Positional changes over origin

[Pomoz]

Of course playing behind a dominant pack helps Coote, you don't think playing for the best team in the comp behind the best forward pack helps him score and create tries and linebreaks?

The devils in the detail Betcats. If you read my post again you will note that I only referred to defence, catching and kick returns. I actually said that Moylan is a better ball player and did not discuss tries and assists.

Playing in a dominant team will help your confidence, it goes without saying and will help you score tries because they are, well, dominant. Of course that doesn't explain how Coote scored 12 tries in 15 appearances in 2011 when Penrith finished 12th. 2012 9 tries, 24 appearances, we finished 15th. In 2010 he scored 17 tries in 20 appearances and we finished 2nd. Oh, how we forget so quickly what a champion player he was. Tiny, fragile, but a champion.

As for as making tackles by the eye Coote is better.

Yep. Defence is not Moyza's strong point, but as I said, Lockyer seems to be well thought of in spite of a similar weakness.

Coote is doing less of it therefore is fresher when he is called to tackle.

Hmm. Good theory but not true in a meaningful manner. After 10 rounds the Cowboys have made 3,155 tackles and the Panthers have made 3187 tackles. That is an extra 3.2 tackles a game.

It is also interesting to note that the dominant pack of the Cowboys has delivered 15,840m after 10 rounds. The Panthers have delivered 15,162m which represents 67.8m less per game. I would say their dominance is worth one extra set per game. Not much at all. The Panthers sit about 6th in all run metres so they are giving a good account of themselves and no team will look forward to playing them.

Moylan certainly doesn't have the knack for chasing down attacking kicks but defending them I cant split them. Moylan positionally is as good as it gets and he doesn't drop them, add to that he is bigger and has a better leap from what we have seen and it think it was a fair comment.

Can't get any stats on this at all. So we are down to using our eyes and having to agree to disagree.

For the record, I really rate Moylan and I would love to see him at 5/8th. His lack of pace and kick return metres (the same weakness Coote has since his run of injuries) means he will never be an elite level fullback. It doesn't hurt as too much at the moment because DZW and Mansour are taking up the slack from when we get a poor start to our sets from kick returns. I think Feldt and Winterstein are doing something similar for the Cowboys to offset Coote's modest kick returns.

Just by way of illustration of why I think people have short memories here, in 2010 Coote averaged 81.25 kick return metres per game. The best Moylan has delivered in any season is 56.6 in 2013.

It's really all about Moylan's vision and passing, which are better than nearly every half in the NRL and that's why I think he needs to move to 5/8. If he can develop a good kicking game, he could really become a superstar.

 

[Pomoz]

I don't buy this suggestion that Coote was fantastic when he was with us. He was ok. Good at fielding/attacking kicks, good attitude and support play but slow and weak running the ball and not really that involved with ball playing. Most people wanted Flash at the back and rightly so.

Yeah I was thinking the same but I didn't really have much to argue it with. He was certainly not close to the form he is in now. Even rookie Moylan was more favoured then Coote was when they overlapped here.

He goes to the best team in the comp and hits career best form but of course playing for the best team does not have anything to do with that form, Really?? That is just silly. He certainly deserves credit for the improvement he has shown im not trying to take that away from him but he his hardly the first player to perform better in a great team, most players will.

This is just a complete disservice to Lachlan Coote and is way off the mark. He busted his body for the Panthers and was a great player for us until injuries got the better of him. Billy Slater he ain't and he pretty much didn't play for two years in 2013 (6 games) and 2014 (0 games). But his performances before that were excellent.

17 tries in 2010, 12 tries in 2011 in only 15 appearances. 9 tries in 2012 and 9 try assists when we finished second from bottom. Kick return metres per game at a high of 81m per game in 2010 (Moylan hasn't got even close to this figure, ever).

We don't need to reinvent history and criticise Coote to say we like Moyza, he deserves better than that.

 

[betcats]

The devils in the detail Betcats. If you read my post again you will note that I only referred to defence, catching and kick returns. I actually said that Moylan is a better ball player and did not discuss tries and assists.

Playing in a dominant team will help your confidence, it goes without saying and will help you score tries because they are, well, dominant. Of course that doesn't explain how Coote scored 12 tries in 15 appearances in 2011 when Penrith finished 12th. 2012 9 tries, 24 appearances, we finished 15th. In 2010 he scored 17 tries in 20 appearances and we finished 2nd. Oh, how we forget so quickly what a champion player he was. Tiny, fragile, but a champion.

Yep. Defence is not Moyza's strong point, but as I said, Lockyer seems to be well thought of in spite of a similar weakness.

Hmm. Good theory but not true in a meaningful manner. After 10 rounds the Cowboys have made 3,155 tackles and the Panthers have made 3187 tackles. That is an extra 3.2 tackles a game.

It is also interesting to note that the dominant pack of the Cowboys has delivered 15,840m after 10 rounds. The Panthers have delivered 15,162m which represents 67.8m less per game. I would say their dominance is worth one extra set per game. Not much at all. The Panthers sit about 6th in all run metres so they are giving a good account of themselves and no team will look forward to playing them.

