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Promotion and Relegation!

Discussion in 'NRL Expansion' started by tri_colours, Jul 31, 2019.

  1. tri_colours

    tri_colours Juniors

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    I've been thinkig about this, maybe not long enough, a promotion/ relegation system. Seems to works alright in Europe so why not here? This would work on a 'sink or swim basis'. The top tier would be reduced to 12 teams. There grant from the NRL would cover there salary cap (nothing extra). The second tier teams would also receive a grant , they would also have the backing of wealthy league club's ,benefactors and in the case of someone like PNG/Perth/NZ/Fiji/Melbourne etc. Governments would assist .So I cant see how promotion relegation would be to much of a problem.

    More teams might be prepared to merge or relocate under a system like this. Only the strongest will survive - sink or swim isn't that what's best for the game?

    The lower tear could play mid week, meaning more football on TV - more money. Less games more rep games - more money.

    - Thoughts ?
     
  2. titoelcolombiano

    titoelcolombiano Bench

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    I would be concerned about losing a Brisbane, Melbourne or NZ Warriors from the top flight in a P&R scenario. That would be disasterous commercially, for crowds, for TV ratings and for memberships.
     
  3. tri_colours

    tri_colours Juniors

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    If someone like Brisbane was to get relegated it would only be because they were performing badly . Once they started to win again there followers would still be there, and in many cases more determined then ever. Strong financial backing/ third parties etc. would soon see them back.

    Maybe teams like Easts, North Qld, Newcastle etc wouldn't spend as much time in top tier but at least they could all get there, and as long as they continued to perform would stay there. The door would be open to everyone - even the Bears. East Coast , Regional Qld.

    It would give Murdoch 6 high quality games on the weekend as well as the pick of the 2nd division games during the week.

    Top quality games will attract crowds and ratings.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
  4. Canard

    Canard Referee

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    On a list of top 10 dumb things to introduce into Australian sport, this would be numbers 1,3,5 and 7.
     
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  5. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Bench

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    Promotion and Relegation is a complete nonstarter for the NRL, or for that matter any of the other major competitions in Australia.

    The only way that promotion and relegation works commercially is if you regularly have teams of similar or equal value to broadcasters, sponsors, etc, being promoted and relegated, which because of the size of the population, it's geographical spread, and the spread of wealth across that population, Australia simply can't support the the pressure that P&R puts on a competition at the moment.

    For example in the NRL, all it would take is for one of the clubs from one of the big markets (i.e. Brisbane, Melbourne, or NZ) to be relegated from the NRL and replaced with a club from a market that's not as valuable (i.e. another Sydney club or a country club) and the value of the NRL's broadcasting rights would tank overnight, if two of the big clubs were to drop down in quick succession and not be replaced then it'd probably kill the NRL.

    So until we get to a point where there is a roughly equal amount of well supported clubs from each major market, which is unlikely to happen in our lifetime, P&R would almost certainly be commercial suicide.

    However even if we could get to the point where P&R wouldn't be commercial suicide P&R would still be a big risk because of the small and very uneven spread of the population of the Australian market, and even then probably still wouldn't manifest it's self in the same way that it does in e.g. Europe, because P&R is highly reliant on the population density in Europe making it possible for large amounts of away support to travel to games regularly for it's success.

    However in saying all of that, if handled properly, P&R could be used as a tool to draw more interest and investment into the lower tier competitions, and could help in restructuring the lower tier competitions into valuable products in their own right instead of being glorified reserve grades that nobody cares about, but that is a whole other discussion.
     
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  6. tri_colours

    tri_colours Juniors

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    Your final paragraph is more in line with what I'm suggesting.


