Preferred Bench and individual roles

[dragon thomo]

With all due respect with having the likes of LAM Marketo Mathews Lafai in first grade we have to stop expecting mediocrity and thats what we get with them, it would be good to accept no less then top 4 all the time.LAM and Mathews are back up first graders full stop the other should never play first grade again.

 

[Daniel Bartolo]

Lam best forward in 2015.Didn't want to be there 2016 ?
.

 

[BennyV]

In an earlier post I suggested I would like to see Thompson trialled as lock.
My thoughts were along these lines.

If De Belin plays prop he will be able to tackle his heart out all day, have some decent hit ups, not get involved with ball playing or hole running. The advantage here is he can play long minutes, occupy the centre of the paddock as he does now and potentially take some defensive pressure off the 13.

Thompson's defence is quite sound, he would give a few more attacking options with his speed especially off the back of Vaughan, Packer and potentially Masoe and if Mc Innes has some smarts out of dummy half a quick lock could be a big advantage.

Thompson at 13 would also allow Leilua to occupy the LS adding to our attacking structures if Mary has any.
Leilua certainly has ball playing skills and I would like to see with as many attacking options as possible both inside and out and with De Belin at lock I don't think he provides that inside option.

This would all require extremely good rotation off the bench but I think it is doable.

Maybe something like this
Leilua goes off for a rest, Thompson to LS edge (a bit less defence workload for a while) Simms to lock, Leilua then rotates with Thompson who goes for a rest and then Thompson rotating again with Sims.

It's just a thought but I think it adds to our attacking structure and would give the big guys a real incentive because Thompson running onto an offload would be awesome IMO and the same could be said of Dugan.

The unknown for me is can Thompson handle a bit more defensive load?

The problem with this is that Thompson hasnt played as a middle forward his entire career. He is ok with general hit-ups but his strengths* are running decent lines, hitting holes and defensive reads (like all good edge backrowers). Bring him into the middle and he becomes another battering ram, albeit a fairly speedy one, and completely underutilises his strengths. He's not a ball player, and you're right, there's a huge question over whether or not be would handle the defensive workload in the middle.

On a sidebar, based on what you've said above, what is the advantage of moving JDB to prop? You've said that he can play long minutes (which he does now), occupy the centre of the paddock (as he does now) and take some defensive pressure off the 13 (which is moot because whoever steps into the 13 will have to do a lot of defense). On top of this, you'd be removing one of our props from the rotation for seemingly no gain. Not sure why you'd bother.

*these would be Thompson's strengths if our coach had any clue about putting together an attacking play.

I'm not convinced JDB has reached the heights that we'd hoped for him (or if he ever will), but we would struggle to fill the 13 with someone in the squad who can do his minutes and get through his workload. If he can move away from the first receiver shit that Mary has him doing and focuses on running, tackling and offloading, he's the best option we've got.

 

[BennyV]

If Sims can play to his potential, he'd be ideal to play 13, so JDB can play a reserve Prop role along with either Masoe or LAM.

So you'd just be changing the numbers on their backs. Sims wouldn't be as effective doing the long minutes in the middle, so JDB would likely be covering that by doing longer minutes at prop. Where's the gain?

IMO, unless we are going to try something creative (ie. Hutch to lock) or one of the youngsters breaks through (Sele would be my pick) I can't see a better option at 13 any time soon.

SIdebar: I still think Sims' most effective position is on the edge, but with Friz, Thompson, Leilua and Host, we are well stocked there, his ability to also make impact in the middle forces him there.

 

[JDHD]

So you'd just be changing the numbers on their backs. Sims wouldn't be as effective doing the long minutes in the middle, so JDB would likely be covering that by doing longer minutes at prop. Where's the gain?

IMO, unless we are going to try something creative (ie. Hutch to lock) or one of the youngsters breaks through (Sele would be my pick) I can't see a better option at 13 any time soon.

SIdebar: I still think Sims' most effective position is on the edge, but with Friz, Thompson, Leilua and Host, we are well stocked there, his ability to also make impact in the middle forces him there.

I'd have Frizell at lock because the damage he did while playing there during origin was unbelievable.

 

[BrissyRedV]

I'm not convinced JDB has reached the heights that we'd hoped for him (or if he ever will), but we would struggle to fill the 13 with someone in the squad who can do his minutes and get through his workload. If he can move away from the first receiver shit that Mary has him doing and focuses on running, tackling and offloading, he's the best option we've got.

