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Question!

Fampa

Juniors
Messages
118
I used to like the Dogs. I wouldn't've classed them as even my second fav team, but they were up there. Even bought a scarf at one of their games about 5 years back (they were playing the roosters). It still sits in the garage at home. One day I hope to find myself in a position to support them again.

To me, the salary cap rort wasn't as issue. That is caused by administrators, not players. I don't follow a club because of administrators, I follow it because of the players.

This year is totally different. The actions of a few players disgusted me. But the reaction of cover up by the whole club, administrators AND other players, has led me to see the club in a whole new light. Four words: 'party to the offence'.

It was painful, but I was cheering for the Roosters at the GF, and that's with Walker and Hodges :shock:
 

Cammo

Bench
Messages
2,539
This year is totally different. The actions of a few players disgusted me. But the reaction of cover up by the whole club, administrators AND other players, has led me to see the club in a whole new light. Four words: 'party to the offence'.

That's funny cause even the police said that thy don't think there was a cover up. Also there is no way every single person in the club (especially those no longer with the club) would keep all that quiet and cop the shit that they copped if they knew they didn't have to.

I suggest you think a bit before you make those sorts of silly comments.
 

ibeme

First Grade
Messages
6,904
There has to be an offence or crime committed before there can be a cover up. Otherwise, it's simply protecting the innocent from a public that has already decided to be judge jury and executioner.

Saying that everyone is "Party to the Offence" is just as invalid, for the same reasons - there was no offence. If you find yourself struggling to come to grips with that, then you may want to do some more research on the findings and the investigation. Headlines rarely tell the story.
 

Fampa

Juniors
Messages
118
Cammo said:
I suggest you think a bit before you make those sorts of silly comments.

I take it you've spoken to the D's involved then? If you haven't, then I suggest you think a bit before making comments when you haven't even seen the brief.
 

Cammo

Bench
Messages
2,539
I have had some information from one of them.

I will not go any further than that.
 

ibeme

First Grade
Messages
6,904
Here's an extract from a two-part article that was written in the Australian Magazine on August 7 this year. The article was titled "After Coffs - ABOUT THAT NIGHT" and was written By Christine Jackman. I can't provide a link because it now only exists in a user pays archive. It was a long two part article, so I've extracted parts that I feel are relevant to this debate.

THIS MUCH WE KNOW, FROM WITNESS statements and other evidence. This was not the first time the young woman had returned with members of the Bulldogs to the Novotel Pacific Bay Resort, proudly billed the "Home of the Wallabies" after Australia's rugby squad adopted the picturesque haven as its training base in 2000.
In a statement given to police, the woman said she had also visited the resort three nights before the Bulldogs-Canberra match, and had had consensual sex with four players, a claim verified by the men involved. Sources close to the team dispute whether it was "group sex" or sex with four individual players at separate times during that night - an indication of the delicate complexities of the debate about group sex, subtleties which were largely lost in ensuing media outrage.
The Bulldogs also denied media reports that players were drunk or badly behaved after their win on Saturday. An independent inquiry into allegations of brawling and sexual harassment, ordered by National Rugby League boss David Gallop and conducted by former chief of detectives Ken Bowditch, later vindicated the team. In addition, Plantation Hotel licensee Harry Barry sent his own letter to then Bulldogs CEO Steve Mortimer commending his players' conduct. "I did not see, nor did anyone complain to me or a member of my staff, about the behaviour of the Bulldogs while at the hotel," Barry wrote. "Indeed, staff, regular customers and the Bulldogs had a most enjoyable night."
One player more than most, perhaps. Recognising the young woman from the pre-match bacchanalia of Wednesday night, this player - a younger member of the squad - flirted with her in the bar before disappearing to have sex with her in a room at the backpackers' hostel that forms part of the sprawling Planto complex. (Although the woman lives with her parents and her 18-month-old son just a few minutes' drive from the pub, her friend Kylie Hubbard lives more than 30km out of town and the women apparently often used the hostel as a base when they planned a big night out together.)
What happened next, after the woman returned from her assignation in the hostel bedroom, is more contentious. Several players told police she pestered them as they played poker machines clustered in a quiet corner of the hotel, away from the main dance floor and bar. Sources close to those players say she harassed high-profile forward Willie Mason particularly insistently. Lawyers for the Bulldogs complain that a surveillance tape from the Plantation Hotel's security cameras which would have proved or disproved these potentially damning claims was taken by police, who assured them they would be able to make a copy but later reneged on that arrangement. "We have received instruction [the woman] was jumping over the backs of the players and pressing the payout buttons [on the poker machines] without their permission," Bulldogs solicitor John Carmody said, when asked what he believed the tape would show. "We also have information she picked up a player's glass and began licking it with her tongue."
A doorman at the hotel later told police he had been slapped in the chest by the woman after he refused to intervene on her behalf when a player barred her from sharing his cab back to the Pacific Bay Resort. The player - understood to be Mason - allegedly swore vehemently at the woman as he told her to leave him alone. "It's pretty ironic and unfair that people have assumed Willie had something to do with this when he was probably the most verbose in rejecting her," says a senior source in Bulldogs management. "And that he could even have been fined for using bad language in public to reject her. He was nowhere near the Wednesday night stuff, either."