    Heavily populated areas such as Brisbane would have plenty of support and plenty of backers. Which would soon see them back in the top tier again once they started playing well. Sides not playing well, not competitive do not rate that highly anyway. It would not be the same for clubs like Easts, Newcastle, Canberra etc. But the possibility of playing in the top tier is not going to be taken away. ie, there not just going to be reduced to feeder clubs

    If your playing in the 2nd tier, your still shown on TV so there will still be some degree of support/sponsorship, which will pick up if you look like getting into the top tier. The NRL/Fox/Ch9
    would all be possibilities when it came to streaming the 2nd tier games, I know I would buy a subscription if it meant watching my team each week. The struggle for promotion to the top tier could rival the interest levels of top tier finals.

    This is only a very basic plan like so many others I've read on this site. I'm sure it could be improved upon. Maybe a team from each state could be a permanent fixture in the top tier.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  7. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Bench

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    In that last paragraph I was proposing P&R between the lower tiers, but that stops before the NRL.

    So there'd be P&R between e.g. the 3rd and 2nd tier, but the NRL would still have franchising.

    So it's really not in line with what you are suggesting, it's similar, but different.
     
  8. MrE_Assassin

    MrE_Assassin Juniors

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    Why did we have to have another P&R thread started when one already exists? (I think it's called Expansion by Division).

    I don't think P&R will ever get of the ground at NRL level for the reasons already listed, plus you look at competitions in europe like the EPL, etc. The clubs themselves are in such close proximity to each other geographically and the population is a lot bigger that P&R can work. Australia is too widespread. The clubs that come up from the sub-comps probably wouldn't be able to support it long term... especially if the club turnover in annual.

    The only way I see this possibly working for RL in Australia is if each state was given X amount of positions in a national competition and then each of the state competitons P&R clubs from within the state to fill those positions. (eg NSW has 6, QLD has 6, VIC/SA/WA have 2 each). I still don't think its a good idea and I don't think it would work. If anything it would probably cause more people to lose interest if their team isn't there permanently.

    Overall I believe P&R to be a terrible concept for the sport.
     
  9. tri_colours

    tri_colours Juniors

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    Well clubs
    Sorry,I was unaware of the other thread at the time.

    If we want expansion we might have to start considering something from out of left field like this. The clubs all have licenses, unless they run into financial difficulty, chose to merge or relocate to somewhere like Perth, all of which seems unlikely, in the foreseeable future, it is unlikely that anything will happen.
     
  10. MrE_Assassin

    MrE_Assassin Juniors

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    You do realise that you contradict yourself if your rebuttal. You say that P&R is far left field but also say ideas like moving, mergers or collapse are unlikely to happen... this then also makes them left field ideas.

    Regardless, NRL is unlikely to surpass 20 teams total for the competition and to a point I agree that this is probably the maximal number for the comp. My opinion is that if the league is to branch out then this will probably be done through rebrand/relocation (St George moving to Wollongong permanently and adopting the South Coast Dragons or something to that effect in 3068 or Manly rebranding to something that includes the Central Coast/etc), or redistribution of licences to cities that have no team/ require an extra if teams go belly up.

    I don’t think we’d ever get to a point where there would be enough teams and talent at an NRL standard that would support a P&R mainstream competition. I also don’t think the funding for that would be there. TV isn’t going to pay for the top flight and the relegated comp. The NRL is already struggling to squeeze money out of them to fund expansion because the broadcasters are trying to pinch their pennies too and cut costs where they can. They want the extra content but they don’t want to foot the bill for it.

    Sponsors aren’t going to stick to a team long term in there is no/limited broadcast of their brand because the team they’re backing is perennial losers who are almost permanently in the sub-comp... they’ll bail and sponsor successful teams. Hell, the sharks have been mildly successful and they struggle to lock down a sponsor most years.

    I just don’t think the appetite for P&R is there.
     