I agree. JDBs biggest issue is the way he is being utilised by Mary. This isn't helped by the fact we have deficiencies in our spine as well. He is a rock in defence in the middle for us and would benefit greatly from a simpler game plan for him.
As for Sims, I think we saw what he is capable of as an impact player in the middle and the team as whole with a different game plan in the game late last year against the Sharks. I see him as adding more value in prop rotation as impact then in the backrow in place of the likes of Frizz and Thompson who again, are being nullified by ineffective game plans.

 

[Dragsters]

Potentially any of these options could work but surely a massive factor in any of them is both the service from dummy half (which we have hopefully improved) and the creativity from the halves combo.

Therefore in lieu of signing a quality half, getting more creativity into the halves is imperative.

If Mary keeps widdop at 6 (which is the most likely of any of the selection questions) then to make the most of our improved pack and backline options, it is most critical that the halfback chosen has good vision and a quality passing game.

 

[giboz71]

So you'd just be changing the numbers on their backs. Sims wouldn't be as effective doing the long minutes in the middle, so JDB would likely be covering that by doing longer minutes at prop. Where's the gain?

IMO, unless we are going to try something creative (ie. Hutch to lock) or one of the youngsters breaks through (Sele would be my pick) I can't see a better option at 13 any time soon.

SIdebar: I still think Sims' most effective position is on the edge, but with Friz, Thompson, Leilua and Host, we are well stocked there, his ability to also make impact in the middle forces him there.

Is there any reason why Sims can't play bigger minutes? He's primarily been a starter in his previous teams and has played in the 2nd row previously who usually play most of the game.

If a locks job is to punch holes up the middle the same way as say Taumalolo or Sam Burgess, I think Sims will be more effective in this role, moreso than JDB who is more of a toiler than anything else. And the move to Prop can see him take LAM's (who was ineffective last year) role which frees up a bench spot for either Host or Leilua who need to start getting FG minutes.

 

[BennyV]

Is there any reason why Sims can't play bigger minutes? He's primarily been a starter in his previous teams and has played in the 2nd row previously who usually play most of the game.

If a locks job is to punch holes up the middle the same way as say Taumalolo or Sam Burgess, I think Sims will be more effective in this role, moreso than JDB who is more of a toiler than anything else. And the move to Prop can see him take LAM's (who was ineffective last year) role which frees up a bench spot for either Host or Leilua who need to start getting FG minutes.

Either Host or Leilua should be on the bench anyway, with a view to playing on the edge and injecting some minutes into them, and also potentially creating a bit of variety in attack.

Sims was most effective at Cowboys on the edge (less workload) or playing less minutes at lock. When he played big minutes at Newcastle, his form dipped heavily.

I agree he could play a role at 13, particularly running off short balls 2 off the ruck, however someone then needs to compensate for the workload. And realistically, he could easily do that from the prop rotation (as long as hes paired with, say, Packer), leaving a workhorse like JDB to do the hardyard, long minutes from lock.

The other question is what role you think the lock should play. Yes, Taumololo and Burgess do play that hole-punching role, but then you have others who play more of a workhorse role (Finucane, Gallen) and those that add creativity (Parker).

The problem with forfeiting Ah Mau for Host/Leilua is that you are pushing one of them to play in the middle, which doesnt really benefit anyone (save for some creative coaching with Leilua - which just isnt going to happen at this stage).

 

[BennyV]

I'd have Frizell at lock because the damage he did while playing there during origin was unbelievable.

Friz is wasted playing lock. Dude could be the best edge forward in the game if McMoron had any idea how to properly utilise second rowers.

I'm not against him slipping to lock when Host comes on, his versatility allows this. But IMO, keeping him in the middle is a waste.

 

[giboz71]

What is clear is we have options.

Props: Packer, Vaughan, LAM, Masoe, Kerr
Hookers: McInnes, Havili
2nd Rowers: Friz, Thommo, Host, Leilua, Marketo, Mathews,
Locks: Sims, JDB

We should be able to field a formidable pack and bench with this group, and can mix it up as we see fit. And we have decent cover in the event of injuries.

The forward pack is not our problem. It is and always has been fixing our spine to best utilise the forwards we have.

 

[Old Timer]

Benny V
I understand what you are saying re Thompson not having played lock but IMO we do not have a natural for that position and I think he would be worth a try.
Our back row has to alter to give some added penetration thus the emergence of Leilua but he and Thompson both play LS.
Thompson is a big minute player which is great for the bench rotation so how much time would Leilua get?
I think Leilua needs to get several decent stints in a game so that's also part of the reason why I looked at Thompson at 13.
I've always thought De Belin needs to bulk up and play prop as it is the best natural fit for him as he looks like a rabbit in the headlights if he has to use any brain power in the tasks he has to perform and to be honest back rowers need to have some smarts.
Also our prop stocks are a bit iffy with Masoe out and LAM down on form last year.
A lot of what will happen will also depend on whether Mc Innes is an 80 minute player.

