could be SL standard with better coaching and full time training)

That's exactly right, we just have a difference of opinion on whether the players are there or not. From what I've seen I beleive there is, watching France V NZ was proof of that with several semi-pro players showing they have the talent just not the fitness. It's easy to say a player isn't SL standard when he doesn't have the oppurtunity to be.

The player pool will only grow in years to come and IMO you could already make a team worthy of SL out of French players in semi-pro football or who don't regularily get a game for Catalans.
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
The player pool will only grow in years to come and IMO you could already make a team worthy of SL out of French players in semi-pro football or who don't regularily get a game for Catalans.
I think if you drafted the Catalans players, those at Toulouse and the best of the Elite out you could probably support 2 French SL clubs, but this couldn't be done, so to start with they'd have the players not good enough for Catalans (or a couple they bought from them).

In some ways I think bringing Catalans and Toulouse in together would have been a good thing, though don't think they could have done it when they brought Catalans in then, so maybe not
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
It wasn't, but is a much higher standard now.
I still think this is overstated. I have to admit though, as the years pass on, the Challenge cup results are tending to back up your position. In theory, the overflow from Toulouse and Cats should improve the French 1st division each year, so hopefully we will see some results shift back towards the French.

Basically yes, or if they're runners up, because the only objection I have to them joining SL is the playing standard, 10th in the Championship doesn't scream SL to me.

This is where we disagree. If Toulouse were to spend money on say 5 or 6 imports and finish say runners up in the first division with players imported like Duggan, Van Dyk, Hannay etc (like Celtic did), i dont see how this would or should help their bid in the slightest. They are best served by using local French players, which is what they have done. They finished 10th which was disappointing, but they were much higher for most of the season, they would have finished higher if the first division used a proper league table finish. To put it another way, they were from memory about 2 or 3 wins away from a finals appearance. Would it have really strengthened their case that much if they had a few bad referee decisions (or from memory good referee decisions) go their way? I think there strength lays outside of their on field performance, as does that of Widnes, who are the other side who have mounted a good case for superleague. Their potential lies in corporate strength, population and location. This is most important to any club coming in.

As far as I know everyone has to meet the criteria, but depends on who you believe as the RFL announcement is deliberately vague so they can change the rules as and when it suits. Doubt whether a team that isn't in the Championship (or possibly the French Elite) would be allowed to apply though, as last time they banned applications from clubs that didn't play in NL1 or the French Elite, which would seem to rule out Paris.
I must admit i cant remember the banning of applications. I though there was talk of the Southern Orcas applying last time. The concept of Toulouse playing in NL1 was that it would give them a shot at the guaranteed extra birth. There was also much talk before they joined that they would stay in the French first division and apply from there.
Zero unless they meet the full playing criteria might be fairer as they won't chuck out 4 sides.
Personally, i dont think this will become an issue because i think they will meet the criteria. But, let us just be a bit (perhaps unrealistically) optimistic. Let us suppose Toulouse, who were accepted at the last minute this year, have planned to have a massive year this year. They have maintained their policy of picking the best French players around and blood mostly under 18-21 players and finish in a competitive say 6th or 7th position just missing out on the playoffs. But, with their inciteful planning, they have increased their marketing budget, signed massive sponsors including massive committments to come in when/if they are promoted to ESL, secured a great stadium and increased crowds to a level above the best English clubs in the first division and the worst in the ESL. In these circumstances they would actually be a certainty for inclusion.

Yeah if 2 clubs come in I can't see anyone bar Toulouse being the second, though I expect one to go in and one out (Widnes in, Crusaders out), with Toulouse to be the one in in 2015 (unless the league expands then, then someone else in too). Yeah the selection of Crusaders defied belief, though Toulouse were presumably rejected as they went from 2nd to 7th in French Elite which was not just a very bad performance but showed they seemed to be going backwards. Also the RFL said they'd struggle to meet some financial projections, but I got the impression that was a secondary reason

It shows the whole problem with the way the selections were made. They can sugar coat it all they like, but the RFL took the easy way out and used on field success as the sole criteria, imo. This was so dissappointing after they tough decisions they had made to reduce the number of teams in the first place. This is why the ability to win the NL1 should have virtually no bearing on the next franchise decision. It is quite ironic, i think, that people so often use the Promotion/Relegation concept to criticise Celtic's promotion, but they actually earned promotion under this system! Likewise, i think it ridiculous that Toulouse were denied a spot because they finished 7th (which incidentally is not much better than 10th in NL1 so maybe French standards are a little better than what is recognised?). The reality of them finishing 7th was that they cut high paid experienced players in favour of younger cheaper players, becuase the younger players would have more chance of playing in the ESL. Put bluntly, they planned for the future (they could have easily chased and signed the best French players and dominated the division, but it would have done nothing for the club or the game in france, it actually would have sent them backwards). The same is true of their situation now, they need to be allowed to plan for long term success not short term. The team who gets the best results will not necessarilly unearth the most ESL level players.