  11. siv

    siv Bench

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    Promotion provides opportunity and brings focus and interest into second division

    Mechanism for promotion needs to reviewed. I like a 4 way round robin series at wooden spooners home ground
    - wooden spooner
    - QLD Cup winner
    - NSW Cup winner
    - NZ Cup winner

    But some basic restructures required
    - NRL reserve grade (makes Tier 2 same standard)
    - promotion of RM Cup and NSW Country divisions onto NSW Cup (just like Qld Cup) with 14 teams
    - NZ Cup re-include NZ regional teams and Fiji Samoa and Tonga
    - Perth and Adelaide and NT to join a state leagues
    - then after a 2 years a special 6 way promotion series where top 2 of NSW, QLD and NZ Cup play a 5 round round robin with Top 2 getting promoted into a 18 team NRL comp

    I would also have a U22s level setup below state leagues

    U20s revert back 9 round junior format with NRL and state leagues teams all playing beside U18s

    You would have to setup basic guidelines for promotion
    - minimum ground capacity 20k
    - minimum coporste boxes eg 10

    Now you could set a guideline that you cannot drop below 4 regional or 4 Sydney clubs, with no fewer that one team in Qld, NZ or Vic. With 2nd last club taking the place of the wooden spooner in the promotion series. Or not have a promotion series that year.
     
  12. Perth Red

    Perth Red Immortal

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    You need to take a look at what s happening in uk in soccer and RL if you think p&r are a good idea! Yo-yo clubs are a disaster and that’s what you end up with.
     
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  13. VictoryFC

    VictoryFC Bench

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    While I agree that the NRL shouldn't adopt promotion/relegation, this doesn't make any sense.

    Reserved away support at English grounds, for instance, is 10% of the stadium max. In a 30k stadium, you're talking about a potential maximum of 3,000 away supporters. Hardly what you'd call 'large amounts'. It's much, much less than the potential crowds in the NRL and auskick, which have half the league based in one city, allowing basically any fan who wants to attend an away game the opportunity to do so..

    Also, Brazil, Russia and China are all bigger than Australia in terms of area, and yet all three have promotion/relegation. So it's not as simple as saying that density is a factor. Tradition of PR is far more important factor than density and size.

    The reason why promotion/relegation works in other countries is because it's rooted in decades (up to and over a century) of tradition, a time when money wasn't an important to the survival of clubs as it is today. The NRL doesn't have that, so it's pointless even talking about it.

    But there is no question that the likes of the EPL+Football League have such a strangehold on the UK is a result of promotion/relegation, which has allowed it to basically have teams in every major and mid-size market in the country.
     
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  14. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Bench

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    Firstly you've wildly misinterpreted my point. . . I didn't say that P&R wouldn't work in Australia because of the size of the population and lack of population density in Australia, I said that if you could negate the other reasons why P&R would be a bad idea in the NRL (or any of the other competitions in the country), that P&R would still manifest differently in Australia then to how it does in Europe because of said lack of the size and density of the population.

    In other words, P&R may still work in Australia but it wouldn't result in outcomes similar to the ones you see in Europe, so even if P&R was instituted in the NRL Tri_colours and other like minded people almost certainly wouldn't achieve the outcome that they are looking to achieve anyway.

    But ignoring the fact that you misinterpreted me:

    Reserved away support at English grounds is only 10% because in most cases if they made it much higher it'd impact on home support numbers (i.e. they wouldn't be able to sell as many season tickets and the such), and they have other concerns, e.g. trying to prevent hooliganism and the such, that we only rarely have to consider here in Australia, that smaller, more controllable, groups of away supporters make easier to deal with.
    I have no doubt that if they raised that percentage of reserved away support that they'd have no problem selling the tickets in most cases. However with the acceptation of big games and many of the games in Sydney, the NRL would be lucky to crack 1.5k in away support at most games, and I'd be willing to bet that the NRL could only dream of drawing 10% away support to most clubs games.

    There is no legitimate competition to soccer in the sports market in Brazil (though that is slowly changing), so they can do things without having to worry about competition in the same way that sports in other markets have to.