DESPITE THE DISINTEREST - AND, IN some cases, outright hostility - displayed by some of the Bulldogs towards her, the woman eventually shared a cab back to the Pacific Bay Resort about 5.30am, accompanied by the player with whom she had had sex earlier in the night.
She later told police she wanted to go to the resort only to return a wallet to her friend Kylie Hubbard, who had gone back there with a player. But her credibility was thrown into doubt when police later established she had not taken the missing wallet to Pacific Bay; it was left all night at the Planto.
It is here that the timeline - and the evidence of two key independent witnesses - becomes critical. One witness, a maintenance worker at the Pacific Bay Resort, told police he ran into the woman and man shortly after he started work about 5.50am, when she asked him for directions to a semi-private beach adjoining the resort.
About 25 minutes later, he encountered the couple again. By then, they were near the resort's Charlesworth Pool, talking to two young men he had just seen put two other girls into a cab. The girls were "very young, say 16 to 18", the worker recalled. "I thought it was a bit late for them to be out at that time." If nothing else, this evidence suggests at least two other Bulldogs players that night openly flouted the club's unwritten code outlawing women being brought back to the hotel.
A second witness, a pool technician, spotted the couple "actually in the act of sex" in the pool about that time. The man told police it was about 6.30am and broad daylight when he arrived to take water samples from the Charlesworth Pool, one of three pools at the resort. "There was a girl in the water with her back towards me and there was a fellow sitting on the edge of the pool taking his weight on his hands and I presumed they were having oral sex," the man said in his statement to police. He added he deliberately shut the gate loudly to warn them he was there.
"When that happened the girl sort of rose up out of the water and pivoted around beside the bloke and just sat there alongside him ... I wasn't really interested in what they were doing; to me it was just a couple of people having an early morning romp. The girl was just sitting there and I just minded my own business."
Some time after 6.30am, the maintenance worker also entered the pool area to empty bins. He saw the young woman "swimming in the pool breaststroke, virtually in the one spot. She looked like she was enjoying everything. There was nothing unusual about her." The young man with whom she had arrived was nowhere in sight. But the pair he had seen farewelling two younger women in a cab were lying by the pool on banana lounges.
At least one golfer is believed to have been on the course that hugs the pool - a putting green sits just five metres from its perimeter fence - at that time. By 7am, the golf shop and snack bar that overlooks the area had opened; by 7.15am, when the pool technician returned to do more work on the Charlesworth Pool, it was deserted.
The young woman originally told police the assault happened some time between 6am and 7am, although she later broadened that window to between 5.30am and 7.30am. If the independent witnesses are to be believed, and physical evidence of time, weather and locale taken into account, there seems almost no opportunity left in that period for six to eight young men to assault a woman undetected in a pool area overlooked by two large hotel blocks.
Nevertheless, at 8.30am, an ambulance was called to the resort. An hour or so later, Bulldogs CEO Steve Mortimer walked out of his hotel room and immediately spotted football manager Garry Hughes speaking to a player who was gesticulating wildly. Mortimer's first thought was: "Oh God, not again."