If Toulouse were short on the financial projections side, well thatis perhaps a valid reason for denying them a place (and it could still be). I dont know about this side of things but i can only assume that it will be okay, based on a few basic assumptions.
 

jim_57

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,360
I think if you drafted the Catalans players, those at Toulouse and the best of the Elite out you could probably support 2 French SL clubs, but this couldn't be done, so to start with they'd have the players not good enough for Catalans (or a couple they bought from them).

In some ways I think bringing Catalans and Toulouse in together would have been a good thing, though don't think they could have done it when they brought Catalans in then, so maybe not

Again it's a simple situation of us disagreeing that the current players on offer up up to the standard or not. OK here's a complete hypothetical but how about this for a team without imports, composed of French players from Toulouse, Elite and players with limited oppurtunities at Catalans.

1. Escare
2. Vaccari
3. Duport
4. Planas
5. Piquemal
6. Villegas
7. Greseque
8. Martins
9. K Bentley
10. Griffi
11. Touxagas
12. Anselme
13. Mounis
14. Rinaldi
15. Gout
16. Maria
17. Quintilla
18. Gigot
19. Barthau
20. Soubeyras
21. Gaush
22. Canton
23. Mencarini

Add a 6-8 imports to fill some weak spots and that team would be reasonably competitive IMO. Ofcourse not all will be possible, I imagine Gigot or Barthau will have a place at Catalans by 2012 and some won't come even with the lure of SL.
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
This is where we disagree. If Toulouse were to spend money on say 5 or 6 imports and finish say runners up in the first division with players imported like Duggan, Van Dyk, Hannay etc (like Celtic did), i dont see how this would or should help their bid in the slightest.
True, but next year they are restricted to 2 imports (other clubs have 1). This year they finished 10th with 5 imports. If a mostly French side finishes top 2, then this would be a very impressive bid, so it would make a huge difference

I must admit i cant remember the banning of applications. I though there was talk of the Southern Orcas applying last time. The concept of Toulouse playing in NL1 was that it would give them a shot at the guaranteed extra birth. There was also much talk before they joined that they would stay in the French first division and apply from there.
It was a big issue because Crusaders had to get promoted to be allowed to apply for a license (which is the right thing as moving a team up two divisions is reckless, though they still shouldn't have got one). I am glad the Southern Orcas bid weren't allowed to apply as it is just about the worst idea I have ever heard (though some suggestions on here are similar) and I was disgusted with the number of people on here that supported in on the grounds that the NRL already has a NZ team so SL should have the next one. This attitude of being expansionazis in SL and flatcappers in the NRL is all too common among Australians, when the NRL should find it easier to expand

Personally, i dont think this will become an issue because i think they will meet the criteria. But, let us just be a bit (perhaps unrealistically) optimistic. Let us suppose Toulouse, who were accepted at the last minute this year, have planned to have a massive year this year. They have maintained their policy of picking the best French players around and blood mostly under 18-21 players and finish in a competitive say 6th or 7th position just missing out on the playoffs. But, with their inciteful planning, they have increased their marketing budget, signed massive sponsors including massive committments to come in when/if they are promoted to ESL, secured a great stadium and increased crowds to a level above the best English clubs in the first division and the worst in the ESL. In these circumstances they would actually be a certainty for inclusion.
That wouldn't be meeting the playing criteria. Depending on whether they'd be eligible I think they'd stand a chance of getting in a 14 team league, but in this hypothetical 12 team league they'd still stand no chance as they'd have to cut 4 teams to get them in which wouldn't happen.

It shows the whole problem with the way the selections were made. They can sugar coat it all they like, but the RFL took the easy way out and used on field success as the sole criteria, imo.
Largely but not entirely, had Crusaders not finished 2nd they'd probably have still had them in. But 7th in the French league was just too poor to take a chance on if it were to risk them collapsing (which they would if they got hammered)

This was so dissappointing after they tough decisions they had made to reduce the number of teams in the first place.
They didn't make any tough decisions, they just arbitrarily decided to take the top 10 from an already finished season and add Paris and London. They then kept promotion and relegation and ruined a load of clubs in the process.

This is why the ability to win the NL1 should have virtually no bearing on the next franchise decision. It is quite ironic, i think, that people so often use the Promotion/Relegation concept to criticise Celtic's promotion, but they actually earned promotion under this system!
Only if the league had expanded, but they'd have gone straight back down again.

Likewise, i think it ridiculous that Toulouse were denied a spot because they finished 7th (which incidentally is not much better than 10th in NL1 so maybe French standards are a little better than what is recognised?).
They only didn't finish bottom because Doncaster were a basket case, but they also got smashed to start off with in the Championship before they made some signings from the French Elite and picked up, so was a better team than the one that finished 7th

The reality of them finishing 7th was that they cut high paid experienced players in favour of younger cheaper players, becuase the younger players would have more chance of playing in the ESL. Put bluntly, they planned for the future (they could have easily chased and signed the best French players and dominated the division, but it would have done nothing for the club or the game in france, it actually would have sent them backwards). The same is true of their situation now, they need to be allowed to plan for long term success not short term. The team who gets the best results will not necessarilly unearth the most ESL level players.
True, but to play all of those players the year before SL is reckless as they wouldn't be able to play them in SL. If they were planning for SL in say 5 years it would be the best plan, but not 1 year.
 
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