Can't get any stats on this at all. So we are down to using our eyes and having to agree to disagree.

For the record, I really rate Moylan and I would love to see him at 5/8th. His lack of pace and kick return metres (the same weakness Coote has since his run of injuries) means he will never be an elite level fullback. It doesn't hurt as too much at the moment because DZW and Mansour are taking up the slack from when we get a poor start to our sets from kick returns. I think Feldt and Winterstein are doing something similar for the Cowboys to offset Coote's modest kick returns.

Just by way of illustration of why I think people have short memories here, in 2010 Coote averaged 81.25 kick return metres per game. The best Moylan has delivered in any season is 56.6 in 2013.

It's really all about Moylan's vision and passing, which are better than nearly every half in the NRL and that's why I think he needs to move to 5/8. If he can develop a good kicking game, he could really become a superstar.

Have you watched the Cowboys play this season? They have been on another level to us so far are we really going to debate that? It's about more than just their metresthats half the game at most, they have been a much better team than us, only the Broncos and sharks are close to them. Coote is a fantastic FB im not bagging him there's just no way I think he is better player then Moylan. He is in career best form atm and no matter how you look at it Moylan is playing atleast as good as he is coming a long lay off, Moylans still got a brace on his hand I don't even think he is at his best yet for the season and he has the pressure of being our captain and best player, Coote is what fifth best Cowboys player at best? As if it isn't an easier job being the Cowboys FB then ours i find it a bit ridiculous you would disagree.

 

[TheStrategist]

The devils in the detail Betcats. If you read my post again you will note that I only referred to defence, catching and kick returns. I actually said that Moylan is a better ball player and did not discuss tries and assists.

Playing in a dominant team will help your confidence, it goes without saying and will help you score tries because they are, well, dominant. Of course that doesn't explain how Coote scored 12 tries in 15 appearances in 2011 when Penrith finished 12th. 2012 9 tries, 24 appearances, we finished 15th. In 2010 he scored 17 tries in 20 appearances and we finished 2nd. Oh, how we forget so quickly what a champion player he was. Tiny, fragile, but a champion.

Yep. Defence is not Moyza's strong point, but as I said, Lockyer seems to be well thought of in spite of a similar weakness.

Hmm. Good theory but not true in a meaningful manner. After 10 rounds the Cowboys have made 3,155 tackles and the Panthers have made 3187 tackles. That is an extra 3.2 tackles a game.

It is also interesting to note that the dominant pack of the Cowboys has delivered 15,840m after 10 rounds. The Panthers have delivered 15,162m which represents 67.8m less per game. I would say their dominance is worth one extra set per game. Not much at all. The Panthers sit about 6th in all run metres so they are giving a good account of themselves and no team will look forward to playing them.

Can't get any stats on this at all. So we are down to using our eyes and having to agree to disagree.

For the record, I really rate Moylan and I would love to see him at 5/8th. His lack of pace and kick return metres (the same weakness Coote has since his run of injuries) means he will never be an elite level fullback. It doesn't hurt as too much at the moment because DZW and Mansour are taking up the slack from when we get a poor start to our sets from kick returns. I think Feldt and Winterstein are doing something similar for the Cowboys to offset Coote's modest kick returns.

Just by way of illustration of why I think people have short memories here, in 2010 Coote averaged 81.25 kick return metres per game. The best Moylan has delivered in any season is 56.6 in 2013.

It's really all about Moylan's vision and passing, which are better than nearly every half in the NRL and that's why I think he needs to move to 5/8. If he can develop a good kicking game, he could really become a superstar.

Well said dude... get onto Panthers management about it.. won't happen unless they hear the fans uproar over poor decisions made by Griffin, that is the future right there.. 6. Moylan 7. TMM (both secured long term and can work up a cyclone as a combo over the years)

 

[maple_69]

Our options are Moylan/Martin and Soward/Wallace/Cleary.
Moylan and Martin would be a disaster kicking wise, particularly with no Hooker (assuming its Seg) or fullback (assuming its DWZ or Hiku) who has a significant kicking game.

 

[TheStrategist]

Our options are Moylan/Martin and Soward/Wallace/Cleary.
Moylan and Martin would be a disaster kicking wise, particularly with no Hooker (assuming its Seg) or fullback (assuming its DWZ or Hiku) who has a significant kicking game.

Moylan has pin point kicking it's just he needs to get as much experience under his belt at 5/8 this season which would improve his kicking game and allow him to guide TMM later on in September when he returns from Injury, have Wallace as Hooker with Segs on the bench which allows Wallace to step in for support if needed for the rest of the season?

Which then you have your 2 star playmakers for the future primed and ready to go for next season or you never know.. might even win the premiership if Moyza is allowed to guide the team at 5/8 which he has been doing verbally at Fullback.. he will truly shine at 5/8 and DWZ is a fullback

 

[Big Mick]

Moylan isn't ready defensively yet to play five-eight in first grade.