 

[glenndragon]

Spot on old timer....looking through the ranks imo early in the season a need for havilli who did a good job for the cutters late last season is a must for the bench....a "filler" with his size & experience in the important roles of 9 & 13 is an important part of a team,whilst the players and coach hopefully concentrate on developing combinations between 9,1,6&7.
As soon Mcinnes shows he is consistent for 80 minutes & is injury free, then maybe alternatives should be made.

 

[BennyV]

Benny V
I understand what you are saying re Thompson not having played lock but IMO we do not have a natural for that position and I think he would be worth a try.
Our back row has to alter to give some added penetration thus the emergence of Leilua but he and Thompson both play LS.
Thompson is a big minute player which is great for the bench rotation so how much time would Leilua get?
I think Leilua needs to get several decent stints in a game so that's also part of the reason why I looked at Thompson at 13.
I've always thought De Belin needs to bulk up and play prop as it is the best natural fit for him as he looks like a rabbit in the headlights if he has to use any brain power in the tasks he has to perform and to be honest back rowers need to have some smarts.
Also our prop stocks are a bit iffy with Masoe out and LAM down on form last year.
A lot of what will happen will also depend on whether Mc Innes is an 80 minute player.

I'm not at all saying that it wont work, I'm just concerned there are too many factors that could screw the move. Not only an increased workload for Thompson in a new position, it's also a lot of pressure and workload to put on a very inexperienced, and semi-unfit, young player in Leilua, who's skillset may be better utilised as an impact player off the bench.

IMO, Host is in front of Leilua when it comes to edge forward spots, but that's sorta beside the point.

The other interesting point you make is at we 'don't have a natural for that [lock] position'. What is a natural lock? The last few years alone have showed how much variety there is in that position alone. There's those who are considered top locks (Taumololo, Merrin, Parker) who are essentially big-minute high-workload players with a bit more footwork and an offload. But if you look at this years' grand finals locks (Finucane and Gallen) they are basically a third prop, with a focus on defensive work rate and technique (i.e deBelins strengths). And there's been a number of variations of strengths at 13 over the last few years, including the Greg Bird/Glenn Stewart ball-player lock. I dont think there's one fit or 'natural', it depends on the rest of the forwards, and outside of Jack we struggle for high-minute/high-workload middle forwards (since the loss of Cooper and Creagh).

In saying all that, Giboz is right, the issues across our spine (and I'll add, in the coaching box) are those that need to be sorted first and foremost. Our forward pack should be able to handle themselves.

 

[Carlton]

I'm not at all saying that it wont work, I'm just concerned there are too many factors that could screw the move. Not only an increased workload for Thompson in a new position, it's also a lot of pressure and workload to put on a very inexperienced, and semi-unfit, young player in Leilua, who's skillset may be better utilised as an impact player off the bench.

IMO, Host is in front of Leilua when it comes to edge forward spots, but that's sorta beside the point.

The other interesting point you make is at we 'don't have a natural for that [lock] position'. What is a natural lock? The last few years alone have showed how much variety there is in that position alone. There's those who are considered top locks (Taumololo, Merrin, Parker) who are essentially big-minute high-workload players with a bit more footwork and an offload. But if you look at this years' grand finals locks (Finucane and Gallen) they are basically a third prop, with a focus on defensive work rate and technique (i.e deBelins strengths). And there's been a number of variations of strengths at 13 over the last few years, including the Greg Bird/Glenn Stewart ball-player lock. I dont think there's one fit or 'natural', it depends on the rest of the forwards, and outside of Jack we struggle for high-minute/high-workload middle forwards (since the loss of Cooper and Creagh).

In saying all that, Giboz is right, the issues across our spine (and I'll add, in the coaching box) are those that need to be sorted first and foremost. Our forward pack should be able to handle themselves.

I really hate the way positions are pigeon holed and its put forward that there is only one way a certain position should play. Different players can play the same position in a number of ways and still be excellent within their team.

Rugby League is a team sport and its about the balance and combinations within the team not necessarily about the individual player. Its the old adage that a champion team will beat a team of champions.

This is where the coach has to have the ability to identify the skills within the playing group and come up with the best combination.

