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Rationalisation of Sydney

Messages
1,421
I’m not trying to be deliberately argumentative here. It’s just this thread type has come up so many times and every single time people fly in and name 2 teams to ditch (usually based on current form or news stories of impending doom) and replace them with regions who have no real justification for inclusion.

My position is this, as fans of current clubs we should all look at a club folding or being forcefully moved as an absolute tragedy. No one would want their club to go through it so wishing it upon other fans of the game is just low.

Additionally if a club is folded or moved then the clubs that remain are just 1 or 2 steps closer to the same fate so be careful what you wish for.
 

Diesel

Referee
Messages
20,124
Relocation seems a better outcome than a merger or folding, but many people are against relocation.
Relocation of a Sydney club means your team is still around and you’ll see them play around 8 times in Sydney a year excluding finals.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
11,957
I think because the southern coastal metropolitan area have two teams, and the northern just one. But then they are advocating keeping both Panthers and Parra so blowed if I know.
Distance between parra and penrith is vast (30mins away) parramatta's distance to Dogs, souths and tigers is a lot closer, Panthers also represent central west region in dubbo, bathurst and lithgow, which 2-5 hours further west
I wouldn't be lumping/merging panthers with any other team east of them
 
Messages
1,421
Relocation seems a better outcome than a merger or folding, but many people are against relocation.
Relocation of a Sydney club means your team is still around and you’ll see them play around 8 times in Sydney a year excluding finals.
For me relocating is folding.

Cronulla sharks play at cronulla. Perth sharks would not get one fan from the shire.
 

tri_colours

Juniors
Messages
1,828
Cant agree, No fan deserves to be without his club .

If the NRL wishes to fulfill it's potential it will expand and continue to do so - and who knows what the future may hold - maybe a two conference system.

Offering the networks less matches in the capital cities will not work out well for anyone.

It took the Storm 10 years to get FTA coverage before midnight.!
I disagree with this. Nobody has a right to his/her club being around for ever. If the club does not attract enough of its fans off the couch and to the ground then they don't deserve a club.
I would start threatening the sydney clubs that if they don't get bigger crowds they will be dumped that way the clubs might reduce the ticket price and actually spending money on promotion rather than what they spend it on now which is gold plated weights in their gyms and inflation of coaches wages.



Surely any rationalize plans would have to have more to it than just crowd numbers ?


Saturated markets mean more viewers for the networks and more money for the NRL. Sydney viewers have the biggest subscription numbers for Fox sports . The wealthiest and most influential owners/backers are in Sydney. The Panthers are the biggest sports brand in the country and people want to get rid of them or relocate them in Perth

As for crowds , Should we be getting rid of Canberra? All rugby League crowds are poor. Even Brisbane 32k average is poor, in a city of 2.4millon. What happens when they get more than one team?

The AFL are obsessed with attending matches , it’s almost like a cult.

Melbourne is a far more saturated marked than Sydney. And as for ticket prices? that doesn't seem to be a concern down there either.
 
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Messages
1,421
The long and the short of it is.... the nrl don’t make enough money to deal with any kind of court case (again) should a club be forced. It should only happen through natural attrition which I’m totally fine with.

Let my club fight for survival but don’t you dare help bury us.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,762
Just cutting teams is a waste, and is stupid if it can be avoided, but mergers and relocations don't work as they are intended to and more often then not cause more problems then they fix, so that leaves only relegation.

Basically everywhere that relegation is used it's worked, but only if there is clear criteria on how and why a club would be relegated and there's a competition of reasonable standard below the top tier comp that is broadcast to similar standards and gets reasonable coverage in the media, which is why for the time being at least relegation would be a bad idea for the NRL cause no such competition exists.

Basically what I'm saying is if the NRL was to attempt to rationalise the comp right now it wouldn't necessarily fail as such but it wouldn't be as successful as it could be, so for the time being they shouldn't rationalise, but what they should do is be building up the lower tiers and making them products in their own right, then in 10-20 years time when the lower tiers have their own national footprints, their own TV contracts and audiences, basically when they are a relatively small but valuable product in their own right, that is when the NRL should rationalise by shuffling things around, not before hand.