Just let him find his feet again. After all up until 4 weeks ago he hadn't played in around a year.

He is destined for that position...as identified by him training there in the off-season but right now we mightn't need him there. Especially if TMM/Cleary continue to develop.
Let him be the best fullback he can be right now and quit pouring on the pressure on him being a five-eight right away.

I don't have doubt he'll be a good five-eight...he just needs to work on his long kicking game and finding space along with his defense.

 

[umina panther]

The world's best half JT can't tackle for shit, Locky was a speed bump too. Id back Moylan to defend better than both those all time greats

 

[Doomednow]

Yeah people seem to pretend defense is super important with halves/fullbacks when really its an afterthought.

 

[Pomoz]

Moylan isn't ready defensively yet to play five-eight in first grade.

Just let him find his feet again. After all up until 4 weeks ago he hadn't played in around a year.

He is destined for that position...as identified by him training there in the off-season but right now we mightn't need him there. Especially if TMM/Cleary continue to develop.
Let him be the best fullback he can be right now and quit pouring on the pressure on him being a five-eight right away.

I don't have doubt he'll be a good five-eight...he just needs to work on his long kicking game and finding space along with his defense.

Big Mick I agree with your sentiment, i.e. don't rush him, but I can't agree about the defensive part. So many 5/8's are terrible defenders - Maloney and Lockyer to name two, yet are influential because of what else they bring. If Soward lost his place for Moylan, would our defence be any worse?

 

[mxlegend99]

It's also easier to defend in the line with people around you then it is as a last line of defence. Fullbacks are often left in a position where it really takes a miracle to make a tackle.

Moylan is an able defender. But most of his missed tackles occur on players that area already through the line. Often with support where a fullback is worried about fully committing to one player and leaving the other open.

He's not going to make 50 tackles with no misses. But I would back him to have a far more effective tackle rate then Jamie Soward.

 

[Luke Bowden]

Why move Moylan when we have TMM and Cleary??? Makes no sense.

 

[billypilgrimnz]

Why move Moylan when we have TMM and Cleary??? Makes no sense.

What, one guy who has played one (1!) NSW Cup game, and another who has played 6 undistinguished (but not bad, either) first grade games? We are just going to go all in on them?

Wouldn't it more sense, given that we also have a wealth of fullback talent, to give Moylan a shot and actually give Cleary more than a year and a half in U20s to develop before annointing him the future of our club?

 

[maple_69]

He's attacking as a five eighth as it is. I think they are grooming him to be able to take over as five eighth if Cleary/Martin don't come off. If they do, he is looking like controlling the game from the back with two young halves. You can tell he's done a lot of video work while he was out as he is stepping up and organizing the defence well. He has made a number of one one one try savers this year which is progress and his positioning and safety under the high ball is excellent.

I'd be happy to see him playing five eighth in attack with DWZ at fullback running on the hip of Cartwrighr and co. Hopefully we get some games that open up a bit and Moylan gets a spin with some long kicking. I don't think there's any urgent need for a change. He's about to be picked as NSW fullback after 6 games back.

 

[Luke Bowden]

What, one guy who has played one (1!) NSW Cup game, and another who has played 6 undistinguished (but not bad, either) first grade games? We are just going to go all in on them?

Wouldn't it more sense, given that we also have a wealth of fullback talent, to give Moylan a shot and actually give Cleary more than a year and a half in U20s to develop before annointing him the future of our club?

Wealth in fullback talent?? DWZ is ok at Fullback, but a better winger and Edwards is further from NRL than TMM or Cleary.

I think you'll find that we will still have at least Soward next year, Cleary and TMM will have heaps of time.

 

[umina panther]

Why is Edwards further away? He'd be my winger when Mansour gets named for NSW tomorrow

 

[billypilgrimnz]

Wealth in fullback talent?? DWZ is ok at Fullback, but a better winger and Edwards is further from NRL than TMM or Cleary.

I think you'll find that we will still have at least Soward next year, Cleary and TMM will have heaps of time.

Hiku is a solid fullback as well (at least, he was when he played for Manly there).

DWZ is a functional winger. Fullback is is supposed position, so he deserves a shot there.

 

[Luke Bowden]

Hiku is a solid fullback as well (at least, he was when he played for Manly there).

DWZ is a functional winger. Fullback is is supposed position, so he deserves a shot there.

Hiku was ok at fullback, DWZ was ok at fullback. Neither of them were better than Moylan.

Why weaken one position to maybe strengthen another. TMM is already good enough to hold his starting spot and we have Soward until Cleary is ready.

Unless injuries dictate a change, I see no reason to move Moylan.

 

[Luke Bowden]

Why is Edwards further away? He'd be my winger when Mansour gets named for NSW tomorrow

He's only played against Men once, and he looked out of his depth. Defensively he would be steam rolled.

Blake or Jennings will take Mansours spot.

Dylan is very good, but needs to work on some areas before he's up to 1st grade. I think he's the furthest from being ready.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Might not have to worry about any positional changes after that dross served up today.