 

[giboz71]

I really hate the way positions are pigeon holed and its put forward that there is only one way a certain position should play. Different players can play the same position in a number of ways and still be excellent within their team.

Rugby League is a team sport and its about the balance and combinations within the team not necessarily about the individual player. Its the old adage that a champion team will beat a team of champions.

This is where the coach has to have the ability to identify the skills within the playing group and come up with the best combination.

Correct.

Our spine is a great example where on paper, the individuals look good (hence we spent big $$). But collectively, Duges, Widdop, Benji and Rein were just downright horrible as a spine. And I mean stinking horrible.

Yet the Panthers were able to manufacture a spine where a backrower played 5/8, a career half (Wallace) played hooker, an 18 year old was thrown into 7 and the conductor of the party was their fullback. The big difference is that the Panther players possess the skills where they can play multiple roles and positions.

Our players don't and that along with a clueless coach has been our biggest problem.

We have a big opportunity with our dynamic 20's players and multiple forward options to come up with something similar, if we only had a coaching staff with the vision to think outside the square.

That's why a new coach is an absolute must for 2018.

 

[Old Timer]

Benny V
I do not like the types of locks that as you succinctly put it are "just extra props".
Our attack has been lamentable for a long time and keeping the same combination of the back 3 in the pack will not enhance it IMO regardless of what happens in the halves.
I would like to see many more attacking raids using our back row forwards and also have people in those positions that have high and selective skill levels and not just defensive dummies.
If our props are going to be half as good as what people are saying around here then a mobile and smart back row is a must if we are to break the defensive mind set and put sides on notice that we have attacking flair and options.
IMO Jack at 13 is the first sentence of this post so is not a natural fit for the style of football I would like to see us play.

 

[JDHD]

Benny V
I do not like the types of locks that as you succinctly put it are "just extra props".
Our attack has been lamentable for a long time and keeping the same combination of the back 3 in the pack will not enhance it IMO regardless of what happens in the halves.
I would like to see many more attacking raids using our back row forwards and also have people in those positions that have high and selective skill levels and not just defensive dummies.
If our props are going to be half as good as what people are saying around here then a mobile and smart back row is a must if we are to break the defensive mind set and put sides on notice that we have attacking flair and options.
IMO Jack at 13 is the first sentence of this post so is not a natural fit for the style of football I would like to see us play.

You make a damn good point about locks as 3rd props. The Bulldogs played Klemmer at lock and look what happened.

 

[BennyV]

Benny V
I do not like the types of locks that as you succinctly put it are "just extra props".
Our attack has been lamentable for a long time and keeping the same combination of the back 3 in the pack will not enhance it IMO regardless of what happens in the halves.
I would like to see many more attacking raids using our back row forwards and also have people in those positions that have high and selective skill levels and not just defensive dummies.
If our props are going to be half as good as what people are saying around here then a mobile and smart back row is a must if we are to break the defensive mind set and put sides on notice that we have attacking flair and options.
IMO Jack at 13 is the first sentence of this post so is not a natural fit for the style of football I would like to see us play.

Fair enough, each to their own. Personally, considering the coaches failure at utilising the bench, I believe we need a 13 who will do the hard yards and rack up the numbers, set the defensive speed and take the odd hit up when he needs to. It's times like this that I really wish we didnt f**k Merrin over, he's got the best of both worlds.

From here, I'd love to look at utilising Hutch as a lock in 2018. For one, it's his best chance to actually make a fist of a first grade career (I feel he wont get another chance to play halfback, considering we'll be chasing an established half hard in 2018.) and it would add another dimension to our attack, another kicking option, another ball playing option, and so on.

 

[Old Timer]

Fair enough, each to their own. Personally, considering the coaches failure at utilising the bench, I believe we need a 13 who will do the hard yards and rack up the numbers, set the defensive speed and take the odd hit up when he needs to. It's times like this that I really wish we didnt f**k Merrin over, he's got the best of both worlds.

From here, I'd love to look at utilising Hutch as a lock in 2018. For one, it's his best chance to actually make a fist of a first grade career (I feel he wont get another chance to play halfback, considering we'll be chasing an established half hard in 2018.) and it would add another dimension to our attack, another kicking option, another ball playing option, and so on.

Agree 100% on Merrin.
IMO we are a team that lacks ball playing ability and smarts so you may be correct re Hutch going to 13 as that would certainly give us greater options.
Regardless of what we all think is best and who should play where for whatever reason, we just have to hope that Mc Gregor doesn't think what we did last season is the blueprint for this one.