As to which clubs I'd rationalise... Well that is a very hard question to answer cause we (the public) don't have access to all the information necessary to make an informed decision on who should and who shouldn't be cut, however I do know that I definitely wouldn't relegate Manly because they are the only team in the North of Sydney, that's not to say that their business doesn't need to be completely restructured, but unless the NRL plan on replacing them with a new team to represent NS in the NRL (or switch them with the Bears) they are safe.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
11,957
Just cutting teams is a waste, and is stupid if it can be avoided, but mergers and relocations don't work as they are intended to and more often then not cause more problems then they fix, so that leaves only relegation.

Basically everywhere that relegation is used it's worked, but only if there is clear criteria on how and why a club would be relegated and there's a competition of reasonable standard below the top tier comp that is broadcast to similar standards and gets reasonable coverage in the media, which is why for the time being at least relegation would be a bad idea for the NRL cause no such competition exists.

Basically what I'm saying is if the NRL was to attempt to rationalise the comp right now it wouldn't necessarily fail as such but it wouldn't be as successful as it could be, so for the time being they shouldn't rationalise, but what they should do is be building up the lower tiers and making them products in their own right, then in 10-20 years time when the lower tiers have their own national footprints, their own TV contracts and audiences, basically when they are a relatively small but valuable product in their own right, that is when the NRL should rationalise by shuffling things around, not before hand.

As to which clubs I'd rationalise... Well that is a very hard question to answer cause we (the public) don't have access to all the information necessary to make an informed decision on who should and who shouldn't be cut, however I do know that I definitely wouldn't relegate Manly because they are the only team in the North of Sydney, that's not to say that their business doesn't need to be completely restructured, but unless the NRL plan on replacing them with a new team to represent NS in the NRL (or switch them with the Bears) they are safe.
Well in case of relegation, 1 or 2 teams go down, 1or2 go up, correct?
Forget who goes down, everyone has that figured out hypothetically opinionated (manly, cronulla, parra, sydney teams etc)
Who comes up and where are they from, no point relegating manly or gold coast if they run deadlast this year, then promote glebe and newtown
What happens when brsbane come last, or Melbourne?
Relegation won't work in NRL, and you cant say only sydney teams cop relogation that's unfair, were not england, crammed all near each other
I think we as fans of the game know whats good for our game, and dropping clubs isn't a habit we should form for the almighty dollar to prevail, promoting a lower tier team is good but it will take time for their roster to become 1st grade vs the rest of the league
This means you need a 1st grade roster in year 1 of your NRL debut, to not be relogated the following year

Unless it boils down to worst team in a decade relogated, add up the spoons then relegate acordingly, add up the wins in 2nd teir, depending on the area/region
Example cowboys/dropped, Northern pride promoted. but stars need to align to have the pride win so many to be worthy. Its all too fickle, but again a decade can have massive roster changes. Just Spit balling ideas
 
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The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,762
Well in case of relegation, 1 or 2 teams go down, 1or2 go up, correct?
Forget who goes down, everyone has that figured out hypothetically opinionated (manly, cronulla, parra, sydney teams etc)
Who comes up and where are they from, no point relegating manly or gold coast if they run deadlast this year, then promote glebe and newtown
What happens when brsbane come last, or Melbourne?
Relegation won't work in NRL, and you cant say only sydney teams cop relogation that's unfair, were not england, crammed all near each other
I think we as fans of the game know whats good for our game, and dropping clubs isn't a habit we should form for the almighty dollar to prevail, promoting a lower tier team is good but it will take time for their roster to become 1st grade vs the rest of the league
This means you need a 1st grade roster in year 1 of your NRL debut, to not be relogated the following year

Unless it boils down to worst team in a decade relogated, add up the spoons then relegate acordingly, add up the wins in 2nd teir, depending on the area/region
Example cowboys/dropped, Northern pride promoted. but stars need to align to have the pride win so many to be worthy. Its all too fickle, but again a decade can have massive roster changes. Just Spit balling ideas

You are talking about promotion and relegation, I'm not suggesting that the NRL should have promotion and relegation, that'd be a very bad idea for a lot of reasons.