    The vast majority of the clubs that compete in the Russian soccer competitions, and almost all of the ones that have competed in the Russian Premier league, are from European Russia, which, depending on how you define European Russia, is an area of about 10 mil km² ( about 3 mil km² larger than the size of Australia). However not only is European Russia home to about 110mil of the 140mil people in Russia, it is extremely densely populated along the west of European Russia it's self, and that densely populated part in the west of European Russia (an area running from roughly St. Petersburg to Sochi, which is roughly comparable to the size of the eastern seaboard of Australia) is where almost all of the clubs come from.

    So yeah, you've misrepresented the situation that Soccer in Russia is in, and if Australia had a population and the density of population that Russia has in European Russia, and specifically in a band of land that is roughly the distance of Carins to Melbourne, then Australia would certainly be able to support P&R as well.

    Finally, China is a whole other kettle of fish, but put simply, because of their political and economic systems most of the clubs in China aren't under the same commercial pressures that they are in other markets, but even if they were it's a similar situation to Russia where most of the club are from the densely populated part in the east of the country and not spread evenly across the country it's self.
     
  15. VictoryFC

    VictoryFC Bench

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    The point is that you’re trying to apply seemingly logical reasons for why other countries have PR. It’s completely meaningless, as it all comes down to tradition, and has very little to do with any other competitive or commercial reasons.

    Brazilian clubs still spend 3-4 months playing in state leagues, which just about everyone agrees is a colossal waste of time. Why? That’s how it’s always been. And at one time, it made sense. It doesnt anymore.

    At the end of the day, soccer globally promotes inclusivity and free markets, which stems from tradition. But if that tradition wasnt there, we’d see closed systems, as we see in Australia and America.

    And btw your comment on Brazil having no competition is misguided. Soccer in general, when it comes to dominate a country, never really has true competition. The UK has plenty of competition for sports, yet soccer still gobbles up 80% of coverage. Brazil actually has massive competition, not from other sports but from other soccer leagues, which have become more popular over time. In many ways thats worse as other sports dont threaten soccer’s position once it takes hold as the main sport. The upside is that their clubs are steeped in history and tradition, and watching other leagues and losing their best players every year isnt enough to break that.
     
  16. Pommy

    Pommy Coach

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    Why is it a disaster in football?
    I support a team that has been down and up twice in the last ten years and it’s laid directly at the owners door rather than P&R.
     
  17. siv

    siv Bench

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    Thats why it shouldnt be a automatic relegation or automatic promotion

    A promotion series forces teams to prove they are better than the worst club

    And for the bottom clubs to prove their worth

    But also has clubs ready for promotion should a club fall over financially
     
  18. The Great Dane

    The Great Dane Bench

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    No I wasn't, you've just pulled that out of your arse!

    I was providing reasons why P&R isn't logical in Australia, I made no comment whatsoever about whether or not it is or isn't "logical" in other countries.

    You misinterpreted something I said and have run off on a tangent based on that misinterpretation.

    I didn't say that the Brazilian league faces no competition from other foreign soccer leagues, I said that there was no legitimate competition to soccer (i.e. no other sports withing the Brazilian market that really compete's with it on an even footing) in the Brazilian market.

    However, I reckon that you are probably overstating the impact that that competition from other soccer leagues has on Brazilian soccer, as I imagine that most soccer fans in Brazil would follow multiple teams from multiple leagues, and would have a favourite local team and favourite foreign teams as well.

    Also I think to say that the popularity and success of P&R is only down to tradition is a massive oversimplification, but I'm not well placed to argue that point so I won't.
     
  19. Perth Red

    Perth Red Immortal

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    Check at the state of some of the relegated clubs like Bolton. Imagine in nrl you ended up with Brisbane and Melbourne going down and Redcliffe and Newtown coming up lol, how would that make for a stronger game?
     
  20. Pommy

    Pommy Coach

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    Bolton weren’t exactly a Brisbane of a Melbourne though.
     

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