This might explain the perception of a 'cover-up':
Gallop has since concluded that the Bulldogs executives were simply incapable of grasping one of the most sensitive and explosive issues any modern-day board might be asked to handle: sexual misbehaviour by high-profile employees.
"Without sounding overcritical of their game plan, I just don't think they knew how to handle it," Gallop says. "It took a while for it to sink in with them that, irrespective of what their view of what happened was, it was a huge story that a woman had made that allegation, that it's a huge issue not only in rugby league but in the community. Allegations of gang rape are always going to be big news."

And this might explain the immediate perception of guilt among the community:
Two days after police were called to the Pacific Bay Resort, Sydney broadcaster Ray Hadley went to air shortly after 9am, as parents were dropping their children at preschool and pensioners were finishing their breakfast, to read a graphic incident report from Coffs Harbour. "Initial information to police was that the victim ... was taken to the lower pool area by about six to eight of the players," Hadley read. "She has then disclosed to a cleaner that at least six of them sexually assaulted her, without consent, by anal, oral and vaginal penetration."
In the public furore that followed, it was rarely made clear to listeners or readers that an incident report is not a police statement of what they believe to have happened but rather a crime victim's description of an alleged incident. That report may change - as this one did - as time passes and the victim recalls or clarifies details.

This is a clear example of the mis-leading sensationalism that unfairly biased the public's perception:
Instead, many journalists began building their own case against the Bulldogs without regard for the facts. A Four Corners report on sexual violence in sport depicted the Charlesworth Pool in the dead of night. A Sydney Morning Herald feature described it as "a place bathed in darkness, despite the lights that turn the water a seductive blue-green, a place where the roar of the ocean, only 100 metres away, drowns out most noise". Except the pool wasn't in darkness and the ocean doesn't drown out the noise. As two independent witnesses told police, it was broad daylight when the woman was seen frolicking in the pool; one also told police that "that morning, it was very calm, no wind, very quiet. If anyone made any noise, you can hear it from the Bayside Towers." Indeed, any visitor to the pool would note that a thick ridge of scrub muffles the sound of waves breaking.
 

Cammo

Bench
Messages
2,539
That is a good article ibeme. Unfortunately most people still want to believe all the early media reports that condemn the players and don't want to take in the facts as they should be presented.

It is good to see this article that seems like true investigative journalism as opposed to tabloid journalism.

As I have said all along, I thought that the players may not have treated her very well at some times but there was no way that anything illegal went on. At least the evidence (or lack of it) goes a long way to proving that as well.
 

[furrycat]

Coach
Messages
18,827
yeh and also because i think they are bad sportspeople... their fans also give them a bad name....
last week at the game their fans were abbussing the storm players on the bench really bad... it was in the paper.... discusting language
but mainly because of their incidents they r involved in
i cant see y people dont hate them more than the roosters

With your fans pouring urine in Muslim Bulldogs fans and stealing their religious clothing? No that's not bad... Course it isn't.


Bad sports people? Have you met all the players? I have, and they are definately not. Everything you read in the paper is not true, the so-called "police brief" the Sun Herald published was fake and we had them reprimanded for it. We hate the Roosters
 

wittyfan

Immortal
Messages
30,069
Cammo said:
As I have said all along, I thought that the players may not have treated her very well at some times but there was no way that anything illegal went on. At least the evidence (or lack of it) goes a long way to proving that as well.

However, why was this woman taken to a hospital shaking and bleeding? I think the article poses many more questions than answers.
 

Cammo

Bench
Messages
2,539
However, why was this woman taken to a hospital shaking and bleeding? I think the article poses many more questions than answers.

That is what was reported, it is not neccesarily what happened.