I'm only suggesting that the best method of rationalisation for the NRL would be to relegate the unwanted teams into a lower tier, there're a lot of ways that the NRL could go about replacing the teams that are relegated, they could groom their expansion teams in the lower tiers then simply give them the vacated licenses when they are ready, they could take the vacant licenses and sell them to the highest bidder, etc, etc, it'd really depend on the circumstances at the time and the route that the NRL wants to take.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
11,957
Ok i had thought if you drop one in relegation then you'd need to promote one, otherwise whats the point in relegating? Its just droping them
 

flippikat

Bench
Messages
4,440
Ok i had thought if you drop one in relegation then you'd need to promote one, otherwise whats the point in relegating? Its just droping them

Promoting implies that a team is in NSW or Qld cup already, but some hopefuls would be brand new clubs, not currently in ANY competition.
 
Messages
1,421
All relegation and relocation talk has to stop. It’s dead In The water in Australia. In the USA the nfl clubs that are privately owned up and change states all the time because there is 360million people there and they can afford to do it.

Try that here and move Cronulla to Perth and not 1 shire sharks fan will still follow the Perth sharks progress and the Perth fans won’t follow anyone but the pirates and rightly so.

We seriously need to strengthen what we have and stop looking for this magic fix.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,762
All relegation and relocation talk has to stop. It’s dead In The water in Australia. In the USA the nfl clubs that are privately owned up and change states all the time because there is 360million people there and they can afford to do it.

Try that here and move Cronulla to Perth and not 1 shire sharks fan will still follow the Perth sharks progress and the Perth fans won’t follow anyone but the pirates and rightly so.

I'm no big fan of relocation (though on the odd occasion it does make sense), but if the Sharks were to be relocated and all their fans in Cronulla stopped following the Sharks it wouldn't make a difference (in fact it'd be totally expected) because the whole point of relocation is to trade one market (and by extension fan-base) for another.

Why relocation works better in the US is cause their sports market isn't nearly as top heavy as it is in Australia, in other words they have multiple tiers of competitions that are viable products that are well supported, and most people in the country follow more then one team between those tiers (normally they follow their collage's team or a local high school team and an NFL team), so when an NFL team is relocated those fans who are disenfranchised by that are still patrons of the sport and following the sport through on of their other teams.

And to be brutally frank if there's to be a relocation in NRL (not that I'd like to see that happen) and to use your example Cronulla is moved to Perth, as long as the old fan base is replaced and more (i.e. the club trades 12k active supports for 16k or whatever) and the time and money is put into the Shire to entice a new generation of fans of the sport from the Shire,then in the grand scheme of things that'd be a good result for the NRL and the sport if they could pull it off. At the end of the day that is the brutal nature of the business side of the sport.

We seriously need to strengthen what we have and stop looking for this magic fix.

You've got it backwards, we need to stop looking for a magic fix to so how make an over saturated market sustainable and just do what needs to be done so we can move forward.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,762
So what is gained when a club is put in Adelaide and has 12000 members at the sacrifice of 1 or 2 rationalised clubs?

Access to a new market, millions of dollars added to the value of sponsorship and Tv rights contracts, on the ground support for local growth in SA giving the NRL a good opportunity to build a strong supporters base and juniors pool in SA given time, also relieve pressure on the Sydney market which will make it easier for the other Sydney clubs to get by, etc, etc.

BTW, why would the NRL rationalise two clubs and replace them with one? I don't think that anybody thinks that the NRL needs to be reduced in size.
 

MrE_Assassin

Juniors
Messages
444
Manly forever: Sea Eagles rally their fans
https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/02/22/manly-forever-sea-eagles-rally-their-fans/

Is this a sign that the Manly hierarchy are worried they may be pushed off their ‘peninsula’? If the video is meant to be a membership drive it doesn’t inspire me to sign up. Sounds like a call to arms of the committed to stage a Souths-like protest if they are asked to relocate or lose the licence.

That coupled with reports the Lyall gorman is being courted for the head job at Cricket NSW, is this the first rat to jump off a sinking ship?
 

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