Just because she was taken to hospital does not mean she was bleeding or even badly injured. The medical photos taken at the hospital don't show any of these reported injuries.
 

ibeme

First Grade
Messages
6,904
The police even said in their press conference that reports of stitches were a total fabrication. They said that the physical evidence was consistent with consensual (which doesn't really support injuries) and non-consensual sex. A report on the ABC also stated that the physical evidence presented to the DPP from the medical examination did not support what she claimed to have happened to her.
 

wittyfan

Immortal
Messages
30,069
ibeme said:
A report on the ABC also stated that the physical evidence presented to the DPP from the medical examination did not support what she claimed to have happened to her.

Then why did police spend 18 hours a day for 10 weeks investigating fabrications and false claims? We'll never know the truth. :(
 

wittyfan

Immortal
Messages
30,069
sullyfan said:
ibeme said:
A report on the ABC also stated that the physical evidence presented to the DPP from the medical examination did not support what she claimed to have happened to her.

Then why did police spend 18 hours a day for 10 weeks investigating "fabrications" and false claims ? We'll never know the truth. :(
 

ibeme

First Grade
Messages
6,904
It's the police's job to take such accusations seriously, and investigate them fully, one reason being to show to future victims that their claims will be treated seriously. The girl made an accusation, and the rape kit showed that something did happen. She was in a distressed state. All signs were there. She'd had intercourse with the players. As we've all seen, it's a lot easier for people to convince themselves that it did happen, rather than it didn't once such an accusation is made.

An interesting comment I read from Steve Mortimer which was made not so long ago was with regards to the police investigation. He said that when they were dealing with the Coffs Harbour police, it was a very co-operative relationship. He said that things changed dramatically when Sydney police took over the investigation. He said that the first time the head detective (Breton?) called him he spoke straight threw him, at him, and was very aggressive. Breton then took the investigation to the media more than he did to the club. That's when the club bunkered down. Steve Mortimer's father is an ex-police officer (retired Sergeant I think).

It's also interesting to note that the players story never changed from initial statements given to Coffs Harbour police, even though the change in police attitude caused them to bunker down. Eventually, the players gave full, unrestricted interviews in Dubbo, and it was information gathered from those interviews that ended the investigation. It was those interviews that allowed police to then confirm the players alibies. All players were where they said they were at the time, as supported by hotel staff, including the player in the pool with the girl that morning. The players who'd had consensual sex with her, had admitted to doing so from day one. The players stories all checked out, and they could have saved themselves a lot of heartache by being fully cooperative in their first round of interviews with the Sydney investigators. They were only following legal advise though. The players also volunteered to submit to DNA tests from early on in the investigation.
 

ibeme

First Grade
Messages
6,904
Also, there was security footage from the pokie room that the players and the girl were in earlier in the night, which the players legal representatives believed would assist in confirming the players accounts. The police initially agreed to release these tapes to the legal representatives, but then changed their minds. As far as I know, the police will still not release those tapes.

What possible reason could there be for not releasing them?

Also, during the investigation, the police went to the media appealling for a 'seventh player' to come forward. They said that there was a seventh player in the area at the time that they wanted to question. In the press conference after the case was dropped, Breton still insisted that there was a seventh player. When asked about it he said that they know there was a seventh player. That is a totally flawed claim. To know without a doubt that there was a seventh player, means that they must also know that player's identity. Otherwise how would they even know that it was a player. It can only be one of 20 or so famous faces.

There are a lot of inconsistencies like this in the investigation. The alleged victim's version of events changed over time, and she lied about why she went back to the hotel in the first place.

The only consistency has been with the players.
 

Cammo

Bench
Messages
2,539
Well said ibeme. Unfortunately all the media outlets early in the episode didn't have these details and pretty much handed down a guilty verdict. People believed this cause they wanted to, they hate The Bulldogs and want to think they are guilty, therefore all the initial media stories are their way of promoting their hatred and the belief in their guilt.

As more and more details slowly come out we are beginning to know more of what went on and as Paul Kent has even now said in his column The Bulldogs seem to have been hard done by in the press.
 
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